Hearthpwn

Quote from Tyk3 >>

Demon Hunter quest might not be quite as easy but sitting watching someone draw their whole deck over 5 turns is one of the most disheartening things I’ve seen in HS. Why the game has suddenly become about drawing your whole deck as quickly as possible I don’t know. 

 The most broken part about the DH quest is that realistically you don't even care about completing it, the discounts from the first 2 steps are good enough for you to even care about playing Kurthus at the end. There have been games when I even burn the kurthus cause all the cards I'm drawing and it doesn't matter cause I have lethat for next turn anyways. On a mirror yesterday my opponent got the nuts and completed the quest super fast while I was barely drawing and I was only able to complete step 2 barely. Thing is that with that I got lucky and discounted most combo pieces and while my opponent was doing dumb shit and playing his kurthus I just OTK'd him on turn 7.

We've had the expansion for around 4 days now and while the meta is far from solved, there's already lots of info on what looks playable and what's looking like it was overrated or underrated. I'll give my rankings on how I think all the questlines are doing:

Tier S: Best questlines that are shaping the meta

• The Demon Seed: We all knew this card would be very strong and it is. It's pretty easy to complete, specially with the help of our old friend Stealer of Souls. Warlock has a solid amount of healing and after you drop tamsin then your opponent is dead pretty much next turn. 
• Find the Imposter: This one is not too fancy but it allows you to develop very good tempo. Most SI:7 cards are solid and having Vinespine Slayer back is fantastic. I think what pushes this to S tier is that is the easiest questline to complete and while each reward is not flamboyant or crazy (not even the scabbs final one), they're simply very solid and being able to do shit like playing scabbs and immediatly stealthing him gives you the ability to push crazy damage in the mid-game.
• Sorcerer's Gambit: This deck was  everywhere day 1 and has since dropped a bit in both playrate and winrate but it's still very good. The end reward is a very strong wincondition and the one big issue this deck has is the fact that quality of frost spells is so shit right now. A lot of decks currently don't care about making a board and that makes it so cards like Flurry and Brain Freeze are totally uncastable. I've even seen people playing Oasis Ally just to have more frost spells that you can cast in case your opponent also doesn't hit your face, in a deck that rarely plays minions itself, crazy times. This deck and the questline will get stronger once people realize decks like face hunter and elemental shaman are still really good cause mage will be able to actually cast all their frost spells.

Tier A: Great questlines that are strong and spawned or strenghtened old decks

• Final Showdown: I have to say I got this prediction wrong. I thought this would be too hard to fully complete and that the end reward is not that great considering you already went through most of your deck completing the previews steps, but that's the thing... You don't need and/or care about fully completing it on a deck like OTK DH. I've been playing a lot of that deck in the past 2 days and the first 2 rewards are good enough to allow you to combo in turns 7-10 easily. Most games I won (which where honestly a lot) I either didn't bother to even try to complete the last part cause I simply had lethal, or I didn't care about playing Kurthus cause I just had lethal and I even milled him a couple times due to having a full hand and still didn't care cause I was able to set up lethal for next turn. Every other quest looks like it aims to be the end goal of your deck but Final Showdown is simply the means to an end and that's the reason it feels so strong in OTK DH.
• Lost in the Park: I said a lot of times this card was being slept on and I was right. The card isn't OP, don't get me wrong, but it's very solid. I think the saving grace of this questline is that 1) you can splash the attack package into a lot of decks and they still work and have the added bonus of extra armor and extra damage to control board or go face and 2) Guff is a beast so you can copy him and push big damage. If Druid gets a couple good attack cards in the following expansions this questline will get really good and consistent. 
• Command the Elements: The first and final rewards are very good, the middle one is pretty thrash honestly. Your spells casting twice is nuts but I think the big problem of this archetype is the fact that a lot of your pay-off cards and enablers are non-nature spells which means Shaman goes back to being a class with shit card draw and that affects the consistency of the deck.

Tier B: Questlines that are unsurprisingly bad or that ended up not being great after being hyped up.

