Hearthpwn

The point of the topic is that if something becomes good meaning it starts beating people on ladder the complain season starts till something in it gets nerfed inside the first month of new cards. Instead of focusing on different methods to resolve the problem as that deck 9/10 times not all times is not that over powered that it needs a nerf its just good enough that if you threw 1-2 buffs on cards somewhere else youd vary up the meta a little.

For example it isnt the nerf to refreshing spring water that made control warrior viable in standard it was the buff to Shield Maiden. All the nerf to refreshing spring water did was bring mage down about 5% in its consistancy and win rating that just wasnt needed. The lunacy nerf was enough to that deck and you still see it played its just not really nearly as good being the deck that got alot of people there losses in GM's rankings. 

Carb rider nerf was needed to standard but honestly I think in wild it actually hurt warrior more than paladin with consistancy options outside pirate warrior.

The point being the buff to 1-2 cards can make a difference to bring a deck into playability that was not playable previously rather than the nerf stick all the time.

The only cards I think needed a nerf in standard this rotation were Pen Flinger, Deck of Lunacy and Crab Rider,  and they could all probably be unnerfed when they move to wild without to much of an issue. If I was going to add any other card to the list it would probably be Oh My Yogg. I dont think incanters flow needs a nerf in wild or standard. Neither of the decks that use it are unmanageable Just in that 55%-59% win rate even with nothing nerfed. Which there are other decks performing just as good or better in both formats at the time and after. And regarding oh my yogg im not even sure how you would nerf that really other than adding discover a spell and allowing the player to target with it really as the only real option to kind of nerf it.

It would make the deck more sustainable basically kings bane is generally a weaker version of Spectral Cutless at the moment if you pair both decks kingsbane will lose 9/10 times in the mirror match while its more aggressive just running the same shell with cutless you get very similar results the only difference being when you run into that rare match where you get hit with an Ooze and you lose your weapon your just scouping the sustain on the Cutless has more uptime but with a less aggressive start your loosing more to combo than with kingsbane.

They should actually unnerf leeching poison in wild it wouldnt really put kingsbane at a point of no return. It would be more in line powerwise with some of the other decks probably low tier 1 upper tier 2.

Refreshing spring water was not enough to put mage over a 60% win rate and its sitting on lower tier in standard currently. In wild flamewalker mage was better with refreshing spring water instead you end up in both formats with an over load of paladin. Kings bane is also not hard to beat you can beat a kings bane deck with the mirror match running the 4 cost weapon that has life steal built in super easily. Dark Glare Beats it. Anything with a decient amount of taunt can beat it. Faster aggro decks. Its not a bad deck but there are decks that can also combo kill you faster than a kings bane aggro deck can. Ive even beaten kings bane playing APM rogue.

Quote from Kurgo >>

Quote from HS_Vault >>

 

In wild format Shaman probably struggles the most for decks in general alongside demon hunter. Priest Lacks versitility its pretty much big priest or reno priest. This is where you need to look at what can be done to create more versitility rather than nerf it cause its good. Some players enjoy those deck arch types instead of nerfing it look at ways to create different options that finds an arch type for you.

Shaman doesn't struggle in wild in any way whatsoever. Even shaman, murloc shaman and reno shaman are all extremely viable decks (murloc shaman is basically battling with pirate warrior for best board-centric aggro deck). DH, funnily enough, has exactly as many good archetypes as rogue currently does (i.e. one) or warrior for that matter. Saying shaman struggles with its 3 decent decks and conveniently forgetting how garbage hunter is hilarious, to be blunt.

Can we also realise that freeze is one of those mechanics that have been thought of as unfun since the dawn of hearthstone (freeze mage was a fairly weak deck and it still caused an awful lot of grief)? There's a reason why blizzard made freeze shaman cards utter shite, and it's not because they couldn't think "oh, this would be far more viable if we added a few stats on it".

  Yeah you do need to learn to play murlock shaman is a low tier 2 high tier 3 deck. Even Shaman are virtually non existant except odd game against a gutter legends player after you hit diamond even. You are pretty much always pairing murlock shaman in wild after diamond though there was a decient galakrond deck going around in wild for a little bit But again every deck that shaman plays in wild if you were above gold rank you would realize is not competative.

