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    posted a message on Current meta
    Quote from Xynot >>
    Quote from Fishtard >>

    bored of hunter DK on 6, fighting hunters every other game if not every game, really just waiting for april so deathstalker can rotate out

     Unfortunately, DK doesn't make much difference in these decks, unless you stumble upon someone playing a control warrior.  Now the Emerald Spellstone rotating out, that's a horse of a different colour.  It will retire both spell hunter and secret hunter, unless they print another S-tier to replace it, which if RR is any indication, they won't.  My hunter prediction for the next set is that you are going to get sick of hearing that horn.

     Doesn't make much of a difference except for those not infrequent times where it makes ALL the difference. The only time where it actually makes no difference are against OTK decks. And even then if you're able to get enough beetles out against certain OTK decks... Being able to drop huge over-statted minions for no card resources used except a single one-off 6 mana hero card (that doesn't even necessarily drops tempo)  does in fact make a difference. 

    Even if it did nothing but shut out control decks it would still be a bullshit card. They nerfed Quest Rogue TWICE because it shut out control decks. The last nerf affected 3 OTK decks because it shut out control decks. And those required an entire deck to be built around it. DK Rexxar is a single card that is slotted into EVERY. SINGLE. HUNTER. DECK. 

    Posted in: General Discussion
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    posted a message on The December 2018 Nerfs Discussion Thread

    Because nerfing legendaries means a whole lot more free dust for the user. Small indie company, can't just give away fake digital semi-currency. The devs' virtual children need to eat too. 

    There's no way to indirectly nerf DK Rexxar; it's a fully self-contained card that generates infinite value.  They'll just wait 4 months for the problem to go away naturally. 

    Posted in: General Discussion
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    posted a message on RR dead on arrival, but there’s hope

    The problem isn't in the expansion, it's in their slow responses or complete refusals to swing the nerf bat around.

    Previous expansions have cards that are too strong? "Oh, the community will be fine playing the same decks for the next year, no problem there. "

    Nerf the cards warping the meta and "design space"? "Are you batshit crazy? We can't just REFUND our fake in-game semi-currency!"

    If nothing else, they should nerf their strong cards so people might actually consider using their crappy pack filler cards. If the expansion doesn't shake things up then the nerfs certainly will. 

    Posted in: General Discussion
  • 3

    posted a message on How will Artifact Affect the Hearthstone Economy

    Having to pay to play, pay to buy packs, or pay to get individual cards is going to kill most interest in the game. It's true that for people in HS who are already paying the system won't be so bad; it would actually be better in the long-term. But that's also where the problem lies. The up-front payment is a tough pill to swallow for those that aren't already set on playing the game already. 

    There-in lies the problem for Artifact. They're forcing people to pick  and invest in their game without allowing them to try first. Not only that, if they're HS players already there's a chance that those players are already invested in HS. Speaking personally I played HS since launch as a F2P before finally pre-ordering packs in Un'goro. 

    The only reason anyone is paying any attention to this game is based off of the Valve name alone. If this were from a no-name developer I doubt anyone would care at all. And even on that point it mainly concerns esports viability. 

    You know what WOULD make it an instant success though? If it was bundled with Half-Life 3. 

    Posted in: General Discussion
  • 4

    posted a message on Control players are not superior to any other

    Aggro has slowed down a lot these days and have gotten little support in comparison to control tools. Nothing new and nerfs. Odd Paladin and Odd Rogue? They're so slow any aggro deck from the past would've eaten them alive. Compare the Turn 1-2-3 plays now of the "aggro" decks now with ones from the past. The upgraded hero powers are a lot weaker in comparison but you get consistency instead. Just look at Murloc Pally compared to Odd Pally. Murloc Tidecaller into Rockpool Hunter gives 5/6 worth of stats on Turn 2. 2 1/1 dudes can't compare. 2/2 weapon for 2 mana? Fiery Win Axe gave 3/2 for 2 mana. AND it has synergy with the rest of the deck. Aggro decks these days don't take off until Turn 3-4. 