• Rise to the Occasion: The end reward of this is very powerful, it vomits a lot of stats and it's self sustainable, you can have no deck or hand and this keeps pumping stats every turn. The issue is that the first reward is shit and you're forced to run a bunch of 1-drops to even complete your quest. The only way I can see this working in the future is if blizzard decided to print some crazy neutral and paladin 1-drops and at that point you probably would just drop the quest and make an aggro deck so you could play your crazy one drops in turn one lol.
• Seek Guidance: People went crazy with this one cause 1) Priest is for sure the most hated class 2) It's a wincondition that doesn't care about the state of the game, a play this win the game. Problem is that it's really slow, insanely slow. The few games I've queued against this deck go the same... They mulligan suboptimally and play their cards suboptimally to complete the quest but they end up getting stuck cause they don't draw cards from an specific cost or they simply can't play them ever cause they need to be doing some other stuff. Also the 5,6 and 7 mana slots just have very few cards that you actually want to play and not just have them in your deck to have better cost density available. I feel this card will only ever work maybe on tournament lineups that are aiming for full anti-control cause in ladder stuff like Questlock and OTK DH do that job a lot better while also dealing with the rest of the meta.
• Defend the Dwarven District: I said many times this card wouldn't be anywhere near as crazy as most people were saying. I saw a bunch of posts saying this was gonna break the meta, that hit was going to be nerfed in the first day, infinite damage, Raza Priest is back... I've seen 2 quest hunters in 4 days in ladder and they both lost hard. The card just suffers from the same problem every non hyper aggro , which is not having much card draw which means they end up gassing out. The resources for both the quest and the reward are the same which means they end up with an empty hand like 90% of the games and thus can't deal the "infinite damage" that everyone was so scared about. Face Hunter is still miles above this combo deck. 

There's nothing safe, people were saying that quest warlock and quest mage are busted and I've been doing really well vs those decks with handbuff paladin and si:7 rogue with a robes tech, so if you don't have dust then don't be trigger happy and wait, that's the wisest choice.

Face hunter or shaman is too fast for them, but if you want the real counter that beats the fringe other decks that you might find is handbuff paladin with robes tech. You drop robes into a 2-3 minions board and you can see both mage and warlock shit themselves and hover over robes in confusion por like 20 seconds at least.

You could actually open Mankrik and Samuro in your packs during the barrens release and as they were the free legendary and the diamond card of the expansion Blizzard offered a full refund  if you opened them. This meant if you got them it was pretty much a free legendary of your choice or if you were lucky enough to get them golden it was even better.

So is this a thing again? Can you open them in packs and if you do, will you get the refund? I just don't want to screw my self and want to know if I should open packs first and then claim the stuff on the reward track or what.

Quote from Pageturner >>

Great thread idea!

I'm going to leave Lost in the Park and Battleground Battlemaster out of my review because I think OP said it best. These cards are being HEAVILY slept on. 

Cheesemonger - This card is similar to Ogremancer. However, I feel like this card will pay for itself more often than Ogremancer does. Ogremancer can be destroyed by a spell and you get a 2/2 out of it. With Cheesemonger, however... does your opponent run a bunch of minions into it? Good trade. Do they use a spell (maybe two) to destroy him? Good trade. Do they ignore it completely? They'll pay for it when you fill your hand with spells.

Mo'arg Forgefiend - Finally, a good Demon for N'Zoth, God of the Deep to summon. If you can make it to turn eight against an aggressive deck, this card will seal the deal for you. Also, it's a decent 8-drop for Seek Guidance. 

Entitled Customer - I think Handlock will be META and this is the card that ties everything together. I think this just clears the board 95% of the time you use it.

First Flame - If any card makes this "Fire Mage" work, it's this. Even so, this is just generally good removal and Mage's love cheap spells.

 I honestly don't think Cheesemonger will work, it feels too clunky. An ogremancer type effect is good but cheese's one is too random, there are a lot of terrible spells at all costs that will just end up rotting in your hand tbh.

Mo'arg Forgefiend seems good for N'zoth decks that have no minions but the only solid N'Zoth deck is DH and you already have your green rag. This card can help a lot to make other N'Zoth decks viable.

Entitled Customer is really good and will honestly be played in literally every single defensive warlock. a 6 mana nether that leaves a 3/2 behing is good.

And yeah I think between First Flame, Ignite, Hot Streak, the 4 mana AoE and the fire auctioneer, fire mage has to at least be a fringe deck most of those cards are for sure strong. 

Quote from Poghy >>

Nobleman: Maybe its just me, but I wanted this effect for so long in a neutral card. It can duplicate your legendaries, your spells, even your quest rewards.

Sketchy Information (in wild): 3 mana 5/5, and its 1 mana with Prep. Its just crazy good tempo and I think a lot of people are sleeping on it.

 Nobleman has the potential to be a solid copying effect but I think it'll end up being too slow because it is random. If you want it to be good you need to only have minions you want to copy in your hand and that's honestly too slow to be realistic.

Quote from xskarma >>

Encumbered Pack Mule

I think this is one of those small, unassuming cards that will go in a LOT of decks. Early taunt is nice. Handlock likes it, buff decks like it. You get 4 small unassuming taunts for the price of just 2.

I'm going to assume it's a successful Arena card too.

