Hearthpwn

To hear some people tell it, Aggro is still a problem if it's allowed to win 50% at Rank 18.

Meanwhile, Control Warrior and Handlock decks that have maybe changed 3-5 cards total since release are 100% fine, and people who don't have enough dust for Class Legendaries should learn their place.

Blessing of Might really goes a lot way against Control Warrior to push through their Fiery War Axe draws.  Actually, I am somewhat surprised that you say CW is a bad matchup.  I've found that Shielded Minibot  is a pretty pivotal card for Paladin's early game there.  Whirlwind, Armorsmith and Taskmaster seem to be the only easy ways to break bubbles for them, and meanwhile they are always mulliganing for Fiery War Axe in every game.

Maybe lack of Muster is your problem there? 

Quote from RavenousSix »

Any tips for those of us stuck in the 8-9 rank and trying to push further?

To those of you who have hit legendary, did you stick to the same hero and the same deck until you hit legendary?

Did you basically perfect playing the deck, or did you alternate your strongest heroes/decks to get there?

What made the difference and pushed you through the ceiling?

Sorry if this has been asked before, I'd appreciate any input from players that have been there and done it.

Thanks.

Playing the same class or different classes... Boy, is there a lot to say here.  Let's start with the ideal.  The tip top players will have played extensively with basically every deck that's ever existed, whether netdecks or their own adaptations.  There's just no better way to learn each matchup than by playing both sides of it.  By doing that, you'll have the best idea of what is good against what, what kinds of decks got the most help by the last expansion, and which has had its problems matchups hated out of the game.  Then, the ideal is to pick a deck that you predict will have a good set of favorable matchups against the field.  If you think most of your opponents wlll be Handlock, some Control Warrior, and some Zoo, then pick a deck that is good against at least 2 of those 3.

That said, of course not every player has the resources of time and cards to do this.  And if it's between making 2 incomplete decks with 2 different classes and making 1 complete deck, the better option is to live and die by your 1 complete deck. You can supplement your learning of that deck's matchups by watching streams and VODs.  I would focus more on pro-level tournament VODs than on the popular entertainment streams, because honestly there is a huge jump in skill from one to the other.  

If I were limited in the investment I could make to the game, I'd pick a deck that tends to change very little and that has historically always at least been legitimate.  I would stay away from fads, both because they may get nerfed and because people adapt the hardest to beat them.  For example, if you were a middle of the road Control Warrior last year, you are certainly in a much better spot now than you'd be if you'd hopped on the Miracle Rogue bandwagon.

On perfecting your play of the deck, there aren't really any shortcuts.  The skill cap on this game is extremely high for TCG's.  For example, some players might point to Kolento hitting #1 Legend with a Fatigue Mage, and then think to themselves how strong that Fatigue Mage must be against the field right now and jump onto it and build it.  In reality, it is mostly because Kolento is an extremely good player.  He can hit #1 Legend with any of about half a dozen decks he could choose from.  And it's also because he's a good player that he can predict where an extremely passive strategy like Fatigue will do well, then execute that strategy in an entirely original deck.  There's no shortcuts.  Play a ton of games against a ton of opponents, and focus on what you can be doing to get better.

On things that pushed me through the ceiling, it was honestly learning how to take chances.  Now, that cuts against 99% of the beginner strategy out there.  The beginning strategy will say, never overextend, always clear your opponent's board whenever possible, always use the least resources to do that, etc.  In other words, it leads to a very value-oriented, conservative style.  You win by consistently limiting your opponent's chances to do anything bad against your position.  Well the thing is, the vast majority of the player base will have learned this style as well, since it's the style of the more popular streamers, as well as the style that's easily developed through Arena. But when two players of that style end up with equal decks, more wins will go to the player that takes risks against what their opponent is likely to be holding and is likely to draw.  For example, if a play is likely to get some value through, but will likely lose to a specific mid or late game card like Consecration, then you want to consider taking that line early game.  Your tendency to take those risks is even greater when you are in a poor matchup.  The common trap players fall into though, they get punished by an opponent's draw one time, and then they never ever make that play again.  Laddering in this game is about what happens in the majority of games, not worst case scenarios.  If you need a 12 win streak, it's in Arena.