    The problem is that they lump the majority of decks into the aggro category. Face, Zoo, Tempo, Token, Burn, etc. are all different in their own way, with different strengths and weaknesses, but they consider any deck that is faster than theirs aggro. 

    Posted in: General Discussion
  • 0

    posted a message on Does Blizz actually have a design philosophy for the game?

    With Combo they need to give players tool to disrupt the Combo or stop Combo decks from reaching it so damn quickly. The Combo decks we have now are safe, easy and fast. People complain about fast aggro decks? Well, they have to be when there's so much defensive cards and it's so easy to cycle through an entire deck. 

    It also makes me sad that no one mentions Midrange decks anymore. Did we forget those used to exist too? 

    Posted in: General Discussion
  • 0

    posted a message on Should Pyroblast be banned from arena?
    Quote from zmauls >>

    Blizzard has voiced their concern about "uninteractive" cards.

    I just won an arena game by glyphing a Pyroblast for turn 8 and then finishing on turn 10. I needed to do 10 damage to my opponent. The other 66% of his life was dealt with by a spell he could do nothing to prevent or counter. In my opinion, that screams "uninteractive."

    Any savvy arena player knows that if you get to turn 10 versus a mage you need to be above 10 health or the game is over. The concept is similar to the long-nerfed Druid combo which had you dead on turn 9 if you had 14 health or less.

    I am not saying Pyroblast should be nerfed, nor am I saying it should be banned from constructed play. It is much easier to play around, and therefore much weaker, in other game modes.

    So what are your thoughts? Should Pyroblast be banned from arena?

     Why complain about Pyroblast but not the card that let you get it from thin air AND play it on 8? 

    Posted in: The Arena
  • 0

    posted a message on That old "I told you so" feeling...

    You were complaining about this expansion being aggro-aggroer-aggroest the other day. Aggro Paladin was the new cancer deck. Now you're complaining about Control? 

    Posted in: General Discussion
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    posted a message on So Aggro Paladin is the New Pirate Cancer Deck...

     What makes it cancer exactly? 

    Posted in: General Discussion
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    posted a message on This Is The Best Meta Ever?

     Raza-priest still one of the strongest decks with Big Priest getting more tools. There won't be any lasting changes in the top tiers. 

    Posted in: General Discussion
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    posted a message on Do you really think that nerfing "broken" classes and cards is better than buffing others?

    It takes less effort to nerf one card than it does buffing a bunch of cards to bring it up to a single broken card's level. Obviously they'll take the easy route. Just look at how they do nerfing; in most cases they just kill the card rather than balance. 

    Posted in: General Discussion
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    posted a message on Druid is virtually unbeatable and this needs to be changed fast
    Quote from booganzoth >>

    There is plenty to respond to here, so I'll start with the question that I am most curious about:

    What is the deck (or decks) that you wish you could be playing, but you are not able to because of Jade Druid? I'm sincerely interested to know.

    This question is specifically directed at @Grimlokus and @Criptfeind, but I'd be curious to hear from anyone else who cares to respond. For @BestHearthstoneGamer (the person who started this thread), it appears to be Pirate Warrior.