The only problem I can see with it is that you can't keep it in the mulligan or it loses most of its appeal. That might be a problem if it doesn't pan out as a nice card later in games.

I think this is one of those cards that you assume is just pack filler, but that turn out to be underrated.

 Oh yeah I actually forgot the mule, pretty decent card honestly but it might get hindered by the fact that you can't keep it on the mulligan.

With the expansion coming tomorrow there's a lot of talk about the "OP" cards that will break the meta and that are too strong and will be staple (hunter quest, cornelius, etc.) but I haven't seen a lot of talk about cards that people either say are bad or are not even considered but that could actually see play and are being underrated. Keep in mind I'm not talking about cards that will break the meta and people are not considering, not necessarily, but rather cards that people are saying are much worse than they actually are or cards that are simply being disregarded or not talked about enough. I'll start with some cards that are underrated imo:

• Lost in the Park: Not the strongest quest but not a bad one. Problem is people think that a quest should be your main strategy but I see this one more like a support package for another druid deck. The attack quest package is 9 cards (pounce, amulet, feral, the new tiger and the quest itself) and it gives you a lot of damage and armor. If you're expecting the quest to be your win condition then yeah, it sucks, it falls short but if you splash this package into maybe a GA druid or maybe even something else like a taunt or N'Zpth/Y'Shaarj druid, it can help you a lot by either killing minions or going face.   
• Best in Shell: We all know this card is good, but it's being underrated for how good it actually is. 14 health in taunts is a lot. Clown druid is currently a solid deck but it main issue is it can get run down by aggro, this card solves the issue and you should be able to play it early enough due to ramping. Also the class has Arbor Up and this is literally such a good card for an arbor follow up.
• Battleground Battlemaster: Most people are sleeping on this card, like heavily. It has ok stats for a 5 drop and it can allow you to pump massive amounts of damage while developing a body. I'm not saying this is a Corridor Creeper levels of sleeper but the card is solid and in the right deck you can destroy your opponent with it. Mid-range decks want this card and it pretty much has taunt and has to be removed immediatly. I think there are 2 decks that this can shine in. First is Handlock cause this is a disgusting, on curve follow-up to both Anetheron and Dark Alley Pact, if you get this combo off the game is pretty much over. Problem is that there aren't other many good targets for the windfury. The deck I really think this card is going to be really strong is on Handbuff pally. You buff your shit, you get more attack, you make battlemaster itself harder to remove. The issue is wheter handbuff paladin will end up as a real deck that's at least like tier 2-3. If that's the case then Battlemaster will allow paladin to cheese a lot of games.

So hw about you? What are some of the cards you think are being underrated or simple disregarded but that could end up being impactful or at least a lot better than the ratings they're getting.

People are worrying way to much about this card. It's good but it isn't the oppresive tyrant a lot of people say it is. Yes it's in theory infinite damage (Or a lot at least) but in reality hunter doesn't have good card draw and the fuel for both completing the quest and your reward after is the same, which means your hand will not be that full to use it after you go shadowreaper mode. The games where you complete the quest fast and then manage to draw into Lock and Load will feel good, cause you just refill but otherwise you'll be hero powering, playing one spell and then hero powering againg cause your hand is empty, all that while your opponent is just playing their deck and you can't answer all their threats, also for that reason your hero power will have to be used to clear minions a lot of the times. Face hunter with the new tools is still just a superior deck.

Quote from sPacEtiMe19 >>

You’re going to see a holy god amount of quest hunter. So much so, I anticipate the launch day deck to be a priest or Paladin stacked with healing. 

 Yeah that sound logic but the issue with those decks is that they get destroyed by quest Warlock, if your plan is just to out heal hunter then you're the perfect target for warlock to self-damage kill you.

I think is fun to have this sort of theorycrafting space when we can all share ideas about what we think will be good/bad fun/frustrating to play with/against. And yes I know we have to wait to get the cards so we can play with them and there are always some cards that we all freak out about and they end up seeing no play and some others that no one even consider on their day 1 decks and end up being meta defing and all that but hey this is just to bounce ideas and have fun. I'll start with mine.

