Hearthpwn

Quote from PetiteMouche >>

Quote from OoZuNoO >>

Quote from PetiteMouche >>

 

 

It doesn't that's why I pay money to get this privilege to experiment a little bit earlier than everyone else.

And no it really wouldn't help with the community feeling that build diversity and fun are at an all time low if F2P got to experiment a tiny bit more early with some epic card that may or may not be elwynn boar, I don't see the logic in that it's just random words put together to form a sentence.

Also, F2P is not denied all experimentation, just most epic and legendary cards. You should realistically have all the commons and rares on day one and multiple epics and at least 2 legendaries. And they made the reward track and they keep improving it specifically for those players to catch up, they sometimes even give free legos on top of all of that. But it is never enough for these people. So i'm sorry I just don't buy that "oh but it would help fix so many problems" BS, people wouldn't magically stop complaining about very deep core issues with the game because of some reward track update, you just want more free stuff more quickly and it's totally okay for you to want that but don't make it look like you wanna do good for the game. You could already be at level 75 on the reward track if you spent more time playing y'know. I'm close and I don't play a lot.

That is not for you to decide.

Of course not, it's for the meta to decide that was my point, it's the meta that influences what we play and what we enjoy at any given time, and in a meta where the boar is just another unfortunate meme card, you're not gonna have fun with it and you're not even gonna play it because your 15% win rate will drive you crazy in less than a day and you will switch to a more usable deck. I am statistically very likely to be correct, but good for you if you're the rare type that actually cares about having fun more than winning, even after a losing streak. You're a better human than most of us that unconsciously link winning and having fun.

My point is basically, for an especially evil company like Blizzard, I think they are doing a great job with F2P in Hearthstone alreay, and maybe you should start by being thankful for that before going on about your tiny boar issue. Of course, they could always do better, they could even give us every card for free if they wanted, they really could. But be realistic for a second, just look at the awful WoW business model for comparison. Probably the worst i have even seen in my entire life. You have to pay a monthly subscription + pay new expansions at full price + you still get pay-to-win style online shop. Or even vanilla Hearthstone in 2014, without duplicate protection or reward track or free stuff. Can you imagine how awful it was to open packs ? That orange glow, it should make you happy right ? Well no, it's just your fifth Gruul. You are very lucky to be F2P today, seriously.

You literally get so much free stuff nowadays as F2P, thanks to all the whales that finance this "free" game, but you still gotta ask for more. And they'll give you more, cause they don't want you to ruin their image for no reason, so, good for you I guess.

Now, I understand what you're asking is very minor, I hope you understand i'm not upset about the specifics of your issue, I just think F2P people are often way more negative than they should, your situation has upsides too you know. You still get to have fun with a ton of different cards and game modes and free rewards and it doesn't cost you 300 bucks a year like stupid me.

 Holy jesus, you did not understand a single thing I said, even though we speak the same language (not my mother language but still). Perception can be so fascinating (i'm a psychologist so this intrigues me lol).

Im NOT asking for more free stuff, AT ALL. Just that the build-arounds become available on the track earlier, so people can experiment more during launch week.

"it's for the meta to decide that was my point, it's the meta that influences what we play and what we enjoy at any given time" - This statement tells me you dont care much about the deckbuilding aspect of the game, and thats fine. But a LOT of people do. The joy of every Johnny out there is to find a viable off-meta deck or an unique interaction that sometimes work and wins them the game. High winrates are NOT the main goal for these players. Hell, I look at VS reports/HS Replay to find out what i'm gonna face the most on ladder, not to copy anything!

This thread was interesting: everyone who enjoys deckbuilding agreed with me, while everyone who dont care about it and just want to win hated my suggestion. Johnnies and Spikes dont get along no matter what game it is huh.

Quote from PetiteMouche >>

I mean at least you will get them somewhere in the middle of the expansion, without the reward track you would get no boar at all. Level 75 on the reward track is not that hard if you just complete your daily and weekly quests you'll get there in a couple weeks

As long as it's not an important meta card I don't mind that it's late on the track, what are you even gonna experiment with the card ? All elwynn boar decks are made and refined for all classes in both format since day 2 of the expansion, they're pretty straight forward decks, just add deathrattle/copy synergy and card draw. And since they are not super powerful deck, even the best versions like the wild priest one, you're not gonna have a lot of fun with the card anyway

 

 That is not for you to decide.