    Quote from Grimlokus>>
    You can't compare it to Un'goro because that was the beginning of a new rotation. We had to make new decks because it killed most of the old ones.
    So...innovation only happens during set rotation? If that is true, then how is making a balance adjustment to one or two cards ever going to make a difference?
    Are you trying to say Jade Druid is a problem because Quest Rogue got nerfed? Even when it got nerfed Jade Druid didn't completely take over the ladder. It was strong but nowhere near as polarizing as it is now. Jade Druid was fine before KFT came and gave them answers to all their problems.
    Yes, that's what I'm trying to say. To cite Vicious Syndicate's first Data Reaper report following the Crystal Core nerf (before KFT was released):  "We’ve said in our last report that, while Crystal Rogue was suppressing the performance of control decks, it was also suppressing the performance of Jade Druid, a notorious “control killer”. Jade Druid’s popularity jumped at the very second Crystal Rogue vanished and has seemingly taken its spot in the meta."  (https://www.vicioussyndicate.com/vs-data-reaper-report-56/)
    People love to cite Pirate Warrior, Murloc Pally, and Aggro Druid (even though it's part of the druid problem) as being just as bad or winning just as much but they seem to forget that those decks are the only ones favourable against Jade Druid without dying to everything else. PW was weakening in the meta before KFT yet they now have the highest win rate? Even though they got nothing from the expansion? Have you considered these decks have such a high win rate BECAUSE Jade Druid is widespread rather than DESPITE it? 
    Pirate Warrior, Murloc Pally, and Aggro Druid are winning just as much as Jade Druid and the data supports that. They've also been Tier 1 or close to it before, during and after the recent re-emergence of Jade Druid. Whether or not they are as "bad" is a matter of personal preference. Personally I find all of these decks equally annoying, but I recognize that is subjective. 
    Quote from Criptfeind >>
    Quote from booganzoth >>

    As of today, the most “unbeatable” archetype recorded by Vicious Syndicate’s live data is...Pirate Warrior (55%). Second place is shared by three decks: Murloc Paladin, Aggro Token Druid and Jade Druid which are each tied at 54%.

     To give a little context to this though, in the Un'goro meta the top decks were around 52-53%, with another dozen or so decks in the wings around 48% and above, and week by week the place of decks within the meta should shift back and forward as they countered each other. Right now you have jade druid and three decks that manage to counter jade druid on top, and most others in the dumpster. This paragraph you so matter of factly stated as part of an arguement for why jade druid isn't so bad might be missed by those not paying attention, but it's actually a pretty nasty condemnation of the meta as a whole and quite a reason to be justifiably worried. We're a good two weeks into the expansion now, so it's too early to say that no innovation will happen, but it's certainly a reasonable time to get worried. The assumption that the meta will always work like un'goro with fresh new innovation constantly puting the meta into turmoil is very optimistic, and I think it forgets the lessons of shamanstones past.
    How is this different from any other climate? There are a couple of dominant decks, and a few more decks that do well by countering them. At the moment the most dominant deck is Jade Druid (even though other decks are performing better or as well). Before that it was Burn Mage, which emerged as a counter to Taunt Warrior, etc...the cycle continues.
