• 2

    posted a message on DE Felguard?

    He isn't a card that sees any play, but I know that he did show up in StrifeCro's potential Krul Warlock list if the meta becomes more Jade-heavy.

    The idea is that he is good for Krul the Unshackled in the same way that Infested Tauren is good for N'Zoth, the Corruptor.  It allows you to play the card defensively, blocking an attacker that might otherwise prevent you from using it.  

    Again, this is simply theoretical on StrifeCro's part and I'm not sure I would necessarily keep it just for that reason.  But it does show that sometimes old cards can be potentially revisited in the future.

    Posted in: Card Discussion
  • 2

    posted a message on Post STB nerf, Pirate Warrior still alive & well...
    Quote from Purpenflurb >>

    The point of the nerfs wasn't to get rid of pirate warrior.  It was to prevent STB + Patches from showing up in half of your ladder games.  I don't mind pirate warrior at all personally, it is a fast deck, but it is also a relatively fair deck.  It's not like shaman that can play aggressively, then switch to a value plan, then burn you out from 15 health.  Some players like to play aggro, and aggro helps to prevent decks from getting too greedy.  

     This is the best summary in the thread.  
    Pirate Warriors have insane damage potential and if you draw no answers they can generate frustrating blowout games.  But Pirate Warrior has certain, identifiable weaknesses:
    • Their weapons, especially Arcanite Reaper, are very weak to removal
    • They are stopped cold by taunts
    • Their deck is very low value overall so they will run out of cards rapidly and go into topdeck mode by turn 5-6

    Again, none of the counters are 100%.  It is, after all, a very good Tier 1 deck.  But Aggro Shaman had the same damage potential AND multiple powerful class minions AND higher value AND wasn't countered by weapon removal AND had Maelstrom Portal to counter other aggressive decks AND high spell damage to bypass taunts.  It was better than Pirate Warrior in nearly every conceivable way except it was harder to play, which meant it took more practice to get those better results.  

    So it isn't a failure of the nerfs that Pirate Warrior is still around.  It will be a failure of the nerfs if Aggro Shaman is still as successful as it was before.

    Posted in: General Discussion
  • 6

    posted a message on New Deck RNG Ruining Arena
    Quote from BigFatMurloc >>

    The whole point of arena changes was to deminish good players winrates. Basically a complete success for Blizzard.

     I would love to hear an actual source on that, because that sounds like a baseless accusation.
    Posted in: The Arena
  • 3

    posted a message on Blizzard doesn't care about high skill players

    @Hoothout Okay, now if you will permit me the same courtesy I want to express as clearly as possible my own position.

    First, Blizzard's job is to maximize the enjoyment of the game for the most amount of people over a long period of time.  They will certainly try to support many different types of players, but sometimes it is not possible to support them all at once.  It is as the saying goes: “You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time."

    Second, I would argue (in agreement with Blizzard) that the keys to generating enjoyment are variety and interactivity.  It is important that players experience a variety of games, and that these games involve an active struggle between the two decks for supremacy.  Blizzard has emphasized the importance of the board in this contest, as that is where the action happens.

    Now, Blizzard has not been successful with their stated goals.  We have Shamans pushing upward of 30% of the ladder and the pirate package being played in 50%+ of the games at high ranks.  This is the antithesis of variety.  They have clearly made errors, and have owned up to them.  They have explained that they did not anticipate cards such as Jade Lightning and Maelstrom Portal to be used in aggro, and were sorely surprised when they were.  Claims that Blizzard is purposefully creating this situation are baseless conspiracy theories.

    So why is it that Blizzard keeps erring on the side of aggression?  Why don't they "learn" from their mistakes?  Why don't they do what Asmodeus recommends and print more powerful, flexible reactionary cards?  I would argue, and this is clearly where we differ, that a "control meta" would be far, far worse than what we have now.

    Max McCall recently explained part of this idea in his post about combo decks.  The essence of the problem isn't that Blizzard "hates" control or combo.  They are good, important, and are supported every single expansion.  The issue is that when they make up the majority of the games they are a problem, because even if they are high skill they are low interaction.  

    Allow me to use this game as an example.  Are there interesting turns?  Certainly.  But notice how many of them are Hero Power -> Pass, or turns in which StrifeCro purposefully plays nothing because he is trying to force his opponent to cap on cards.  As a one-off, this is interesting.  It is different than normal (variety) and so a unique experience about how to think about the game in a new way, and certainly required a greater degree of skill and understanding than playing his entire hand out by turn 5.  But would you really want a game in which the common strategy is to play nothing for several turns?  To have game after game feel like a Mexican standoff?

    This is why I am also very excited about Renomage and Renolock as decks.  They are much more active and dynamic compared to the old school of control decks, and offer the possibility that one day we can have a slower meta which still involves engaging gameplay.  Does this involve making control more "aggressive"?  Yes, it does.  But truly, if the majority of the ladder ever becomes classic Control Warrior the game will suffer.

    Posted in: General Discussion
  • 1

    posted a message on Blizzard doesn't care about high skill players
    Quote from Falbrogna >>
    Do you ever manage to comprehend the context and point of a post or always stop at the words of it?
     How would you differentiate "rule" and "dominate" in the context of Hearthstone decks, then?  I was also misled by Hooghout's shifting terminology, and committed precisely the same error Tze did when reading his posts.
    Quote from Killzun >>
     Well FUK Blizzard. I cancelled my WoW accounts and let them know it was because of Hearthstone. FUK BLIZZ, FUK BLIZZ.
    DO NOT SPEND YOUR MONEY ON BLIZZARD.
    The short version: developers very rarely make changes based on subs because people who stop playing due to specific changes are remarkably small subset.
    Posted in: General Discussion
  • 1

    posted a message on Blizzard doesn't care about high skill players

    Okay, so now that we've apparently gotten our terms crossed...let's try this again.