Saying hunter is worst than shaman is not accurate as well. Plenty of people have hit legend on the back of even hunter. Highlander hunter is about as good as shudderwok shaman, and there are plenty of low tier 3 mid tier 2 decks in wild. Also standard has a pretty heavy ladder for hunter.

Regarding Flamewalker mage in wild it was never a good deck it was easy to deal with unless you were bad at the game you toss in a couple of tech cards and it was resolved. Which was one of the favorable matches for hunter snipe / pressure plate like wrecks it as a deck and they are not bad secrets in general vs most classes.

If you ever hit above gold in wild format youd realize most control decks do not work for any length of time. Outside an HCS you can only play them when the ladder is favorable for control.

This is a subject I am not a fan of in general every time a deck reaches popularity you hear scream NERF it. People need to get off the nerf it subject unless a deck has a 60% or better win rate nerfs do not really need to be considered at all. It is just the current flavor of the month. Hearthstone is one of the most horrible games for nerfing cards. Everytime you get a few people that dont like a card you hear screams nerf it nerf it I dont like playing against it you look at card games like magic you rarely see cards banned nerfed ect it takes at least over a month to have the ban list even looked at and unless the meta is super popular with 1 archtype or a deck has a ridiculous win rate with no way to play against it you never see an action taken. Hearthstone every time a card beats a person a few times on ladder everyone screams nerf it nerf it.

Currently of the cards that got nerfs that needed nerfs crab rider and deck of lunacy are the only cards I personally agree needed nerfs. The first day of school thing while a nerf in standard was actually semi a buff in wild format. Instead of focusing on what needs to be nerfed to disrupt a deck type from seeing play I think we need to look at more of what needs to be buffed or fixed to make other decks feel less like they will never see play. Nothing should get nerfed unless the deck has a polarising win rate from it specifically talking about deck of lunacy which deck of lunacy on 2 increased deck win rates from 55-60% to around 80% which is too much. Most mage decks sitting around 58%. Which is not too high and in some ways checked other decks.

Other cards I feel like needed attention in classes struggling to buff them instead of nerfsticking classes that were in an ok spot. When you nerf every deck you dont like playing against you instead are just making alot of cards unplayable instead of fixing the archtypes that need something and creating a new problem that leads to more NERF IT NERF IT. Refreshing Spring water did not need a nerf what happened when you nerfed it mage became alot less competative and paladin completely took over the format. When they nerfed Lunacy mage was still a popular choice but it wasnt the first string choice in alot of cases and that is a healthy nerf.

Currently you have people screaming nerf tickatus nerf incanters flow ect. The Cards dont need nerfs mage is not that good currently and id argue there are alot more decks that out play mage.

Control warrior is getting better which is a plus. I do not think nerfing refreshing spring water impacted that in any way. Crabrider being nerfed helped that and it was a good nerf as it didnt ruin the card completely in standard but really impacted wild aggression more so and impacted warrior more in wild than paladin. But paladin more so than warrior in standard. So it was a healthy nerf to standard.

Regarding standard play currently shaman is the class that needs attention and control warrior a little more love wouldnt hurt. Druid also needs more options than just playing token druid.

Of all the cards in standard/wild that may need a nerf the only card I honestly would consider is Oh my Yogg everything else just leave it alone and focus on what needs buffs. To make classes less comperative better.

Metas change if one deck is slightly more dominant with say a 59% win rate get over it. It happens every time the meta changes. The idea should be trying to get as many decks as possible in the 50-55% range without nerfing a deck with a slight edge instead of nerfing stuff to create less options and another polar deck look at buffing cards to fix problems and create more versitility. But in small incriments unless a class is really struggling. (Shaman).

In wild format Shaman probably struggles the most for decks in general alongside demon hunter. Priest Lacks versitility its pretty much big priest or reno priest. This is where you need to look at what can be done to create more versitility rather than nerf it cause its good. Some players enjoy those deck arch types instead of nerfing it look at ways to create different options that finds an arch type for you.

For example more free options better curve on freeze cards for freeze shaman in wild. In standard look at ways to add more options to shaman we got a card draw tool coming out for it in standard its a step in the right direction but I still think Shaman needs a better curve and a value generator. This is the stuff you need to look at is how can I make deck a b c d better so people will want to play it more try it more and not feel comperatively at a massive disadvantage. This is what we should be doing instead of getting on the nerf wagon.