The boar is just an example dude, thats not the point. The point Im trying to make is: Experimentation is a privilege denied to f2p players, but it doesnt have to be. The reward track could give everyone the whacky build-arounds EARLY for free (since most f2p players would NEVER spend dust on them, ever) to promote more people experimenting with different stuff at launch.

Right now, all f2p players do at launch week is play aggro to farm the ones experimenting, then netdeck whatever is strong after the week is over. Thats the entire reason the meta in this game gets stale fast, cuz even if theres a metabreaker out there, the majority of ppl cant rly look for it cuz their dust have already been spent. Does that sound fun to you?

Build diversity is already at an all-time low right now, giving f2p players the interesting build-arounds to experiment for free early could help with that problem, thats all im saying.

As I said in other threads, HS is going through a gigantic transition right now: Team 5 wants faster games AND wants control to have faster wincons.

The problem is, achieving BOTH those objectives in a single expansion was simply impossible, they had to choose one to go with now and we all know which one they chose first.

I believe the mini-set is going to give control tools to survive longer/finish games faster, since they know any card game needs all three archetypes to have SOME level of representation to be healthy.

The meta right now is super unhealthy rn cuz its incomplete. We have 2/3 of a game, and the miniset will give us the missing third, thats what I think/hope.

Transitions are always difficult, they knew people would lose their shit, but if they believe its something the game needs going forward, I dont judge them.

Still believe the Warlock Quest needs a nerf though, it completely craps on the whole point of Wild being a place with more variety, that mode has only one deck now.

Quote from Banur >>

Quote from OoZuNoO >>

This should be one of the Reward Tracks's purposes imo: to give everyone EARLY access to highly gimmicky, highly experimental build-arounds that have a high risk of not working […]
I suspect the meta would have taken longer to settle if gimmicky build-arounds like Elwynn Boar were available much earlier on the track.

I don’t think the reward track should front-load highly hit-or-miss cards like the boar. It should rather have versatile cards that you can stick in pretty much every deck and get some usage out of.

I also don’t agree with the second point. I’m pretty sure there were enough people that tried boar decks, found them lacking and moved on to other decks. Even if it took a week or even a month longer, F2P players would then still sit on an epic they can’t play (and probably need a big collection to even get to a somewhat useful deck).

 I think thats EXACTLY what the track should aim for.

Experimentation is behind a gigantic paywall in this game, so only streamers/whales end up really testing and figuring out the meta. Everyone else just netdecks their discoveries cuz their dust is limited, which leads to the meta getting stale much faster. Giving away these cool build-arounds early could help improve that.

More people testing weird stuff = higher chances of metabreakers being found, thats the logic. If you're poor, dont want to experiment with anything and just netdeck whatever is good for cheap, theres always Face Hunter :).

Quote from Wada >>

The same reason why they're Epic

a new player doesn't want them, you have to have some experience with the game to be able to build and pilot an Elwynn Boar deck

so that's why they're offering actually usefull cards first

 Those you get through grind with packs/dust, since they are goals the f2p player are already aiming for anyways. No f2p will ever spend dust on cards like Elwynn Boar, unless they got lucky in packs/saved lots of dust and got all legendaries they wanted already.

Experimentation with gimmicky shit ends up being a Whale's privilege, which makes no sense since they would certainly welcome higher build diversity coming from the f2p crowd. Everyone's experience would improve imo.

Completely shutting down one of the games basic archetypes (control) threw the deckbuilding experience in the dumpster then set fire on it. Thats probably why this expansion has been so polarizing:

People who enjoy deckbuilding got the fattest middle finger (sorry Kibler), while the ones who dont care about it and just netdeck everything are having a blast with super fun, powerful decks who win fast and with style.

So in MtG terms: pure Johnnies got kicked in the balls, while pure Timmies got multiple orgasm jerkoffs. Spikes never care, they just play whats good anyways.

We get both golden boars at lvls 65 and 75 respectively, WHY?? 

No f2p player will ever craft them cuz we know we get them for free eventually, but waiting so long to get them means there are much less experimentation from the part of the masses with what seems like the most fun build-around card in HS history.

