Hearthpwn

I honestly didn't think it was possible for a meta to be this bad. I don't even feel like I get to actually play the game in most matches. It seems like the majority games are decided in the mulligan, with little to no decision making at all on either end. This game doesn't even seem fixable at this point. 

It's also getting slightly nauseating to watch Rogues play 5+ cards every turn & ending up with more cards than they started with. 

Quote from Shed >>

Tickatus is fine, 13 Mana to burn 5 cards and 23 to burn 10, all over the course of 3 turns, will be played only in control decks to fight combo decks and greedier control decks or in combo decks that aims to blow up your deck anyway. Meanwhile Rin, the First Disciple exists, is way more powerful, does not require setup, has taunt, has way more stats, actually deletes your deck and to balance it out, it costs 8 more mana. Was widely played during it's stay in standard and nobody complained to this extent.

 Rin?...way more powerful than Tickatus? Good lord, I’ve seen some hilariously bad takes on here, but this might be the coup de grace. 

Quote from Tyk3 >>

Quote from PetiteMouche >>

 

My god you guys are so toxic.. The op is being respectful and reasonable, says things like "it SEEMS problematic TO ME", can't you just tell him why you think he's wrong ?

I like how everyone thinks of himself as a great card evaluator but in reality every expansion we are horribly wrong about most cards, we think we learn to be more accurate every expansion but in reality game mechanics and cards combinations evolve much faster than our ability to review them.

 

I don't see this particular combo as being problematic, but I can absolutely see a world where someone makes Felsoul Jailer problematic in some way or another. If you can make copies of it, silence it or whatever, it can quickly become a crazy anti-control/anti-combo card.

Comparison with tickatus is also unfair, the reason you don't brewmaster tickatus is because you can felosophy it instead, and also because it already costs 13 mana to corrupt and play. And it burns cards from the deck, essentially having 0 immediate impact in exchange for bigger impact later in the game. Felsoul jailer has immediate, potentially massive impact if he burns the right card, so brewmaster makes more sense.

In the grand scheme of things, it's like Tickatus, never going to be problematic because Hearthstone will always be an aggro driven game, but i'm positive a lot of hearthstone toxic members and great card reviewers are going to cry a river because Felsoul discarded their wincondition and they couldn't get back the card in time.

 Agreed, it shows the state of the forums when everytime someone puts something people don't agree with and it becomes a hivemind of people snarking and bullying and getting their self satisfying little pathetic jabs in from the safety of behind their own screen. What do mods do about it? Nothing.

 That's the Hearthstone community in a nutshell. This game seems to attract a lot of the introverted, socially awkward, angry, basement dweller types, who are incapable of meaningful discussion. Any kind of disagreement, no matter the topic, usually results in unnecessary ad hominem attacks. Anything critical is automatically written off as whining by a large majority of this player base. I honestly have no clue why most players even browse the forums, since no topic is ever actually worth discussing in their minds. 

Quote from Shadowrisen >>

Quote from Worldsapart >>

Wow, you made an entire post without trying to validate your opinion with the fact that you “went to law school” and are “a lawyer.”  

What an insecure b)%^* you are.  BTW, I agree with everything in your post.

 

now..... remove this post for being too accurate and real.

 As I've said more times than I've mentioned being a lawyer . . . quite a few more times . . . I would be the last person to suggest being a lawyer validates anything except perhaps knowledge of a specific area of the law you might practice.  And even then, no guarantees.  Given some of the troglodytes that graduate Tulane, I would never suggest such a thing.

Glad you read my posts closely enough to catch that, given that in 1108 posts, pretty sure I've mentioned that about 6 times.

In any case, there was actually an intelligent reply here, which is noteworthy.  The folks who crafted golden legendaries are definitely going to go nuts.

 I’ve crafted plenty of golden legendaries & have no issue with what they’re doing. Those cards will still exist in wild & could be brought back at some point since the core set rotates yearly. I have no clue why people are up in arms over this.

I’ll be ready to complain if they don’t include at least one of the Highlander legendaries in the core set lol.

I’m not ready to say goodbye to my beloved highlander mage just yet.