It all depends what kind of deck your playing and how well positioned your removal is vs the opposing aggression on who wants to play first. Most games being a more mid range and control preference as a player I would rather play second so i get my extra card as a removal option to stave off those aggressive minions. However if my hand is clogged with bad cards id prefer to be playing first so that i have the extra turn to draw into something so i get that one extra turn im taking less damage. If im playing the aggressive match id generally perfer to play first exceptions really explosive openers off the coin and card draw reloads. Where im sending 5-6 + damage face on turn 2 other wise as the aggro player going first. If your playing a very high rush deck like Galakrond in wild going second is almost better in most games especially against aggro. But vs control you often want to be going first so your applying pressure earlier forcing them to constantly be reacting so you can get them as low as possible as fast as possible so you just looking for that last 2-3 damage to end the game.

It depends on the deck the match and whos the aggressor in the match. In a game with no real extreme aggressor like a control mirror your looking at how often you can take off a turn to reload. Most slower control mirrors who goes first or second has little impact.

Blizzard has this thing where they cant create and balance shaman cards well they don't really take any kinda of dispositional approach to it and cross compaire it with similar cards. Other wise half the shit that got released would be like hey you know this is really a shittier version of this neutral card maybe we should buff it a little.

There is a possibility with even gms and alot of the larger streamers bitching they need to address shaman however they tend to do a really shitty job of addressing shaman they either do something insane like:

Wink Wink Totem
2 Mana
5/5
Overload 1
Rush
Frenzy: Discover 3 Elementals and 2 totems.

1 Month Later it gets nerfed to:

Poo Poo Totem
5 Mana
4/4
Overload 2
Rush
Frenzy: Discover an elemental.

or they just create cards that fall short of what everything else including neutral cards are doing.

In aggro match ups going first is better but in other match ups such as pair offs with midrange vs aggro your rather go second to take back tempo, and depending on the amount of removal you have going second can be better in control so you can clear there board faster but it really depends on the match generally playing rogue you almost always perfer to play second cause of combo.

Quote from HatShapedHat >>

Quote from FortyDust >>

You put way too much time and energy into something that's most likely going to be addressed by new expansion cards.

 What indication has blizzard given that any of this will be addressed?  

 2 of the issues may be addressed but i still dont see them addressing the curve issues. I would hope to see them address a card draw mechanic and a value mechanic or be very dissappointed in Blizzard.

I would create something like a 3 mana overload 2 draw 4. and add a few cards that give you discover the tempo loss would set shaman back a turn in order to draw since your losing your turn 4 to draw 2 cards your paying eq of 7 mana for a draw 4 which is in line with Sprint. It doesnt really have any other good card draw currently so it would be ok. Im sure someone could come up with a better designed idea.

Another Idea would be 2 mana if you have a totem in play draw 2 cards. Or 2 mana if you played an elemental last turn draw 2 cards. Even 2 mana if you played a spell last turn draw 2 cards would also work.

And for value generators

Thrall Champion of the Elements
6 Mana
5 Armor (Standard)
Battlecry: Play 2 copies of an elemental you played on your last turn. (If those minions had battlecrys targets are chosen at random)
Hero Power: Summon any random totem as a 2/2 totem. (IE You could get a normal totem as a 2/2 or your could get 2/2 mana tide or 2/2 flame tongue totem.

Your getting potentially as much value as 2 al'akirs. Super high value your getting the value of battlecrys if not and your getting a slightly upgraded hero power. Because the value varies when its played it can be higher value if you play it later. You might just need a double earth revanent or something similar to keep you alive but at the same time that double al'akir is a potential 12 damage to face played following up al'akir because of the versitility of the card it could see play in multuple decks for different reasons. Its hero power could net you a 2/2 searing totem ... flop. But it could also net you a 2/2 mana tide and draw you a card it however these are just ideas off the top of my head that would need balance testing rather than looking at existing cards. Those are examples that would bring up the shaman power level in standard.