    You've probably been playing longer than me, but I don't recall anywhere near a dozen different decks meeting the parameters for Tiers 1 and 2 at the same time during Un'goro or before.
    What, in your opinion was the ideally balanced meta, and how long did it last? Did everything fall apart with the introduction of Jade Idol? Or was it a few weeks ago when KFT was released?
    I would like to play my Quest Warrior and Evolve Shaman again. Quest Warrior was always a bad match but there was more wiggle room if you could drop minions quickly enough to play it like a midrange and got lucky with the fireball. DK Evolve Shaman could be fun to play where you run mostly swarm minions. I also played a bit with a slower Dragon Priest that used buffs and N'zoth at the beginning of KFT. 
    The point of my Un'goro comment was to point out that Un'goro was not the typical expansion and shouldn't be considered the norm. With a set rotation many decks are straight up BROKEN and have to be rebuilt again. Midrange Shaman was straight-up killed with Trogg and Totem Golem removed. KFT didn't have the same effect so you can't expect things to go the same way as Un'goro. I'm not saying innovation can't happen, I'm saying that the Un'goro/KFT comparisons are flawed. It would be more accurate to compare this with MSOG and Karazhan. 
    In regards to PW, Aggro Druid, Murloc Pally you completely missed my point. When you cite win rates you're not doing any critical analysis. You're not thinking about WHY they're doing better. This is especially true of PW because they got NOTHING OF VALUE from KFT. I look at the numbers and I see a problem. The field is represented solely by Jade Druid and decks Jade Druid doesn't instantly eat alive. I see it as showing Jade Druid having EXTREMELY strong match ups but they don't have a counter-balancing weak match up. Even their unfavourable match ups aren't so bad as to really affect their ability to win. 
    Even the last two weeks before the expansion 7 classes had T1/T2 decks. It was easily a dozen decks. 
    Jade Druid before KFT was only a T2 deck. The only issue with Jade Idol was that it was infinitely repeatable. Jade Druid had strengths and weaknesses that most decks could exploit or punish. You couldn't be too greedy with ramp or you'll have no board and no hand. You had to be careful about letting enemy boards get too big because you had no decent AOE until Primordial Drake. You had no way of dealing with buffed big minions besides trading. Why do you think old Jade Druid ran so much armour? KFT made those weaknesses negligible. That was when things fell apart. Ramp too hard? Ultimate Infestation. Board too big? Spreading Plague. Big minions? You have room for control cards because you don't need Auctioneer and armour to survive ramping too hard and big enemy boards. 
    The rate we're headed we're going to see a return of the midrange Shaman era where there was only Midrange Shaman, Renolock, and Pirate Warrior. 
    Posted in: General Discussion
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    posted a message on Druid is virtually unbeatable and this needs to be changed fast
    Quote from Aegis24 >>
    Quote from Grimlokus >>
    Quote from booganzoth >>
    Quote from bny >>
    Quote from booganzoth >>
    Quote from bny>>
    Quote from booganzoth>>
    Quote from LobsterEmperor>>
    Quote from booganzoth>>
    Quote from Harmonius>>
    Quote from booganzoth>>