I think the meta in the first couple days will be dominated by Quest Warlock and Quest Hunter. Both are decks that are honestly easy to build, pretty straight forward and easy to pilot. They also both look like they dunk on unrefined mid-range or slower decks which is like half of the meta after an expansion drops. At some point people will just resort to full aggro to counter warlock (which isn't terrible vs hunter either) and at that point the good efficient tempo decks will rise. At that point stuff like Quest Rogue (with the tenwu alex combo) and Quest Warrior will rise cause those are decks that can bully non-refined aggro decks but also have late game win conditions. I'll finish my predictions by saying that Quest Druid will be a big player on the meta and that a lot of people underestimate it. It's not hard to complete, you can punch the opponent in the face, getting that 8 burst + and 8/8 is very strong and you can even copy Guff, I think the quest just needs to find another shell that it can work along with but as a small package I can actually see it fitting into a lot of decks. 

finally I'll share my miracle Si:7 Rogue list that I'm really hyped to try:

This has been a thing since the beginning of the game and honestly is something that has always bothered me. I'm talking about the way Team 5 designs expansions and the way they distribute the power level between classes. What they do is basically make it so there are some garbage tier unplayable class(es) and then some god tier ones. They keep feeding the tier 0 classes expansion after expansion until they become too strong, then they nerf it and depending how powerful it was then the class can become ok or unplayable. The garbage tier classes keep getting scraps to the point where maybe one or two cards on the entire expansion are decent and are playable in some decks but obviously that's not enough. 

Just look at the Shaman set for Stormwind. The class got no bad cards at all. Let's quickly go through all of them:

• Command the Elements: Good quest, not too hard to complete and the final reward is pretty strong. Not sure if it's worth cause you can just kill the opponent faster with weapons and burn spells (casted once) but the card is straight up good.
• Bolner Hammerbeak: Nuts card. Shaman has a bunch of good battlecry cards. Just imagine going turn 2 this into Dungeoneer... nice draw 4. And it's not super easy to remove 4 health on turn 2.
• Overdraft: What the actual fuck. What is this card, who aproveed this? I mean for 1 mana you unlock your overloadead crystals, deal damage (can go face) and it even has tradable in case you can use it. No way this card doesn't get nerfed in the first balance patch.
• Tiny Toys: This honestly looks like a fine midrange card but it could bring evolve shaman as a serious deck. You can go weapon on 5 into this on 6 and nut on your opponent or even turn 5 this into revolve. Again not sure if it's worth cause everything else looks better but this is the pay-off card evolve shaman needed, it has all the enablers but it needed a real threat.
• Granite Forgeborn: Elemental shaman is good. This card is a Yeti with a crazy upside. It is an elemental itself. Cheating mana is good. Card = Good.
• Charged Call: This one is on the weaker side but still not a bad a card really. Obviously intended for the quest deck and I guess you can cheat a lot of mana with it but I think it'll end up not seeing a lot of play, not even in the quest deck.
• Auctionhouse Gavel: All Shaman archetype have really good battlecries, this helps you play them earlier and you can tutor the card. Not crazy insane but a more than decent card that will for sure see play.
• Canal Slogger: This card is a staple in every single Shaman until it rotates. Cheap removal that can kill bigger stuff and it heals you. There's not a single Shaman deck that doesn't want to run this. This card is the strongest Shaman card of the expansion just because of how solid it is.
• Spirit Alpha: Whatever card, also on the weaker side. You can do nasty stuff with blooms and overdraft but I don't think is realistically worth it even on quest.
• Investment Opportunity: Just meh, not bad not great. Will see play in quest and I could see it being run in other decks to get either bloom or slogger (or both?) but is just a super generic tutor but the fact that shaman has 2 crazy prime targets for this could push it to being played (again bloom and slogger).

So as you can see, Shaman didn't get a single bad card, it got a couple of crazy cards, some decent ones and like 2 meh ones, that aren't even bad but won't really see play all things considered. I don't understand why one of the best decks in the game, tier 1 for sure, and a class that has 2 separate but good gameplans (full elementals or doomhammer), why in the hell do they do this? Why do they rotate the powerlevel between periods of time?

I know it's impossible to make a meta where every class is at least decent and playable, where everyone just has at least one good deck with at least like 50-53% winrate but come one, they purposefully make some classes great and others complete thrash, I'm not saying they should make the game perfectly balanced but hey, maybe if there's a class that's really good, maybe don't keep giving it another expansion of all crazy cards.

Quote from Thorgann >>

I'm rank 82 or so. Do you think I can make it to rank 100? 

 Yeah, just do every single quest from now until the expansion hits, you'll also have to play for like 2-3 hours each day and you should be good. The quests only is not enough cause you don't have the battle pass. You're missing 50k exp to get to level 100 and we have 17 days left which means you need to get roughly 2.5k exp per day to get there, which isn't too bad tbh. Idk how much exp quests give without the pass but playing the 2 or 3 hours I said should be enough to get the 2.5k exp counting the completion of your daily and weekly quests. Just keep track of how much you earn each day and it's a piece of cake.

Quote from 17Ducks >>

Hero skins in the bundle? Nah, I'll wait and buy them solo for gold or cheaper money

 yeah good luck buying them in like 3 or 4 years.