    @Hooghout, your concern is specifically that decks which have "aggressive" strategies are have held too much influence on the history of Hearthstone.  Furthermore, the reason they have been too common is due to the mismanagement by Team 5.  

    And to avoid any confusion:

    • Your classification of an "aggressive" deck is one which contains burst damage, in the form of charge minions, weapons, or spells.   
    • "Influence" can be generally construed as being played too commonly and being too successful, from your point of view.
    • Finally, "mismanagement" can be understood as Team 5 either excessively supporting "aggressive" decks directly, or through incompetence not properly designing "non-aggressive" decks

    Did I miss anything?  Specifically, am I misrepresenting your arguments in any way?  Is there anything that you wish to add to clarify on your position?  Am I twisting your words?

    Posted in: General Discussion
  • 1

    posted a message on Blizzard doesn't care about high skill players
    Quote from Hooghout >>
    Came Copernicus around and said: hey guys the earth is round. No said the church, we have centuries of experience to show that the earth is flat. You might get the point.
    Saying my observations are "incoherent" is a contradictio in terminis. Observations can be right or wrong, not incoherent. Only analysis can be coherent or incoherent. But I won't go to deep into epistemology.
    My observations are widely acclaimed to be the case. Nothing new what I wrote. As I mentioned. You have people who observe and think and you have those who just adore and defend.
    Renolock? well then, greetings from Amsterdam.
     The desperation with which you put on airs is astounding, and also moderately humorous when so completely off base.
    In any case, I do not believe that an attempt to exhaustively argue your points would be productive.  The problem is your basic premise is incorrect: aggro hasn't always been the #1 in the meta.  It is at this time, but certainly not always.  Aggro has been favored by players because short games are better than long games for climbing the ladder (and other reasons), but this isn't a balance problem within the game itself.  It is reasonably likely that despite this bias we will be seeing a midrange meta after the upcoming nerfs.  Aggro will still exist, and many players will still play it, but that doesn't make it an "aggro meta."  It means it continues to exist as as an archetype and you can't ignore it as a possibility when queuing up.
     
    Posted in: General Discussion
  • 3

    posted a message on Blizzard doesn't care about high skill players
    Quote from scorpyon >>
     The mistake here is in assuming that having random elements in any game removes the necessity (or ability) for skill...
     Well, let us be clear.  In chess the direct actions of the players are what determine the outcome of the game.  Calling it "luck" when the opponent messes up, or "randomness" when a player makes an unexpected move is arguing semantics.  Everything that happened (after the coin toss to determine who goes first) was a result of player actions and not any secondary factors.  Therefore everything that happened was within their control, and we can reasonably classify it as "skill" (and whatever that entails).
    Randomness does not remove skill from a game, but it limits is maximum impact.  In chess skill has some ~95% skill.  Other games can have more randomness, which as you mention leads to employing different strategies and planning.  That's fine and makes them different, but the bottom line is that sometimes if the randomness goes against you....you lose, no matter how good you are.
    People who are very competent in their respective games hate randomness in any form since it's what keeps them from always being the best.  The average player doesn't mind it as much since this situation favors them sometimes (when against superior players) and not others (when against inferior ones).  Forums such as these tend to inordinately attract mid-to-high skill players (or at least those who wish to masquerade as high-skill players) and so are inordinately in favor of removing random elements.
    Posted in: General Discussion
  • 2

    posted a message on Blizzard doesn't care about high skill players
    Quote from PsyyKik >>
     Holding back on lightning bolt or lava burst to make a more efficient play later, or playing around a likely AoE  is hardly on the the level of math warrior though is it? It's a level above pirate warrior I'll grant you, but don't tell me aggro shaman is a difficult deck to play. It's really rather easy, and the fact you get that ultra fast win condition generally puts all the pressure on your opponent to play perfectly, not the other way around.
     Oh, I have no idea of "skill rankings" and I suspect you're correct that aggro Shaman is lower than patron Warrior in the grand scheme of things.  I don't play the deck at all, but my experience has been that usually people underestimate the amount of skill involved in playing any deck.  With some experience you can usually find different angles to your plays that you didn't notice when you first started with the deck.  I may hate going against the deck (and the class as a whole), but I don't want that to cloud my judgment.
    Posted in: General Discussion
  • 12

    posted a message on Rip ;Dragons

    I won't miss dragons much, mostly because I feel like they've gone off the rails from their original design.  Let me explain:

    • Big minions, such as Dragons, became unplayable after Naxx/GvG
    • Blizzard decides one way to fix this is to give a bonus for having one in your hand; sure you can't play your Ysera against aggro, but you can play your Blackwing Technician
    • Blackrock Mountain dragons are essentially a failure; the benefits are not great enough to justify
    • In order to compensate Blizzard starts to print more low-cost value dragons such as Twilight Guardian
    • Fast forward to now and actually running big dragons in your deck is obsolete.  Everybody just uses Netherspite Historian for heavy hitters

    So my issue is that I liked the original hand-dragon mechanic because it promoted running large, impactful minions which you wanted to play but which were dead cards against aggro.  Over time it has just become another fairly generic way to play over-statted minions on curve with Wyrmrest Agent into Twilight Guardian into Drakonid Operative.  I appreciate that the original model did not work and Blizzard had to do something, but I feel no fondness for the place we've ended up.

    Posted in: General Discussion
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