Hearthpwn

So I have been thinking a lot about how to make Tempo Rogue viable. In my opinion, the biggest thing holding it back is the inability to get past Sprint without losing tempo. So along those lines:

What do you think about a 4-1 charge 6 cost pirate with Battlecry: Your opponent's minions cost 5 more next turn. Essentially, this would help clean up the board and would only require you to deal with 1 turn worth of minions when you play Sprint on 7.

Alternatively, what about adding "Your opponent's minions cost 2 more next turn" to Sprint itself?

I am not certain I see the tools in this expansion to put an end to the hunter trend. What does everybody think?

Definitely think it's one of the more powerful cards announced in the set. It basically has an immediate impact because as you said removal will activate it. 

Yes. Speculation was they were going to make the discard mandatory which I actually would have preferred, but this should bring it in line as well.

I definitely think this means some of the current Druid cards will be reclassified as beasts. Otherwise I don't get it.

Quote from Dracygon »

Quote from Diviner1 »

Yes, everyone wanting to use this card in Miracle please do.  You guys are already free wins on the ladder, this card will make it even more so.  People saying this card is good obviously do not analyze cards past face value.  Sure, it sounds real good on paper, but in practice good luck getting full or even half value out of this dumpster trash.


How does this card even help rouge?  Rouge's problems right now are lack of draw outside of auctioneer and with auctioneer, rogue then depends on drawing auctioneer early will at the same time not drawing dead draws to survive the early game.  Rogue's early game depends on almost perfect draws while at the same time using its weapon to finish off enemies, which at the cost of life, can be super disadvantageous against hunter and zoo (which are generally free wins against rogue, the matchup is that bad).  They also have the problem of not having enough damage to kill off decks like warrior or priest, which can be frustrating.

What does rogue actually need?  Some sort of decent draw mechanic outside of auctioneer dependence so that Blizzard can nerf the card into the ground while at the same time making rogue viable with new cards and a better engine that does not depend on a "miracle."  This card does not do anything to help it, adds RNG, and is basically assassinate (which is not run in any deck outside of arena), unless you combo a 4 mana card which outside of preparation (a dead draw card outside of auctioneer) cannot be played early (I rather tech an ooze in the deck to deal with weapons anyways).

This card is not what rogue needs.  Rogue will still die to any sort of aggro without perfect draws and good luck finding room for this in miracle anyways. lol

This is as a catch all statement is inaccurate. While hunter may be a 50-50 depending on Undertaker shenanigans and whether you draw a Backstab or not, depending on the variant of Rogue you're playing, Rogue vs. Zoo is grossly in Rogue's favor. Most miracle rogue's have early minions now that can fight for board control, add to that the fact that they have cheap removal and they can keep the board clear while developing their own. I've tried 2 types of miracle rogue, the combo heavy variant that runs 20+ spells and Arcane Golem definitely struggles, but the more common miracle that runs Cold Blood and no real finisher is ridiculously favored against zoo. I don't even draw Gadgetzan in a good % of my wins against them.

Not only that, but the fact that you have minions means you aren't reliant on Auctioneer either. You can survive long enough to draw the Auctioneer and get a good turn off around Turn 8. Tempo Rogue needs good card draw, Miracle Rogue is fine on card draw in its current form assuming you run the standard Azure Drakes, Thalnos, 3-4x Shiv / Fan of Knives, and Auctioneer.

Ya this guy really is clueless on the matchups. Before all of the deathrattle miracle was like 75% against zoo, it's probably more like 55% now but if you think zoo is a free win you are playing rogue wrong. Miracle is also still like 75% vs priest and at least 55% vs warrior. I think hunter is slightly favoured against most miracle decks.

However, the assessment of tempo rogue is correct. I tried hundreds of games trying to make it work and you do just run out of cards too frequently, and if you try to sub in weaker cards with card draw you just can't keep tempo.

The usefulness of this card will depend on the quality of weapons in the new expansion. The current Miracle build sometimes runs swamp ooze -- I assume this will take its place in those builds.

Quote from sageturk »

Ok i never even for a second believed that silence would actually become a thing since it landed with such a thud after Naxx... but with all this mech buffing that's gonna be happening on every turn from every class, part of me thinks that silence is gonna finally get some traction.

What are you talking about, everybody is running owl these days.

The problem with this card is that when I play any version of paladin I find TSC to almost always be the best turn 4 play, meaning the weapon gets at most one swing.

Quote from AriBlue »

Which would then need to be compared to the likelyhood of a match against that hard counter (as well as a rating as to how hard of the counter the match was) with such a small set of archetype decks being played, it's no wonder people run into their counter so much, afterall that is the point of the meta, to view what is being played and try to counter it.

The likely-hood problem is taken care of by alternating decks. Example:

Handlock - hard counter hunter

Hunter - hard counter priest

Then you just have to test if you encounter priests more often as a handlock or as a hunter. If you encounter them significantly more often as a hunter, you would have pretty good evidence that something strange is going on.

Of course it's a ridiculous hypothesis as someone else pointed out, because for every bad match-up you have someone else has a good one, and since you play people near your rank you probably have similar win %s meaning the idea that Blizzard is favoring one of you over the other is pretty dumb.

But anyways, that would be a simple way to prove it if this was indeed a thing.

Quote from sigtrent »

Anecdotal evidence is not especially convincing to anyone who doesn't have the same expereince.

If you really think it is the case and want to persuade folks then you need to do some controlled testing. Log every game you play and make notes. Encourage others to do the same. Calculate the odds and margins of error on the sample size and see if you can make a significant finding.

Just to give you an idea for experimental design that you could use, you could pick a pair of decks and alternate between them every game, choosing a hard counter for each to see how many times it shows up in one matchup vs the other.

Seems like confirmation bias would be way more likely than the game being fixed, especially since it's 0-sum.

Quote from Khinjy »

I think this is a /situationnal/really good card but not before turn 7, like this you can use it and drop a really good legendary like Ragnaros(or even better, Death Wing !) and hex just after. This is a good card for the legendary control shaman that disappeared from the current meta.

This comment is a massive facepalm. If you are waiting to turn 7+ to hopefully pull a high-cost legendary out of your hand, why not just play the legendary itself and save your hex?

This card is total crap and, unless there are synergies with other shaman cards yet to be announced, it will see almost no play at all.

Seems comparable to Guardian of Kings to me and that card sees some play, so I could see it in some control warrior decks.

Based on what we have seen of the new expansion I think this nerf rumor is more plausible. It looks like the expansion will heavily use the "Spare Parts" mechanic which are all 1 mana spells. Blizzard I beg you if you do nerf auctioneer please make a rogue-specific card that keeps miracle viable.