One thing that helped me learn this watching the VODs of tournaments where money was on the line.  After watching streamers like Trump, bless his heart, I was surprised to see how many of these games never even reached Turn 10.  Depending on the matchup, there can be tons and tons of each player attacking past the other's minions.  Each deck knew exactly what it needed to do to win each matchup, which player would win if the game dragged on, and where the deck on a clock needed to take its chances.

Having tried it, I think single or even double Redemption is a good idea.

The only spot where it's not good is when you've got Muster tokens down AND you don't have a Taunt.  In that spot obviously, you just don't play Redemption.  It is definitely not hard to avoid doing that if you're not running Mad Scientist, which it doesn't sound like you are.  But still, that doesn't lead well to the kind of mana smoothness that you're talking about, because it's probably incorrect to play it blindly on curve.

Well, one other spot it could give you a problem is if opponents aren't clearing your minions.  As in, opponents will assume that it's either Avenge or Redemption when they find out that it's not Get Down, and then the obvious response is to just attack past your minions.  Easier for some than others, such as Hunter/Zoo/etc.  So, I would not count on getting a Minibot back against Aggro by doing this.  If you succeed in clearing their board, they will lose unless they deal with yours, but it just won't give you the value when you need it most, likely case.

But yes, a 3/1 Sludge Belcher is definitely worth both the mana and the card.  I have also seen some Pally's running Loot Hoarder, whether instead of Minibot/Chow or together with them, I don't know.  And even Aggro tends to clear Loot Hoarders with Webspinners, Voidwalkers and what not.  Two damage and a card is worth one mana as well, if I know this game like I think I do.

Also I will say, Tirion and Sylvannus are somewhat unique in the way they tend to work with both Redemption and Silence.  Either one, their Deathrattle will usually not go off for full effect twice, Tirion because of the weapon slot and Sylvannus because the opponent usually doesn't have that many minions. So, Tirion can resemble more a Annoy-o-Tron and Sylvannus a Magma Rager.  Otherwise, if they go for the Silence and attacking past, then the Redemption just doesn't go off.  However when the opponent does go for both a Silence, then a kill on their turn, it tends to be a blowout.  They probably just blew a Silence because they needed to escape the effect in that spot, and then you just get it back.  It's somewhat unpredictable, but the separating the good outcomes from the middle of the road ones depends on what you find your opponents doing in each matchup.  When it was Handlock and Control Warrior, they'd just silence and kill everything, but now with Druid resurging they Silence Tirion and attack past quite often.  Results may vary.

I think a lot of the farming people allege is going on really isn't.

First of all, if people really are conceding/roping to remain at lower ranks, then any given player stands to see as many golden heroes doing this and giving them a free win as they do a decked out player who beats them silly.  So if it is happening, it's two-sided and you should never feel you're being cheated.  It's a non-issue for any real purposes.

Second, I know lots of people who have Golden Heroes and are perennial Rank 15-20 players.  They just play a lot of games.  The game has been out for a year, and that's more than enough time to get to 500.  That doesn't mean they are great at the game.  They may not even have good cards, since there are a lot of casual favorite Legendaries that don't cut the cake.  They just don't sit around netdecking and strategizing.  And they probably don't appreciate it if you automatically assume they're there to troll you, because chances are they are playing the game to have fun.  

Quote from Grumhul »

I don't think that you got the right tools to get a control type of paladin going. How about completely changing the deck to an aggressive style of play (which is much cheaper) until you open the cards you need for a control archetype? 

