Hearthpwn

Quote from tommytruck >>

Quote from Mysticjbyrd >>

Quote from tommytruck >>

"Non-Interactive" doesn't really bother me.  As someone who played competitive sports, I am not of the opinion that I owe my opponent the opportunity to score.  Blow-outs are perfectly fine, in my opinion.

Yah, you do....  You have ensure both teams have the same goal setup.

Since both players start with the same 30 life total, consider that point covered.

Then you have a very narrow view of what the goal is.

Quote from tommytruck >>

"Non-Interactive" doesn't really bother me.  As someone who played competitive sports, I am not of the opinion that I owe my opponent the opportunity to score.  Blow-outs are perfectly fine, in my opinion.

Yah, you do....  You have ensure both teams have the same goal setup.

Dr Boom

/thread

Quote from Rhyolth >>

Quote from alexwolf1991 >>

The biggest problem with Shaman is that it lacks big tempo plays, and the second is lack of good AOE spells. Every single successful midrange-ish deck in Heartstone (Paladin, Mage, Druid, Hunter) has both, and Shaman lacks both, so its only normal its struggling a little bit against its midrange counterparts. Paladin has Aldor, t5 Quartermaster, t8 Muster + Quartermaster, Consecration, and Equality for tempo / board wipe, Druid has Innervate, Wild Growth, Darnassus Aspirant, and Swipe, Mage has Sorcerer's + spells, Flamewaker + spells, Mana Wyrm + spells, and Flamestrike, and Hunter has UtH, Hunter's Mark, Houndmaster, and Freezing Trap.

(...)

I tend to agree with that : our big tempo play is Fire Elemental, and with the game getting faster, he's now a bit to late to the party. I was expecting a mini-Fire Elemental to be released at some point, but i'm still waiting...

Quote from Donutdragon >>

Is overload a bad mechanic? Not really. The mechanic itself isn't the problem, It's that some cards with overload are bad. Some of them aren't worth the mana when you add the overload to the mana cost. Example: Lava Burst: 2+3=5 mana for 5 damage. Ancestral Knowledge: 2+2=4 mana for 2 cards. Compare this to Fireball and Arcane Intellect.

Also agree : the potential of overload is quite wasted righ now, but it could be awesome ... on the right cards, for example :
_ cards creating big Tempo swing : a card like Fire Elemental would be even stronger if it was a ble to hit the board sooner.
_ cards with a great Snowballing potential : Kodorider would be a lot more useful at 4 mana + overload, as you could create your first Kodo two turn earlier ... and just imagine how disgusting would T3 Fencing Coach, into T4 Kodo Rider + Hero Power.
_ cards with a great Combo potential : so many cheesy play would be possible if cards like Reincarnate or Ancestral Spirit were 0 mana cards with overload : Sylvanas + Reincarnate on t6 would be brutal, and T4 Piloted Shredder into T5 Ancestral Spirit + Faceless Manipulator would give you shredders for days.

In fact, in those cases, i wouldn't mind paying more mana overall : it's probably worth it.

You are talking about dream scenarios that rarely ever happen.  

Besides, they aren't going to edit old cards anymore.  That's just not going to happen!  Which is why the class is likely doomed in the future as well.

Quote from Novblast >>

Quote from RavenDrinkingBeer >>

Quote from macbx_jfc jump

Shaman does work. 

Both mid-range and Mech Shaman are tier 2 decks and Totem Shaman is at low end of tier 1.  

When a class have 3 viable constructed deck, it's hard to call it doesn't work.

 

 

Not sure if trolling are just unaware: https://tempostorm.com/hearthstone/meta-snapshot/meta-snapshot-28-oh-secret-tree-oh-secret-tree

 

AHAHAHAHAHA, dragon warrior considered even remotely close to viable..... Fucking Christ tempostorm is still the laughin stock of the community

Dragon Warrior is  at the very bottom of Tier 3.

Tier 3:   If Tier 1 is the meat and Tier 2 is the condiments, then Tier 3 is the buns to the Hearthstone burger. This tier has a large volume of average to good decks you might lose to on ladder and consequently rage-queue again in a quick attempt for a rematch to steal back that undeserved star. They are not bad, but they are not particularly impressive due to the meta-game not favoring their styles or lack of refinement. Several of these decks grow on you over time and become a favorite. Think "The Deck Next Door" type.