One of the big issues is they dont create enough power for overload in alot of cases dustdevil to 0 overload would be too powerful. When i looked at cards it was a compairson of cards by adding the overload to the cost of the card and factoring in that it does cause you a reduced power turn. Being overloaded is almost worth +1.5 mana when you consider the downside of being overloaded.

Also overload almost wants does need pay off cards. But even if you reduced the overload on every overload card by 1 it wouldnt fix some of the issues shaman has. Shaman has a severe lack of card draw and a severe lack of value cards. Its not just a small amount you could compare priest as the closest class when you look at removal and healing that shaman has. The problem is in comparison to priest shaman has almost no card generation or card draw. Both priest and shaman have great board removal and great healing but priests case its more consistantly available and in alot of cases you can generate tools to resolve the situation while your looking for you key pieces also priest has win conditions. Shaman doesnt have that shaman has random card generation. No Draw mechanics. Also it has one of the worst curves in the meta.

When you make direct comparisons there are NEUTRAL CARDS that are STRONGER than SHAMAN CLASS CARDS. This is a very frequent thing. There are lots of examples you can compare here with direct value.

Shaman needs card draw mechanics that are not complete garbage a smoothed out curve fixed and balanced with its overload mechanics and actual win conditions outside luck sacking into over the top burn when your playing aggro.

You have generate 2 1/2 taunts in druid. Saronite chain gang in neutral for same mana cost when you factor overload. Baracade at 4 mana. There are just alot better cards at same cost compared to cards like spirit wolves. The overload on it alone is really unbalanced since it should be eq to a 4.5 mana value as you lose tempo on your next turn. It sets you a turn back and that needs to be considered when you factor overload spirit wolves is basically a worst saronite chain gang. You could argue it comes out a turn earlier but its just not good especially later in the game your losing momentium in turns that follow you may be looking to curve out your 5 drop on say turn 4 and you play it so your getting a worst saronite chain gang playing it on turn 4.

But vault you could play it a turn earlier...Not worth it. Theres a reason the card doesnt see play when you compare it to the a card with the approximate same value in mana. Overload creates tempo loss on the following turn so the value has to be better than 1 for 1. Overloaded mana crystals should be treated as 1.5 mana in value.

So you look at a card like dust devil 1 mana 3/1 not a big deal. Overload 2 ok so your saying this card should be worth 4 mana in value Windfury is not 4 mana in value. if you were to overload 1 yes its ok. Your trading half the play value of your next turn for potential burst. You can potentially follow it up with a taunt if they dont answer asap. chances are it still gets answered but if it doesnt your getting value for your play. Thats what needs to be looked at against rogue druid mage and demon hunter as well as probably warlock this is always getting removed on turn 2 and most other classes are still gonna 1 for 1 trade with it. Lightning storm while its strong removal and you could argue overload 2 is balanced honestly overload 1 would not hurt the card loss of tempo still happens but its a little better than alot of 4 mana aoe removal. Lightning storm is about a 4.5 mana value. Comparing with of course cards like rancor Holy Nova ect. I could do this break down when I looked at every shaman card with overload.

Same end there are cards that shouldnt be reduced. Sludge Slurper is basically 3 mana value in a 1 mana card your getting a lackey on a 1 mana card with a 2/1 body which is a bit better than a 1/1 your talking a 3/2 with upside on a 1 mana card. That is worth close to 3 mana in value its at least a 2.5 mana value so its overload is balanced. Thats what overload should look like 1.5 mana value for each overload crystal.

Earth Elemental can be directly compaired to Nosdormu one that can make turns 15 seconds 7 mana 8/8 however your also compairing its so giving it 1 attack to off set tempo loss when you factor the taunt would bring it in line power wise. Also the fact its a class card says a little better than a neutral card is ok and its neutral legendary so. No immediate board impact no possible upside its ok. Probably still wouldnt see play but if overload shaman became a thing maybe.

This is something people often do not consider when thinking about it is its just bad. Its not necessarily just bad its just not balanced. Because shamans card draw is so bad even if they added a couple of card draw options it still wouldnt be in line with other classes on net card draw power adding a few card draw mechanics and tuning it in par would bring it up to par with classes.

Quote from b1ak1ce >>

shamans problems are just simply they are worse versions of existing archetypes for other classes. What they need is a unique mechanic like librams or soul shards to really stand out.