Sample: 

LowOnDust Unknown Deck by Grumhul - Jan 21, 2015 View Deck String Export to BBCode Export to Cockatrice Export to MarkDown Export to Html Clone this deck
Minion (18) 1x Aldor Peacekeeper 1x Arcane Golem 2x Knife Juggler 2x Leper Gnome 1x Southsea Deckhand 2x Dancing Swords 2x Haunted Creeper 1x Ironbeak Owl 2x Mad Scientist 2x Shielded Minibot 2x Undertaker	Ability (10) 1x Avenging Wrath 2x Divine Favor 1x Equality 2x Muster for Battle 2x Avenge 2x Consecration	Weapon (2) 2x Truesilver Champion
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I second the aggro suggestion.

For one, it is much lower on Dust requirements, true.  Class epics and Legendaries for mid and control Paladin are pretty necessary, and it is expensive for an FTP player not exclusively committed to the class.  Aggro doesn't need Quartermaster, although it's good, and it doesn't need either class Legendary.  The only Epic you will need is Avenging Wrath, and you have one copy.

Second, I hate the fatigue wars that Control mirrors become in this game.

Third, it's the type of deck where your critical decisions are made early.  That's an area that every new player should focus on in order to get good mechanics down.  In Control and Midrange, you are generally just mulliganing into your early game as hard as possible so that you can play any mana-efficient opening available.  In Aggro, pivotal decision are made Turn 2-4 in terms of what sort of minion you should lead with, when the best time is to play buffs, silences, wipes, and so on.  You also need to know what to mulligan away.  That builds good awareness of each matchup, without relying on too many favorable trade scenarios to occur to give yourself the edge.  It's a struggle with certain hands, but it builds skills that are necessary for understanding the opening.  It's sort of like in Chess where if you botch the opening, you don't get a chance to show any other skills because you're already dead.

On this list, I would add 2x Redemption to the card pool.  Lots of these Deathrattles you wouldn't mind bringing back for another round.  It's also necessary to add a second secret in order for Mad Scientist to not be dead as often, and Redemption is the best option in that setup.  Doing that, you will also need to replace Dancing Swords with something like Shade of Naxxramas, or Loot Hoarder if you find your Undertakers sticking around for the Deathrattles.  Paladin is somewhat less bursty by nature than Zoolock and Hunter, and so you need to supplement that weakness against Control.  You do that with sticky minions, volume draw, weapons, and a few Neutral Charge/Stealth minions. Blessing of Might is also pretty critical, both for burst and because against Aggro matchups you can use it and a Soldier to trade against a triple-buffed Undertaker.

I don't play Paladin exclusively, but Aggro Paladin has always been a deck I've had good results with, even going past Rank 5.  It's a fresh option that a lot of decks will misplay against, and it stomps in the Handlock and Control Warrior matchups.  And people have an even higher tendency to misplay their Turn 4's against it now that Paladin's midgame combos are known.

Quote from ambershee »

Quote from Justice1337 »

I mean, I understand if you don't want to pay 8+ mana for every "Silence target", but you could play Hoger, Illidan, Cairne, Sylvannus, etc, etc, and it would bait the same removal.  When the list of neutral Legendaries that are better than a Class Legendary at 5-6 mana is about 5 cards long, then you have an uninspiring class legendary.

All of these die easily to mid-game damage spells (arguably, except Cairne, since he's sticky); Bolvar's 7 health means he's tougher to remove without trading to do so, or using BGH / Silence.

Please explain how Sylvannus is easier to remove by trading than by silence, given that she steals a random minion when killed.  It seems like you need both to deal with her, which would make her better.

And @ all those who think Bolvar is a 5+ power minion on Turn 5, provided you run Chow's, Minibots, Muster, etc. That means you're not ever mulliganing Bolvar.  Keep in mind you're likely running a deck with average mana cost above 4, and now you expect to be consistently handed a 1, 2, 3 mana curve without being able to mulligan a card.  Good luck when you have the first turn.  It's just better to throw back all your cards at 4+ mana, which means you're also regretting drawing them early.  All told, your mid-game and late-game cards had better be good in the board states you intend to draw them against, and not some hypothetical where you start with your whole deck in your hand.