Quote from loke10000 jump

Quote from hyude1107 jump

My conclusion of OP Post. OP sucks hard and he blame the game. Wow.

Just FYI, Trump, Noxious, and many other Pro player understand 1 thing you didn't understand.

For a deck to work competitively, it must have an Unfairness in it. Without that unfairness, your deck is mediocre deck (look at arena deck, and see how mediocre it is). That is how Constructed works even the beginning. You can choose your own card, go find something unfair and make it work.

• Patron and Frothing is terrible by itself, but you can make a whole deck dedicated to it to make it super strong, thus the unfairness.
• Twilight drake and Giant is also terrible by itself. But you can make the deck where you can abuse their power, thus handlock.
• Frostnova is terrible by itself, but combined with doomsayer, and other freeze, antonidas and alextrassza it became super strong, thus freeze mage.
• Doomguard also sucks by itself, but you can abuse it if you have no hand anyway, thus zoolock.
• Gadgetzan is terrible by itself, but you can combine with low mana spell to draw your whole deck, thus miracle rogue.

Every single deck from the start of the game until now revolves around creating an unfairness and abuse it to win. EVERY SINGLE ONE. If you decide to play a deck that is fair (nothing actually amazing), you will lost, simple as that.

TL, DR : learn to play

you are in indeed correct i just wish we had more health so aggro doesnt kill a slow deck in 5 turns :p

He is about as correct as captain obvious!   

Quote from pochitos jump

 

This thing about "Thats no counter because you just slightly break even", is just a fallacy. Almost every great card in HS can't be countered and break even. By your own logic Rag is more broken that boom: 8 dmg with higher chance to hit the right face that boom bots plus a 8 body plus more value each turn if you don't kill it. Yeah boom bots are better in this meta full of little dudes but the more full is your side of the table the easier is to deal with boom and the higher chance boom bots will fail. And you are the one who trade with the boom bots you guys talk like they would have haste, rng can screw you but on average it ins't that bad.

Tell me there is a way to deal with Mysterious Challenger and break even. Or an Ysera drawing into a drake or awaken. You'll usually spend more than 4 mana to deal with a Shredder. You won't even be able to deal with Antonidas. An so on. Nobody plays perfectly countereable big dudes because you know they are perfectly countereable, but that doens't mean they are overpowered.

Let's apply this logic to something else.

Well, Murder is bad, but I don't think we need to do anything about it, because there are also rapist, torturers, bankers, etc..

Quote from ShadowOfFate jump

 

1. I agree that Ragnaros was never really OP. But then I say Dr. Boom isn't really OP, either. But as far as Ragnaros goes, your opinions on him are somewhat ignorant. Had you read the follow ups to that first quote you would understand that the point was made that Ragnaros does get used and is still very strong. The meta was generally always aggro heavy and fast and Ragnaros was still strong. Now is no different. To be honest, I think people have forgotten how to use him. And Dr. Boom doesn't do what Ragnaros does and vice versa. If you are just after a strong late game drop, then Dr. Boom can serve you well. But if you want what Ragnaros does, there is still plenty of use for that.
2. Popularity does not necessarily mean overpowered. Versatility and value are reasons why he is used. As is the general lack of competing 7 drops. So he can fit well in a lot of decks. He isn't always the best option, or if he is it is often partly because there are a lack of competing 7 drops.
3. Boom doesn't outperform every 8 or 9 drop, particularly in every situation. That's just overdramatic. So is saying that no other legendaries see play. Have you seen deck design on this site or in the ladder? Did you know that multiple legendaries can be included in a deck, or that not every single last one uses Dr. Boom? Yes, there are good decks that don't include him.
4. No one was asking for a boom clone. I was asking for more viable options at the 7 drop. Most of those options are not good and you can check them out if you don't believe me. Good 8 and 9 drops still have their uses and would still be used.
5. Dr. Boom is not an auto-include. He's generally a good fit. That doesn't mean he is always the best fit.
6. You underrated Cenarius.

I don't mind people arguing they think the card is too much and why, but the histrionics around this card are getting tiresome. It's gotten to the point where some people seem to think he's an automatic win condition every game.

