Hearthpwn

Quote from hellscreamtrue >>

im not angry and that wasn't passive aggressive..

but if I were and it was, this was the last place id look for help and you'd be the last person id ask

 Your interactions with people in this thread make you look jealous and spiteful. I’m not sure what you were trying to achieve?

Well done to the OP anyway, getting legend with Control Warlock is very impressive.

Quote from Bengalaas >>

My point is that every class has some absurd conditional cards. For some classes the shell to shine doesn't exist yet, but every class can do amazing plays. The game has evolved from the time when 4drops were comperable to Yeti and that's good. If we had 10 years of classic Hearthstone it would be a stale, boring game with a handful of players.

It's better if everyone has fireworks, as long as no one deck is keeping the rest from doing their thing.

 But the more specific archetypes are broken the less viable everything else is. It’s forced and uninteresting to me. It makes theorycrafting a bit of a chore.

I’m not saying power cannot increase or that the game should not have evolved from coin>innervate>yeti.

Quote from Bengalaas >>

Quote from Kinkyjohnfowler >>

 This^

’Balance’ is sort of irrelevant in Hearthstone now as Blizzard no longer stick to any kind of solid rule across the board. Originally there were touchstone cards which you could use to assess balance, now if a card has some kind of deck building restriction then it’s power level is allowed to be as high as necessary for the archetype to be viable.

Hence Spell Mage is allowed to draw 2 cards for free, not because that interaction is in any way balanced, but because the design team wanted to push the archetype and giving it broken tools achieves that.

You can almost guarantee that Shadow Priest will be ‘broken’ by the end of the year.

 For some reason everyone is hung up on the fact that "No minion mage" can draw 2 cards for free, when Rogues and Warriors can do the same thing much easier and Demon Hunters can potentially draw three cards at a mana gain. You don't even know what balance means.

If everyone can do crazy plays but the winrate of several decks is close to 50%, then the game is balanced. It's more fun for most people, it might be unfun for you, but it is certainly not unbalanced.

 What are you on about?

You’re agreeing with me and arguing against it at the same time, it’s weird.

The reason there are decks near 50% is because, like I said, Blizzard choose which archetypes they wish to ‘break’. You mention Rogue as if I would defend their card draw? I wouldn’t because they are broken too. That’s the point. Every viable deck is only viable because Blizzard have given them absurdly broken tools (such as Rogue’s card draw, or Demon Hunter’s).

Blizzard have already mentioned Shadow Priest this year, so it is very likely they will print a couple of obscenely powerful Shadow Priest synergistic cards soon.

In classic Hearthstone the cards were balanced against a fairly strict system.

Quote from Horrorwolf >>

The truth is all classes right now are severely imbalanced and downright broken. You guys are just focusing on Warlock as a control deck.

The whole damn game is a clusterf*ck.

 This^

’Balance’ is sort of irrelevant in Hearthstone now as Blizzard no longer stick to any kind of solid rule across the board. Originally there were touchstone cards which you could use to assess balance, now if a card has some kind of deck building restriction then it’s power level is allowed to be as high as necessary for the archetype to be viable.

Hence Spell Mage is allowed to draw 2 cards for free, not because that interaction is in any way balanced, but because the design team wanted to push the archetype and giving it broken tools achieves that.

You can almost guarantee that Shadow Priest will be ‘broken’ by the end of the year.

Hunter has very consistent and powerful aggro tools (including it’s hero power). It doesn’t need to rely on drawing it’s deck as much as some other aggro decks do.

With that said I imagine old school Control decks would fare quite well against Face Hunter, atleast more so than something  like Weapon Rogue.

Tick is too slow to beat combo decks consistently if the player knows the match up. The main combo decks are Demon Hunter and Hunter and both have an above 70% win rate against Control Warlock at top 1000 Legend.

Like PetiteMouche has said the rock paper scissors of old no longer exists. The amount of cheap/free card draw and generation means control can no longer win the value game.