Quote from Plunderway »

Quote from Justice1337 »

Where Paladin continues to have problems is against Aggro.  Zoolock is probably the single worst matchup.  The swing card here used to be Consecration, but now Consecration is hardly any better than Equality even against Zoo, and you can imagine how the efficiency of that goes.  Hunter can definitely give the Paladin problems as well, since for one, Hunter's Undertaker draws go unanswered until Turn 3 or later.  Paladin lacks a 3 damage card for 2 mana.  Mech Mage and Mech Rogue can present the same difficulty, only not as bad.  Basically, getting a Paladin deck to play fast really exposes the weaknesses it has with drawing cards.  Some players have started using 1x Cult Master, the situation is that bad.

Actually I disagree with Zoo being the worst matchup. Like for real. I have like a 90% winrate against zoo with the usual midrange-ish paladin. Hunter has been a perfect 50/50 for me btw. 

I don't really think there is a big hard counter to paladin, it's got decent matchups against almost everything. The single deck that gave me problems quite sometimes is mech rogue because they can put on early aggression and can clear out recruits quite easily with blade flurry even when they are buffed. 

Maybe it depends on build.

The Pally deck that got #1 Legend on EU with Zombie Chow, Shielded Minibot, Belcher, double Quartermaster, Consecration, Knife Juggler and singleton Coghammer, now that deck looks pretty solid against Zoo, somewhat weaker against Hunter.

But it doesn't have TBK, silences, card draw, or any clock outside of the combo.  Seems to put you in an odd spot.  I don't know what EU ladder is like, but even so, I can't imagine running Paladin over other Control alternatives if it doesn't counter Handlock and Control Warrior.  Maybe it is to have an even better MU against Zoo than these decks, at the expense of the somewhat more favorable CW matchup against Hunter.  But I don't see CW or Handlock v Zoo as being very much worse, if at all, and of course those decks are great in the Control mirror as well.

Yeah, I think most pundits value Stealth appropriately.  I think the question is why Stealth is good, and in what type of deck.

For example if I am leaning to the aggressive side, I might want Tiger more than any other 5 drop, or even 3 and 4 drops, for use as a finisher.  But the Tier list says that Silver Hand Knight, Venture Co, Spectral Knight, and a lot of 4 drops are better, so somebody makes a mistake and takes that.  

For generic midrange board-control strategies, Stealth is already good enough because it blocks the opponent's opportunity to trade favorably against it, even when you are behind in tempo.  But the tier lists tend to take into account that fact, and only that fact. It can't really take into account the texture of your deck and how often you're in that situation on board at around that turn window.  Which leads to undervaluing in those situations if all a player is going by is the tier list.

Except in that Aggro situation where you're playing him out on curve, Cult Master is better the same way drawing a card is better than Whirling Blades, and you can mulligan away Cult Master safely at 100% effect, while being 1 mana cheaper.  And show me how many decks run Cult Master.

In the Control situation, show me how many Legendaries at 5-6 mana require removal.  Now, show me which ones not every Paladin is running.  Pretty big list.  Ok.  Now, show me which of those are a totally dead draw late.  Just Bolvar.  

I mean, I understand if you don't want to pay 8+ mana for every "Silence target", but you could play Hoger, Illidan, Cairne, Sylvannus, etc, etc, and it would bait the same removal.  When the list of neutral Legendaries that are better than a Class Legendary at 5-6 mana is about 5 cards long, then you have an uninspiring class legendary.

If "dies to removal" isn't a thing, then "baits removal" shouldn't be either.

Double Lay on Hands will make you into a "Control" Pally and not a "Midrange" Pally.  Difference being that you are not going to be able to push threats into critical windows in matchups like Handlock and Control Warrior.

Depending on what your weapon usage looks like, I would be sure you've got the full 2x Truesilver, then add a Seal of Light or two if 1x Healbot is not enough.