This should be one of the Reward Tracks's purposes imo: to give everyone EARLY access to highly gimmicky, highly experimental build-arounds that have a high risk of not working, but that would be fun to experiment with nonetheless. This could help a lot with overall build diversity and improve the experience of the f2p people who enjoy the deckbuilding aspect of the game.

I suspect the meta would have taken longer to settle if gimmicky build-arounds like Elwynn Boar were available much earlier on the track.

TL;DR - THINK ABOUT THE POOR TIMMIES/JOHNNIES DAMMNIT!

The meta is so bad it actually makes me yearn for a rock-paper-scissors format. Cant rly have that when quest zoolock has an agresssive playstyle + control tools + inevitability all in one deck LMFAO. Worst nerf patch ever.

I really enjoyed the work new Team 5 has done this last year, the minisets are a great way to shake up metas and Scholomance has become my favorite expansion of all time!

But you cant get it right all the time, no one can. And this time they REALLY didnt. Warlock quest is reaching Genn/Baku levels of cancer, and this time both in standard AND wild, something i've never seen before. 

The major point is a mistake i've seen them make many times over the years: they keep improving classes by ERASING THEIR WEAKNESSES. That has to stop. Warlock is now broken cuz its main weakness (self-inflicted dmg) can no longer be exploited, and instead has become a STRENGTH.

Erasing weaknesses is always bad and always lead to classes becoming unbalanced like this, was hoping they had learned their lesson by now. Still have more faith in this newer Team 5 than the old one, but this has certainly been their worst mistake so far.

Quote from FortyDust >>

What "control" actually means -- where the name "control" actually comes from -- is a deck that controls the game, and it comes from MtG. The original control deck used mechanisms in that game that don't even exist in Hearthstone, so anyone who thinks "pure" control exists in Hearthstone is misinformed.

There has been a lot of confusion over the years caused by people not really recognizing what control is about. It's not just a slow deck with expensive cards at the top of its curve. A lot of people have complained that their "control deck" can't beat aggro, when what they have actually built is a just slow, value-oriented midrange deck.

In Hearthstone, the primary meaning of control is a deck that's designed to survive aggressive decks and win with bigger payoff cards after having stabilized. This is usually achieved through some combination of removal and healing. Many Warlock decks of today are great examples of control. One problem Priest has run up against is that its best healing and removal have rotated out or been nerfed. What's left is situational or inconsistent, and that makes it really hard to build a decent control deck. Warlock has much better tools in both areas. Warrior, similarly, has never been lacking in either department. Armor gain was a bit sketchy before Stormwind, but it's better now.

So, going by the basic definition of "control," the most important question is: Can you build a deck that consistently beats normal aggro? The answer is yes. Several classes have archetypes that do exactly that. The problem is that a lot of the present-day aggro isn't "normal aggro."

Combo decks stand outside the traditional aggro-control speed spectrum. They are usually slower (control-combo) because it usually takes a long time to put the combo pieces together. But Stormwind has introduced several quick, aggressive combo archetypes (aggro-combo and midrange-combo) that can OTK a control deck before it has a chance to react.

But it's important to remember that combo usually beats control anyway, no matter how fast or slow the combo deck is. So while you would normally expect control to beat aggro, it cannot beat aggro-combo. In Stormwind, control loses a lot of games it feels like it should win -- it's normally unheard of for control to lose on turn 6, because combo usually can't get up to speed so quickly. Now it can, hence the frustration.

Then there is the other natural enemy of control: midrange. Midrange doesn't beat control as consistently as combo, but a well-built midrange deck should still have the advantage. The prevalence of Handbuff Paladin, a midrange deck with snowballing tempo, makes life extremely difficult for control. Handbuff is both the strongest deck and the most-played (as the two so often go hand in hand).

Control would normally do fine farming wins against aggro, even if it loses regularly to the midrange decks of the meta. But now both of its major weaknesses (combo and midrange) are all over the place. Normal aggro is still present to an extent, but not enough to give control a positive win rate. So while control isn't technically "dead," it's also not really worth playing at the moment.

Nerfing Handbuff Paladin would be the biggest help it might bring down the population a bit AND give control a chance to win more games against it. Nerfing the questlines, on the other hand, while probably good for the meta overall, isn't going to help control all that much. Control will still lose the vast majority of the time against any kind of combo strategy.