    For those who are interested in looking at some data, you may be surprised to learn that the deck with the current highest win rate is...not Jade Druid.

    It is Murloc Paladin. 

    Sixty percent of the top ten decks - including the top spot - at hsreplay.net are Mulococ Paladin. (Hsreplay.net tracks data from hundreds of thousands of games: https://hsreplay.net/decks/#sortBy=winrate)

    And Vicious Syndicate reports: "...the archetype that currently boasts the highest win rate in the game is not a Druid deck. Murloc Paladin, simply put, looks unbeatable right now." (https://www.vicioussyndicate.com/early-frontrunners-knights-frozen-throne/)

    Not remotely surprised as the deck farms  the ubiquitous Jade Druid. That deck is a whole other can of worms but it feels more fair and that can actually be alot more important than just WR in a casual game where the goal is fun at the end of the day. Seriously though, I think that if Blizz had a mind to rein in Murloc Paladin then all it would take would be setting Tidecaller's hp to 1 and maybe making warleader a 2/3 or 3/2. Deck would still probably even be t1. 
    My post was in response to OP's original comment, which specifically referred to the win rate of Druid decks and the fact that they are "unbeatable".
    To be clear, I am no fan of Jade decks. But I think the hate directed at Jade Druid is excessive, especially when there doesn't seem to be a single thread calling for balance adjustments to Murloc Paladin - even though it is in fact the more powerful deck, and has been for several seasons.
    Fairness and (even more so) "fun" are subjective matters. To me, having a swarm of fish that shout mrglgrl and pound your face in by turn five is no less fair or "unfun" to play against than hordes of green 10+/10+  statues that say grrrr into fatigue. 
    Regardless, if you are going to play ranked and you want to win - you either play the most powerful meta decks or you play decks that counter them. If your goal is strictly to have fun, then casual mode is always an option too (especially if you are not interested in winrate).
     M8. Tempostorm made the joke S Tier a reality just to shove every Druid in there.
    But I do agree with you when it comes to Murlocs, but at least most Murloc games are done quickly. They also hard counter my Priest deck. So I am sad.
    That's exactly what I'm talking about - the hate is excessive. There is no way that Malygos Druid is even remotely Tier 2, never mind "Tier S" as it is rated on TempoStorm.
    A lot of people are taking that seriously, even though it is clearly intended to be tongue-in-cheek.
     haha, I highly doubt anyone taking that tier seriously as in druid being unbeatable because clearly it's not. Pretty sure the purpose is to get attention in order to make blizzard address some valid issues with the druid class.
    There have been several posts here and elsewhere that have cited the TempoStorm S-tier as something to be taken seriously. See for example: http://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/general-discussion/201006-new-tempostorm-metasnapshot
    Basically what they want is innervate moved to hall of fame because of how mana is gained in hearthstone (linear unlike many other card games) and the value of it. This put blizzard in an awkward position since they can't really balance the cards for druid with an appropriate value due to the tempo swings and very unique combos innervate introduce as a mechanic. They have to gamble a bit and hope they aren't too far off and that the meta adjust for it (which makes the class either inferior or superior since it plays in it's own little league value wise).
    Every class has access to cards that allow them to cheat out mana. Counterfeit Coin, Sorcerer's Apprentice, Summoning Portal, Corpse Widow, Thing from Below, Primordial Glyph to name a few - plus neutrals like Dread Corsair, Burgly Bully and the Giants. It may be that Innervate is the best of these but that is part of Druid's identity. You could just as easily say that cheap spells put Rogue in a class of its own,  or armor gain for Warrior.
    Also what stats are you referring to? Most stats I've seen lately have put druid ahead of any other class stats wise rank 5 to legend. Paladin have higher win % between rank 20-10 if I recall (which is a vast majority of the playerbase) and only differ 1-2% on rank 5 to legend (which is the ranks you want to look at for balance issues). Now keep in mind that almost everyone that isn't playing druid is running decks that targeting druid, strongest contender being murloc paladin, so that the runner up deck would have close to or even higher win % isn't really that odd since you wont see ppl go "Oh let's tech against those pesky murlocs and forget about the jades for a minute!".

    Here again are the sources originally cited:

    Sixty percent of the top ten decks - including the top spot - at hsreplay.net are Mulococ Paladin. (Hsreplay.net tracks data from hundreds of thousands of games: https://hsreplay.net/decks/#sortBy=winrate)

    And Vicious Syndicate reports: "...the archetype that currently boasts the highest win rate in the game is not a Druid deck. Murloc Paladin, simply put, looks unbeatable right now." (https://www.vicioussyndicate.com/early-frontrunners-knights-frozen-throne/

     
    well your own source, https://www.vicioussyndicate.com/infographics/frontrunners-frozen-throne-infographic/ have both jade druid and aggro druid ranked before murloc pala when it comes to meta impact. Your own source also acknowledge that you can't take numbers like winratio out of context to determine the true value of a deck.
    Different sources will have different data but all seem to have druid as favorite. Here's another one btw. http://metastats.net/decks/winrate/
    And again, numbers can be very deceiving. Winratio is just one of many variables to determine how good something actually really is in this game.
    well your own source, https://www.vicioussyndicate.com/infographics/frontrunners-frozen-throne-infographic/ have both jade druid and aggro druid ranked before murloc pala when it comes to meta impact. Your own source also acknowledge that you can't take numbers like winratio out of context to determine the true value of a deck.
    Different sources will have different data but all seem to have druid as favorite. Here's another one btw. http://metastats.net/decks/winrate/
    And again, numbers can be very deceiving. Winratio is just one of many variables to determine how good something actually really is in this game.
     