Hilarious stuff...

@Hoogout

Maybe you are right. Maybe HSReplay and ‘facts’ are irrelevant in this case. I wouldn’t know though because you have failed to show me how, yet again.

.

Quote from HeilKise >>

Quote from Kinkyjohnfowler >>

Well would you mind summarising it for me? In layman terms if possibly, a person of your intellect should be able to do that.

As from my own anecdotal experience and the data I have seen on HSReplay, it seems clear that the DoL experience is not the same.

 Well if you read how the topic go you will kinda agree that in the end we nailed the subjet. Basically This deck become the main reason why Slow decks cant be played anymore for the time being. That was the point not the "dominance of Mage over the winrates of ladder" but the dominance of mage over the majority of the decks. Is this true or not? You can belive what you want to belive, the numbers show actually that mage is not top tier but its only because of the existence of 3 decks: Paladin, Demon Hunter and Hunter, this are the decks that lower mage winrate. The rest of the decks? cant compete. That is a simple fact: Control warrior loses 70% of the times against mage, Rally priest, HPower Mage, Control Priest, Combo Demon Hunter, The midrange version of Rush Warrior, Secret Rogue, Ramp Druid, New Miracle Rogue, Aggro Shaman...all this decks have less than 50% winrate against Spell-Mage. What decks have more than 50%? Secret Paladin (both versions), Face hunter, Token Druid and Aggro Rogue with weapon.

4 Decks consistenly winning vs 10 Decks consistenly losing.

This means Mage is tier 1? not becuase now people mostly play this 4 decks and aggro demon hunter (that has a fair chances of winning but is not consistenly 50%).  What this means is that: this deck as "tier 3" is doing the same job than Paladin Secrets keeping a lot of decks on check. With lunacy, without lunacy, mage is prove to have the Cubelock effect, Cubelock was not a tier 1 deck really, it was tier 2 sometimes worse. But this deck was a problem not because the capacity of hit tier 1 top rank legend 90% winrate against the ladder. But because exclude other decks of the ladder.  Much more decks than the top tiers. The number of players playing Mage will go down? maybe, its also one of the most popular decks right now.  But the damage is already done. People test the first days of the nerf slow decks, they fail and everyone switch to aggro. If mage suddenly stop being play people switch to testing midrange, control again, mage will comeback instanly. We have a deck that dictates: play aggresive or dont play. In this meta.

The game as a whole has sped up to the point where Control decks cannot exist in the form they used to. This is mainly down to cheap/free card draw however, not DoL or Tickatus.

Combo decks go off ridiculously early and aggro/tempo decks can easily refuel. So decks that try to play the long game and win by out valuing the opponent are going to struggle. 

Before the nerf DoL was very oppressive, it was everywhere. Now I rarely see it (as I said before I have personally seen the card played once since the nerf). So although I agree that, in theory, DoL is yet another nail of the coffin of classic control decks, I don’t believe the card is oppressive enough to warrant any special attention, and the nerf reduced the viability of the card enough that it sees far, far less play than it used to.

 @Hoogout I’m going to take your constant diversions as evidence that you cannot back up your assertions that the DoL experience is the same. 

Well would you mind summarising it for me? In layman terms if possibly, a person of your intellect should be able to do that.

As from my own anecdotal experience and the data I have seen on HSReplay, it seems clear that the DoL experience is not the same.

Quote from Hooghout >>

Quote from Kinkyjohnfowler >>

Quote from Hooghout >>

Quote from Kinkyjohnfowler >>

Just answer his question for gods sake lol.

it’s a very simple question, “How is the DoL experience the same?”, and any answer you give can be easily supported by data from sites such as HSReplay.

 Thinking within devs frame of mind the answer might seem straightforward for a flatlander. Taking a step back, the answer becomes relative to the crowd who aren't devs preferred players.