Theres a recent post on HS reddit about them, here: https://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/p5al6c/fyi_an_easy_guide_to_deck_archetypes_because_they/

You cant completely apply those definitions to HS control cuz of fatigue, a feature unique to this game. Simply surviving and outlasting your opponent could never be a primary wincon in MtG, but in HS, fatigue made it possible. I didnt find any consensus on what this decks definition is, so I just invented one for it :). 

Quote from Kurgo >>

It's always kind of fun to see people use words without really giving 2 seconds of thought about the meaning of said words. What would be consideredpure control? I'd say something that was born literally along with the game, such as "pure" zoo, "pure" miracle and what have you (idiotic definitions but hey, apparently there's a need to use them). And, pray tell, what's the pure control that was basically the only deck known as "control" back in 2014? Why yes, it was control warrior. And do you know what control warrior had? An endgame. What Iksar doesn't like (and let's be clear, the  vast majority of the playerbase doesn't like it either, that's pretty much obvious) are control decks that do absolutely nothing but remove remove remove and just wait for their opponent to get bored to death, basically. While I personally don't mind playing against those deck as they're hilariously easy to farm, I can definitely see why control decks having an actual win condition other than their opponent being sleep-deprived would be prefereable to the alternative. How many control decks in the history of hearthstone had that "just bore your opponent to death" strategy? I can recall some kinds of odd warrior (those without the quest, clearly), dr boom warrior and last expansion's control priest, of those that were either good or viable. Even old tank up warrior during LoE had an actual plan since it ran Elise. 

But yeah, there's nothing pure about your idea of control. If anything it's a bastardised definition that you call pure just because you like it and for no other reason. In addition to that, from what I recall Iksar said they'd be fine with such a deck existing so long as it wasn't good/popular (so basically, otk dh since its inception, a tier 3/4 deck until recently). The odds of such a deck existing now are 0 with the current state of hearthstone but that doesn't mean such a deck won't exist in the future, especially if their plans of a massive lowering of the power-level will become a thing.

But yeah, if the only archetype you like playing is the ResidentSleeper control type, you better get used to the idea of only playing tier 3 decks if you're lucky, because you're unlikely to get anything better than that. Cheers.

 If you had pulled your head out of your ass for 2 seconds, you'd have realized your question was answered already, and that you basically just repeated everything that was said (though in a very douchebaggy way).

I said "pure", not "classic control". I named "pure" the control decks that only care about controlling the board, surviving and nothing else, in your words, the ResidentSleeper ones. If you dont like my definition, well.. ok buddy? 

Quote from fusilli >>

Quote from OoZuNoO >>

Quote from SlydE >>

 

 

 CW has traditionally run topend minions. Wallet warrior?? As for priest, it's traditionally run some topend too. No wincon fatigue decks are a more recent idea. 

 These decks win the moment they get out of reach of the opponents wincon (usually aggro) or get ahead in the resource management (control mirrors). Nothing stops them from running big minions. Maybe a better way to picture it is, they very rarely destroy the enemy hero themselves, they prolong the game until the opponent concedes.

Quote from SlydE >>

I am not really sure what "pure control" even means anymore. There have been so many styles called "control" now:

Warrior: Value running more high-end. First by running more big threats, later including C'THUN and Dr. Boom hero

-Fatigue: Usually running Elysiana, but also coldlights and Deathlords.

-Big, cheating out big minions ahead of curve, but other classes do this better.

Druid: Big/taunt/clown

Jades: Will always outvalue you, but is slow, and it can still lose to tech cards or more explosive "control" decks.

Mage: Highlander. This is probably the purest control deck in the current Wild meta, but it requires smart teaching to have a chance in some matchups without hurting others too much.

Mill/Grinder: Were a thing a few times, but probably won't ever be viable again.

Priest: Big. This is actually a real control deck, and if you don't hit a nuts opening or your respool gets messed up it is very clear that it is one. However, this deck is also FASTER than most midrange decks, and aggro needs to kill this before turn 6 despite healing and removal.

Removal/healing/discover control. These decks were super reactive and designed to win with fatigue or slowly hitting face with whichever leftover minions they had when the opponent was out of resources.