1.  The meta was WAY WAY slower in vanilla.  The minions were also far less sticky, and Ragnaros was incredibly strong back then.  He could be easily countered by one card plays though, so it was balanced.

2. Popularity indicates a potential imbalance.

3. Well that is an asinine standard.  Of course it doesn't outperform EVERY CARD in EVERY SITUATION!  

4. Actually, if a lot of other stupidly strong 7 drops came along, I bet a lot of the later game cards would be dropped.  

5. He is as close to an auto-include as you can get.  The only decks he doesn't make it into are the ones that are extremely refined for a certain purpose.  Dragon Priest or Patron Warrior for instance.

6.  There is significant probability Dr boom either clears Cenarius, or kills the taunts and enables you to drop 7 face.

Quote from pochitos jump

Quote from DragonConsort jump

Yeah class legendaries, thought they were supposed to be better?

Dr. Boom laughs at the comparative futility of Cenarius, Grommash, or Tirion and it costs less as well.  Grommash needs to be triggered, Tirion can be silenced to be a weak 6/6.  While Grommash needs to be triggered to be worth of its cost.  Cenarius example has already been given.

Antonidas?  Unique card, however you build your deck to have a lot of cheap spells/spare parts to make him useful.  Boom can be thrown into just about anything and will be useful.  

They are better.

Tirion can be silenced but no bg'd. Grommash is enabled by tons of cards in warrior and is as unique finisher, same as antonidas. 

Those are by far the best 3. 

Quote from ballsdeep jump

Just DE'd golden al'akir... no regrets

Al'Akir is a good shaman card, but that means it's mediocre crap to everyone else, so I say good play sir.

Quote from Serology jump

Quote from taurenchieftain93 jump

^If it's making you feel any better, reached rank 100 legend meanwhile with 16-7 record in legend total. :)

Showeth me thy deck list!

http://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/class-discussion/shaman/65745-first-time-legend-midrange-shaman

It's just a standard totem midrange shaman deck....

Quote from taurenchieftain93 jump

Just wanted to come and say that at ranks 2-legend at least midrange shaman is really good atm, reached legend today(made a separate thread about it, shameless advertising I know :D). Meta is full of druids, CWs, mages and couple of handlocks, patrons and secret paladins.

It's the end of the month, everyone has already got legend.  I am playing dragon pally atm, and doing quite well too. You can basically level up with anything right now.

Quote from arrumph jump

Quote from Bex_The_Destroyer jump

I find it's best to hold him until very late in the game when your opponent either can't clear him, or can clear him but has no options to rebuild his board that same turn - this gives you the tempo swing that you need in the late game to win. He actually works much better against mid/control etc than aggro I find. On those games that nearly go to fatigue he's saved me a bunch of times so far by just holding him until the very end game.

This is exactly right. Chillmaw gets her (yes, I'm being a lore pedant—she's a female dragon) best value when you play her in a situation where the opponent can't deal with her using his board OR directly from his hand, and instead has to throw down a bunch of minions that, in the best-case scenario, are all going to die to Chillmaw. You really have to use her proactively—not as a taunt to stop the opponent's existing board, but as a massive tempo-sink that he's going to have to waste resources getting through.

I would tap that

Quote from ShadowOfFate jump

Quote from HomerRupaul jump

This is why most OP cards in the game are 2-in-1 type cards, because Blizzard do not assign that value in their cost (Piloted Shredder is another example). The fact that you fill the board with 3 bodies playing 1 card (Dr. Boom) is enough to call the card OP.

Not really. A card can have good value without being OP. Take Sludge Belcher for example. Then you have a bunch of token summoners, many of which can summon far more than just a couple 1/1s. Again, if 2 of the 3 bodies are 1/1s then that isn't much of a add at turn 7. I'll say it again. War Golem is a bad card that costs more than is worth playing. If Dr. Boom was just a 7/7 and the only thing he did was summon two 1/1 tokens with no effect, that still wouldn't be good enough to be played by most decks. It's not about him summoning 3 for 1. The tokens are merely the platform for the deathrattle damage.