 I’m not the devs ‘preferred players’ by your definition. I exclusively play homebrew meme decks.

Maybe you aren’t as good as you think you are at  this?

Feel free to answer the original question though, use layman terms so a ‘flatlander’ like me can understand if you wish.

 What is good? 

 Your ability to assume the character of the person you are debating with is not as good as what you think.

The offer to answer the original question, “how the DoL experience is the same?”, still stands.

Quote from Hooghout >>

Quote from Kinkyjohnfowler >>

Just answer his question for gods sake lol.

it’s a very simple question, “How is the DoL experience the same?”, and any answer you give can be easily supported by data from sites such as HSReplay.

 Thinking within devs frame of mind the answer might seem straightforward for a flatlander. Taking a step back, the answer becomes relative to the crowd who aren't devs preferred players.

 I’m not the devs ‘preferred players’ by your definition. I exclusively play homebrew meme decks.

Maybe you aren’t as good as you think you are at  this?

Feel free to answer the original question though, use layman terms so a ‘flatlander’ like me can understand if you wish.

Quote from HeilKise >>

Quote from Kinkyjohnfowler >>

Deck of Lunacy is in 4.1% of decks from Diamond 4-1. It’s in 3% of Legend decks.

That’s since the balance patch, if we look over the last day then it drops to 3.4% Diamond 4-1 and 2.6% Legend.

It’s pretty clear that this card has an extremely marginal effect on the viability of control decks.

 That tells me nothing when you can also know that Legend is not the same meta as the rest fo the ladder. Let me explain starting with Diamond: in diamond you will find...0 control decks (maybe warlock has still good presence) why? because to scale over the mages you need to play aggro or paladin. Case solve. Now Legend: A lot of people make the mistake of compare the rest of the game with Legend. Legend is a whole different world, most Legend decks dont work in the same way on the rest of the ladder. People always upload their 60% - 70% - whatever high winrate % list of rank 1 legend whenever they get good luck on Legend and when you test those decks you go into 45-50% winrate.

Why ? BECAUSE LEGEND PLAYERS PLAY IN A DIFFERENT WAY. Decision making is different, Ladder mentality is more straighfoward, people play more defensive on Legends and more offensive in Gold-Plat-Diamond. More thinking is not always good specially if the goal is get more wins. More risk = more wins if you matches are shorter. So yeah on legend you can play almost everything and get possitive winrates that are kind of inconsistent with the rest of the game. I can spam face hunter all the way to Legend them change to spell priest and upload a list with 55% winrate in 10 matches or something like that against mage if i play enough on legend.

That means something? no, because i am pretty that i will lose more than 5 matches if i play the same deck on Diamond. Same goes for Tempo decks. You see People playing Zoo this days on Gold, Plat or Diamond? nope, it dont make any sense cause tempo sucks against Mage and Paladin. So In the ladder Tempo and Slow decks are trash right now? yes, why? because they dont have any good matchup, Paladin is bad for them, mage is bad for them and some builds have problems dealing with hunter and demon hunter too. That is why Warrior, Shaman, Rogue and Priest have very low Play rate right now.

 

Fast example: someone upload a control warrior deck in high legend with a good winrate. If you take that deck right now to the ladder and you play 50 matches tomorrow with a control warrior list your winrate will be possitive? probably if you are really good (and really lucky) with the deck but if other 10 players do the experiment i am pretty sure like really sure that more than 5 of them will get destroyed. Literally destroyed.

I agree that control is in a bad place, I’ve said it many times on this forum. I disagree a lot of recent design choices from Blizzard.

This thread is about DoL and how the experience of the card apparently remains the same. This is demonstrably false

If you have issues with the game and want to express them it makes more sense to do so in the correct threads and within the right conversations.

Just answer his question for gods sake lol.

it’s a very simple question, “How is the DoL experience the same?”, and any answer you give can be easily supported by data from sites such as HSReplay.