Warlock: Handlock would probably barely be in the "explosive control" as it is usually defending against decks like classic druids, but Evenlock is midrange imo.

-Renolock is a control deck similar to Reno mage, running a lot of the same cards and requiring careful tech and play.

Control paladin and shaman were only niche decks a long time ago, and all other slow decks are combo or midrange imo.

So, what is "pure control" and how many of the old archetypes really go in this category? I would expect mostly priest and warrior decks ...

 Tried to make it implicit, but english isnt my first language so pardon me.

By "Pure Control" I meant decks whose primary wincon is to just outlast the opponent's wincon, completely reactive gameplay. CW and Control Priest are classic examples. Those will probably disappear for good, considering what we know so far. All other forms of control that include some form of proactive wincon should still be around.

Quote from Carfusso >>

I've seen numerous takes in this thread, but 1 time of argument that I couldn't stand is using early RoS meta as "proof" that fatigue games are frustrating so I'm simply here to remind people: THAT WAS AN EXEPTION DUE TO THE FACT THAT Archivist Elysiana (one of the biggest desing mistakes of this game, together with any card that allows to increase deck size by more than 4/5 cards) WAS THE ONLY REASON THE META WAS BAD AS THAT CARD ALLOWED GAMES TO IGNORE FATIGUE FORCING THE INFAMOUS 40 MINUTES SHITFESTS.

As for an actual answer to the OP...
I enjoy exactly the type of decks the OP described as "pure control", exausting my opponent of all of his resources is HANDS DOWN my favourite playstyle and (despite what some people here said) HS is basically the only game that allows such a playstyle to exist as:
1)card design has (more or less, the current situation was the last straw for this) allowed such a thing to exist, unlike e.g. LoR where ALL lategame wincons are unreactable (to those that know what I'm talking about..you can't deny that Aurelion/Lissandra/Maokai/(sometimes)Nautilus's LvL up effects may as well be "the opponent surrenders"...and I could go on...similar concepts stand for MtG)
2)fatigue is a unique mechanic...the only one that allows TRUE reactive decks to exist.

In conclusion I feel that ignoring such an advantage is 1 of the biggest mistakes this game can make.

(as a sidenote/conclusion...to whoever wrote "Learn to spell the word "philosophy" correctly and your argument will have more merit."...fk off, form is beyond meaningless and the only truly important part of a discussion is getting your arguments across in a clear and non offensive way)

 LOL just ignore the trolls, not worth the effort :D. 

Thats the thing, they are not ignoring fatigue, just giving us new, faster ways to interact with it (questlock being the best example). They will probably give us more ways to use fatigue to our advantage in the future, ways that dont include just surviving until the opponent decks out by him/herself.

Quote from TwistedCardmaster >>

I don't know about you, but for me control is not really about healing and removing until the opponent is bored to death (that's how most people perceive control), but rather about playing expensive cards for 8-10 mana, managing my limited(!) resources, planning my moves in advance and predicting what my opponent can and cannot do in the following turns. The key thing though is to stay alive long enough. It doesn't matter to me how I achieve this, by healing and removing (like Priest or Walorck) or by playing minions (like Paladin or Warrior), I just want to be able to defend myself until I meet my late game win conditions.

You know what my favorite non-control deck was, that gave me almost all of these? Old Quest Druid with Untapped Potential! Deck had control-ish playstyle in early turns (using Wrath, BEEEES!!!, Swipe or Starfall) and minion based win condition (Oasis Surger, Cenarius, Hidden Oasis, Ysera, Unleashed), so it couldn't just exhaust opponent's resources, but had to fight for the board constantly. It was also pretty fast in winning and losing, so matches weren't 15 minutes long.

Maybe that's the right direction for future "control" decks?

 I believe so! I rly liked the Control Warrior I took to legend last month, which also felt in line with their new view on the archetype: you play as pure control only against aggro decks, but play as combo against other control decks (in this case it was Silas otk).

Control is now about surviving only until you reach a power spike later in the game (which doesnt necessarily mean otk), they just want to give control a way to finish games faster in the mirror matchups, something I appreciate. The problem is giving it the means to prolong the game past turn 10, which is impossible rn.