Quote from Killzun >>

Any complain or observation brings the juice drinking trolls out

 This is the main problem I have with the hearthstone community. A large number seem absolutely incapable of having any kind of actual discussion. Click on any thread, no matter the subject, & you will see all the same comments. 

"Quit whining/crying"

"Play aggro" 

"Git gud" 

Very few meaningful comments, if any at all. Just an absolute unwillingness to even attempt to put together a compelling argument. This obviously doesn't apply to everyone, but this is the primary reason I no longer visit the main subreddit at all. 

Why is noone mentioning Reno Jackson? There were plenty of complains when this card went to the wild...

Quote from enoX_36 >>

Quote from Goodlake >>

Quote from Popeye123 >>

Third, tickatus is nowhere near mindrender illucia’s power level. Tickatus is much much MUCH slower and the player has to be ahead on board or at least not behind to play tickatus. Illucia is 3 mana and can pretty much steal a win if a good player knows the matchup and when to play her. 

 

 1) Mindrender Illucia requires good timing and the Priest player runs the risk of his opponent making good use of the Priest's own cards, including the topdeck on the next turn. While it can steal a win against ETC warrior or Il'Gynoth DH, it can also miss if you've mistimed the play. It's a card that rewards skill in certain matchups and punishes misplays. Tickatus, on the other hand, just rewards the player for putting it in his deck and the only punishment is that it's usually a dead card against aggro. It almost doesn't even matter what is burned against most control matchups, because pushing your opponent 10 cards towards fatigue and destroying their resources is so powerful. Illucia is immensely more skill testing and immensely more fair.

2) As for Tickatus being anti control/combo tech, isn't that what people are complaining about? It's a card that simply wins certain matchups and requires no skill to play. The card is good at what it does, but what it does shouldn't exist.

 This is simply not true. OTK decks kill you before turn 8 nowadays, if you play mozaki mage and don't kill your opponent by that turn you either draw poorly or play badly. Tickatus stands no chance against those decks while that "skillful" mindrender illucia can disrupt combos in more ways than you expect. You don't hit mozaki? Just play their apprentices and all the burn cards. You don't hit illgynoth? Play their mo'args and life steal spells. No ETC? No problem, play mercenary, inner rage/penflinger and broom. It's so easy to beat otk decks with illucia, people started playing priest with her as the only minion, c'thun for mirror matchup and galakrond for value, everything else being removal. Her effect is just brain dead, 0 skill involved. Just don't play her on turn 3, that's all you need to do.

Mindrender Illucia isn't even in every Priest deck, whereas Tickatus is in every warlock deck besides Zoo. Every one! That's because there is no downside to playing Tickatus beyond queuing into a bad matchup, whereas poor Illucia play can punish a Priest player as much as the opponent. Stats on mindrender are hard to come by, but the most popular HL Priest deck at legend gives her a 40.5% played WR, compared to a 51% deck WR (Tickatus has >60% played WR). And that's at legend! That should raise some eyebrows when we talk about skill testing.

Mindrender requires you to recognize the deck you're facing, what the wincon is, when they're likely to have key combo pieces in their hand and can only be played when you yourself aren't holding anything your opponent can use. Tickatus requires you to play Galakrond or Twisting Nether while it's in your hand and then you're taking your opponent to fatigue and then he comes down as soon as it's safe, which is a reasonably easy condition to create with all the removal at Warlock's disposal.

The reward/punishment framework is a useful one when comparing cards like this. What is the punishment for playing Tickatus poorly? You don't burn the "right" cards? Probably doesn't necessarily matter, you've still put your opponent 5 cards closer to fatigue and have deprived him of 5 resources he was counting on while building the deck, while giving him an 8/8 he has to deal with immediately. Compare to Illucia, where opponents have the opportunity to utilize your own cards for their benefit, including potentially ruining your C'Thun, playing your Galakrond, etc. If you highroll and steal their ETC, Il'Gynoth or Mozaki, then yeah, you've just highrolled and stolen a game against specific combo opponent. Grats. If you don't, then you've wasted a turn, given your opponent potentially valuable resources and generated almost nothing for yourself.