Quote from Mysticjbyrd jump

Quote from ShadowOfFate jump

Calculating value is getting really dumb here. It's so arbitrary and biased. In just the last couple pages, we have come up with ranges of anything from 7-14 mana cost values for this card. It's gotten really silly. Heck, if we wanted to keep up the stupidity we could argue about having less than 7 value on it. But because anyone rational knows Dr. Boom is good value, it must be worth more than 7. But they also know the value is not worth twice the cost of the card. That in of itself doesn't inherently make it OP. Many cards are good value and could be considered as a greater value than their cost, particularly with legendary cards, which are supposed to be better in general and certainly than weak commons. 

And who ever played War Golem in constructed? It's more expensive than it's value, so clearly it's not worth the 7 mana. If Dr. Boom was 7/7 summon to 1/1 tokens without any effect, would anybody play it then at 7 cost? Still probably no. Maybe some gimmicky token deck? Really, it's about the boom bot deathrattle effect. That is what really makes the card effective and adds most of the extra value. The 1/1 tokens are really just a platform for that. And in just the last two pages, the deathrattle effect has been rated at anything from 1 to a combined 5. So ignoring arbitrary rating, is the deathrattle effect really enough to push a card that would not otherwise see play to the OP status?

The issue is you don't understand the difference between base values, cards without card text, and what you perceive to be worth x mana.  Everyone has to work from the same standard, and that is the base values.

I think I broke it down quite nicely.  Idk what more I could add.   I guess if you think Dr Boom can't be worth nearly double it's cost, then you should look at mad scientist.  Mad scientist, which is highly considered the best 2 drop, is worth about 6 mana in mage.  That is 3x it's actual summoning cost.  

You didn't answer my question. And mad scientist is a 2 cost. While I could (but won't because it's a waste of time) still debate your calculation of value on that, doubling 2 is far different than doubling 7 because math. Regardless, you are getting too caught up in what you perceive things to be worth, which is no less arbitrary than me in this context. For example, people have compared both Wisps and Living Roots to the summon 1/1 tokens part of Dr. Boom. People have compared Crackle, Holy Smite, and Arcane Missiles to the random damage part. You can come up with a bunch of different comparisons for things and the answer changes depending on what comparison you choose. Then you put in other factors or not, depending on what people agree on. There is no perfect calculation. The only consistent comparison is War Golem, which no one plays in constructed because it is a crappy common that is poor value at 7 cost. So how is it really worth 7 if no one plays it at 7?

I'll put it like this again. No one plays war golem at 7 cost. Would you play war golem at 7 cost if it summoned two 1/1 tokens? In most decks the answer is still probably no. By turn 7, two 1/1 tokens aren't much use for most things that aren't gimmicky token decks. And even then, Onyxia would be much better value at 9 cost. So what adds the most value? It's the damage from the deathrattle effect. But you yourself calculated the value of that aspect at 1 mana cost. So ignoring arbitrary rating, is the deathrattle effect really enough to push a card that would not otherwise see play to the OP status? Since you didn't answer, I can only assume you putting the value of that aspect at 1 means you don't think it's that big a deal. And yet you have the card at nearly twice the cost. It doesn't add up.

It doesn't add up, because you are using arbitrary standards, pulling numbers out of your ass, and completely throwing logic and reasoning out the window.  I on the other hand am using the weights given by Blizzard.

Do you really think the boom bots 1 attack isn't significant?  That 2 damage is very very often the difference between clearing your opponent's board, or leaving 1 or 2 creatures alive.  

When you combine the deathrattle and the two 1/1 bodies, then this card becomes the best legendary by far.  

Quote from TJTrailerJoe jump

Meh, i think Hunters got the short end of the stick, and im not actually mad about that. True<3 doesnt have to work in every deck, think we should just leave her be

If hunters got the short end of the stick, then Shaman, Rogue, and Warlock got the shit that fell off the short end of the stick.

I actually like this guy's idea.  I don't think it would see play regardless, but it's at least more flavorful that way.

Quote from Motolconker jump

the only time he shines is in dragon priest which is just flavor of the patch meta crap right now 

the moment dragon priest falls out of flavor so will he

Dragon Priest isn't a flavor of the month type deck.  It likely won't go away anytime soon.  According to tempostorm it even has a 50% winrate v/s patron.   Idk how much I trust that though...  Regardless, it will likely easily remain tier 2+.

Chillmaw is a solid tech option in dragon decks.