 The problem is that every archtype shaman gets is so nutured because they have a good deck now and then that is competative its like blizzard is afraid to give them anything valuable. Shaman is just as bad in wild as it is in standard.

Every Archtype they present has a neutral card that is similar but better. The duelist mechanic from darkmoon fair...em 3/2 and a 1/2 for 4 mana vs saronite chain gang 2 2/3's for 4 mana with taunt. Spirit wolves = 2 2/3's with taunt again when you factor overload in for 4 mana. The class is competing with neutral cards using there class cards and often at a tempo loss.

There are cards that are () close to being good enough but they just dont ever get that fix that makes them good enough and blizzard get so nervous making a decient shaman card that since shudderwok and the overload era. They are like Oh this shaman card might be too good if we did this whats a neutral card that similar ok thats the mana cost.

Class cards generally have a value of 1 mana less than a neutral equivilent or some advantage over a neutral card that is similar. - They are not the only class to feel that lately with illidari inquisitor and alextraza basically Nutoring King Krush. Blizzard really generally needs to think about better balancing on net. With curve and mana cost vs value for classes.

Specifically talking standard cards standard does need more help than just a small change mostly because in standard shaman not only lacks card draw but any value limiting it to aggression and a bad curve.

My thoughts on changing elemental curves there would help elementals balance out for shaman and curve better but shaman still needs a card draw outlet and a value engine in standard if hagatha was printed in standard they would have a value engine but shaman has 3 bad points against it currently making it weak compaired to other classes. 

Its 3/4/5 Mana turns are really not great. It cant draw with the other aggressive classes relying on over the top damage to much without the means to reach it. Its aoe and healing can be better than other classes but again it never reaches those cards most of the time. Its card draw tools are weaker and less impactful than other classes and when you reach the late game you never have the value to compete with the other late game classes.

You compare its draw to rogue or mage for example ancestral knowledge is 4 mana draw 2 and lose tempo vs mage that has a potential gain 1 mana draw 2 and a 3 mana draw 2 or rogue which has 0 mana draw 2 card effects far sight was ok at 3 mana draw 1 but it was basically free but then again same time rogue basically has 0 mana draw 2 as well. Mana tide totem at 3 mana is often again draw 1 card lose tempo. Farsight was there only card that didnt necessarily cause a loss of tempo but it was more like a 50/50 on tempo vs value with your curve.

Shaman if ancestral recall was in standard with an overload of 1 and 1 other draw mechanic that was good combined with some value generator like hagatha would be in an ok spot still needs curving help but it would probably make shaman good enough to consider like mid tier 2 with curving youd see shaman in upper tier 2 and competative with other decks.

Right now shaman has the worst curve, the weakest draw, the least value engines and the worst tempo of any class. When the expansion first hit and we saw the aggro shaman showing up i had some hopes that maybe it would be good enough but it often falls just short of the marker not having the steam to push over the top as it runs out of gas and being overpowered often in the early game.  Eventually shaman just basically loses the tempo game in every match.

The only way to fix all of that is better curving and card draw. But that curving better balancing overloads better in line with similar cards resolves that.

Chillwind yeti perfect example its a 4/5 for 4 mana you need to compaire that with Lilypad lurker originally its a 5 mana card that was formely 4/5 with hex but on condition. Theres no good curve play into lilypad lurker. Making it a 5/6 doesnt resolve that problem alot of the time its dead in your hand. Play it and lose the value or dont play it and lose tempo. You could make it a 6/7 or a 7/8 and it still wouldnt be good enough to bring shaman in line with other classes. It would just be a big beat stick that gets removed in alot of cases. Hex which i think runs the same logic as polymorphe could be dropped to 3 mana and be fine other classes do have tools that run in line with that. Also a class card is expected to be just a little better than a neutral card. So having a Lilypad lurker on 4 with a revanent on 3 would give shamans some 3 mana elemental options and bring lilypad into line of being just good enough to see play. But you still have some value issues so adding the discover mechanic to Menacing nimbus helps insure that curve is around when you need it. Meaning your more consistantly get your trigger at 4 mana even when you have to sacrifice a little tempo.

Thats what shaman needs a curve that flows much smoother card draw to prevent you gassing out constantly and value so you dont feel trapped always in late game against other control matches.