We can construct hypothetical examples for when either card wins games or when they don't, but the statistics seem to suggest that Tickatus is an "I win" card in the matchups where he's playable (i.e. everything except aggro), while Illucia is a dead card against most opponents that you're potentially better off not playing in all but the most specific cases.

Quote from Popeye123 >>

Third, tickatus is nowhere near mindrender illucia’s power level. Tickatus is much much MUCH slower and the player has to be ahead on board or at least not behind to play tickatus. Illucia is 3 mana and can pretty much steal a win if a good player knows the matchup and when to play her. 

....

Tickatus is literally a tech/counter card for grindy control matchups which is what it is perfect for honestly, giving you card advantage and giving your opponent a disadvantage if you burn something important. And it puts them closer to fatigue. It’s a control tech card, and it performs its role perfectly.

 1) Mindrender Illucia requires good timing and the Priest player runs the risk of his opponent making good use of the Priest's own cards, including the topdeck on the next turn. While it can steal a win against ETC warrior or Il'Gynoth DH, it can also miss if you've mistimed the play. It's a card that rewards skill in certain matchups and punishes misplays. Tickatus, on the other hand, just rewards the player for putting it in his deck and the only punishment is that it's usually a dead card against aggro. It almost doesn't even matter what is burned against most control matchups, because pushing your opponent 10 cards towards fatigue and destroying their resources is so powerful. Illucia is immensely more skill testing and immensely more fair.

2) As for Tickatus being anti control/combo tech, isn't that what people are complaining about? It's a card that simply wins certain matchups and requires no skill to play. The card is good at what it does, but what it does shouldn't exist.

It should cost 12 and remove 20 cards from your deck, if it's corrupted then destroy your own hero. Such a broken card with 90% played winrate and every tickatus deck having over 80% wr is not healthy for the game. It feeds on no brain control decks, it's literally at Mindrender Illucia's level of insta win against otk decks, it beats aggro so easily because warlocks have 31 aoe cards in their decks and heal for 25+ every game because of the soul fragments. Who even had the idea to make control warlock so bonkers? It will define the standard meta for the next 3 years.

Quote from AndreiLux >>

Yes, and you're allowed to hit Warlock's face.

 Yes, the warlock does not have anything in his deck to remove minions. Yes indeed.

Any complain or observation brings the juice drinking trolls out

Hey Standard Galakrond Priest, nice job beating my Big Warrior in fatigue. Maybe the Alexstraza you pulled from Skeletal Dragon off of Draconic Studies helped. Or perhaps it was the TWO Kalcegos you played off of that skeletal dragon. Those polymorph spells off of Kalcegos were pretty amazing. Very useful to handle my pesky Scrapyard Colossus with Divine Shield. 

I’ll bet the Madame Lazul off of Galakrond hero power into copying the 12/11 upgraded Kargath Prime in my hand was helpful. Especially after you put a 10/10 copy of him on your side of the board with mindgames while he was still in my deck. Two is better than one. Oh wait, the turn after I played him, you played Murozond, also off of your hero power. So you got 3 Kargath primes.

Mindflayer Kaahrj off of hero power was a slick play. Good thinking, using that on my Runaway Blackwing. Which immediately killed the kaahrj with its end of turn effect, summoning a blackwing for you. To hit face with. And use to kill my own blackwing.

Kargath Prime (3), Kalcegos (2), Alexstrasza (1), Lazul (1), Murozond (1), and Kaahrj (1) makes 9 legendaries, all not in your deck, and 5 not in your class, that you got to use. Must be nice to have a deck with no win condition. Much easier to do so with 9 extra legendaries. Gg! That was super fun!

At least I remembered to squelch before we got started. So I have that going for me. Oh wait. The next game was Ramp Pally with Alura into coin on turn 5. 
Everyone knows how that ends up...

Just put both in, that way you have higher chance to have one of them on 5. That's what I'm doing in my highlander Mage :)

Yes!!!! We need more cards like this!!! 10/10

Weakens aggros and buffs control decks.