Also, try to save your Belchers for the late game phase, and use any other response for early minions if you have it.  But keep in mind how you will bait Swipes.  An Aldor will usually do it, and there aren't a lot of targets for Follow the Rules, besides, so don't balk at playing one into an empty board.

This idea that a 20/7 Bolvar is more "vulnerable to silence" than a 5/7 Bolvar is nonsense.  Either your opponent silences him or he doesn't.  If he does, then it's the same result in either case.  If you hold Bolvar in your hand until your opponent draws a silence, you probably misplayed.

Bolvar is an odd card in that the more delineated your strategy is, the worse he becomes.  He is worse the more aggressive your deck gets because will mulligan him away 100% of the time, regret drawing him in the first 3 turns 100% of the time, and then play him as a 4/7 or smaller the rest of the time.  He's also worse the more Control oriented your deck becomes because you'll have fewer and fewer minions dying, and will have lower and lower threat density.  It's only at the perfect balance of midrange, do nothing crappiness that Bolvar is an efficient card.  And that is probably a bad deck.

If you think spamming midrange Legendaries is for you, Feugen and Stalaag eat just as many Silences while being better topdecks.

The problem is that too many scrubs play this game.

Every TCG player should have the experience of playing a tournament in the Legacy format of MTG when Dredge and Survival were played.  You basically had one card in your deck and/or sideboard that could interact with either of those decks, otherwise you lost in the first three turns.  And all the while, you couldn't grind hundreds of ladder games to push thin advantages against those decks over time.  Your entire campaign as a serious player in a given season was determined by how your shuffle went during a series of 7 or so games against random opponents.

And even still, there wasn't half the whining as there is about Hunters in this game.

This is game where you draw random cards off the top of your deck.  And in this game, there is an advantage when one player can go by without the other player interacting with him.  So, some number of decks will be able to claim victories due to other decks not being able to interact with them.  Whether it's Hunter's ability to just ignore your Taunt by silencing it, or it's Miracle's OTK's.  You lose that game.  You don't have some divine right for any of the cards you included for that matchup to show up in your hand, or to have a decisive effect on the game when they're played.  Some draws against some opponents are going to be unwinnable for you.

Queue up and play another game.  If you've got solid matchups and your play is good, it will all work out over time.  Whining about Aggro needs to stop, because it just makes people look juvenile.

My thought is that Undertaker won't get more powerful with better Deathrattle cards, but it would get more powerful if even one more Aggro card interacted with Deathrattles itself.  Because if good Deathrattles are added at low mana costs, then they'd also fall in line with the Control philosophy of not committing anything to the board early unless it returns value when killed.

I also don't think that Blizzard is serious about handling Undertaker if what they're printing is Lil' Exorcist and Scarlet Purifier.  Those cards don't interact with Undertaker, they interact with Deathrattles.  It's as if they printed more answers to 3/2's for 2 mana in order to combat Shattered Sun Clerics.  It totally misses the mark.  What would be an answer to Undertaker is a single-shot defensive minion at 1 mana that scales up, something like a Patient Assassin.

Generally though, I don't take statements about internal testing with very much weight.  Obviously, the card has already passed through the most rigorous internal testing they could put it to, otherwise it wouldn't have been released.  It's when the competitive player base absorbs a card that it's maximum potential is discovered, and if at that point there is an unsolvable imbalance in the metagame, Blizzard redresses it.

As to whether that kind of imbalance exists, it clearly doesn't when the best performing class in the meta is Warlock.  On the contrary, there is no way at this point that it would be smart to harm a Hunter deck that is used as a counter to the Warlock.  If Blizzard sees it as fine, that's probably because it really is 100% fine.

Yeah, Hearthstone players have been dealing with Force-Savage for a long time, and that combo is a lot harder to interact with.  Your only option is to keep the board clear and your health above 14.  More importantly, that combo has kept Druid as a solidly middle-tier class since release, and design would love that for every class.

Paladin now seems pretty similar to Druid, actually.  Each has problems drawing cards and spells that are not efficient on mana, but make up for it with solid class minions and some decent combos.