    The comments from the original poster on page 1 were specifically addressing win rate, and claimed that Druid is "unbeatable". This is what my post was responding to:
    "This needs to be addressed by Blizzard because Druid is above a 62% winrate on hsreplay, the highest winrate a deck has ever had in this game"
    I'm not saying that Jade Druid and Aggro Token Druid are not Tier 1 decks, and I'm not saying that they are not impactful.
    My point is that several of the most reliable data-driven sources have reported Murloc Paladin to be more powerful. It is also a Tier 1 deck, and has been for several seasons now.  Personally I don't think either of them merits a balance adjustment, but in any case I don't see how one is OP and the other is not.
     Murloc Paladins have a counter. Ironically one of those counters is just Token Druid putting crabs back into their decks. Their other counters, such as Token Shaman or Control decks, are being eaten alive by Jade Druid. Murloc Paladin doesn't shut down an entire archetype by simply existing on the ladder. And I wonder if Murloc Paladin has their numbers skewed because they're favoured against Jade Druids while there are tons of Jade Druids out there. Jade Druid still has a good chance against decks that counter it but decks that Jade Druid counters get absolutely wrecked. 
    Jade Druid on the other hand have been given tools to which shores up their weaknesses and punishes their counters. Jade Druid has traditionally been weak against wide boards and big minions as well as the risk of having too much ramp leaving them with nothing in hand. 
    Now let's look at what tools they have now. Wide board? Spreading Plague. Ramping too fast? 5 card draw with UI (more consistent than the old draw engine of Auctioneer). Big minions? Well that's easy; now that they don't need to worry about synergy with Auctioneer, and only needs one card to draw, they can run tech cards for big minions. BGH? Silence? Even The Black Knight with how common Bonemares and the Lich King are. Want to drop big minions instead of buffing? Good luck with that when they have infinitely growing minions while 4 mana crystals ahead of you. 
     1.)
    Don't play a wide board
    2.) 
    Run Skulking geist.
    3.)
    Go face

    Seriously they just prey on slow decks.
     So in order to beat a deck that preys on slow decks you... run a slower deck? 
    Quote from booganzoth >>
    Quote from Grimlokus >>
    Quote from booganzoth >>
    Quote from bny >>
    Quote from booganzoth >>
    Quote from bny>>
    Quote from booganzoth>>
    Quote from LobsterEmperor>>
    Quote from booganzoth>>
    Quote from Harmonius>>
    Quote from booganzoth>>

    For those who are interested in looking at some data, you may be surprised to learn that the deck with the current highest win rate is...not Jade Druid.

    It is Murloc Paladin. 

    Sixty percent of the top ten decks - including the top spot - at hsreplay.net are Mulococ Paladin. (Hsreplay.net tracks data from hundreds of thousands of games: https://hsreplay.net/decks/#sortBy=winrate)

    And Vicious Syndicate reports: "...the archetype that currently boasts the highest win rate in the game is not a Druid deck. Murloc Paladin, simply put, looks unbeatable right now." (https://www.vicioussyndicate.com/early-frontrunners-knights-frozen-throne/)

    Not remotely surprised as the deck farms  the ubiquitous Jade Druid. That deck is a whole other can of worms but it feels more fair and that can actually be alot more important than just WR in a casual game where the goal is fun at the end of the day. Seriously though, I think that if Blizz had a mind to rein in Murloc Paladin then all it would take would be setting Tidecaller's hp to 1 and maybe making warleader a 2/3 or 3/2. Deck would still probably even be t1. 
    My post was in response to OP's original comment, which specifically referred to the win rate of Druid decks and the fact that they are "unbeatable".
    To be clear, I am no fan of Jade decks. But I think the hate directed at Jade Druid is excessive, especially when there doesn't seem to be a single thread calling for balance adjustments to Murloc Paladin - even though it is in fact the more powerful deck, and has been for several seasons.
    Fairness and (even more so) "fun" are subjective matters. To me, having a swarm of fish that shout mrglgrl and pound your face in by turn five is no less fair or "unfun" to play against than hordes of green 10+/10+  statues that say grrrr into fatigue. 
    Regardless, if you are going to play ranked and you want to win - you either play the most powerful meta decks or you play decks that counter them. If your goal is strictly to have fun, then casual mode is always an option too (especially if you are not interested in winrate).
     M8. Tempostorm made the joke S Tier a reality just to shove every Druid in there.
    But I do agree with you when it comes to Murlocs, but at least most Murloc games are done quickly. They also hard counter my Priest deck. So I am sad.
    That's exactly what I'm talking about - the hate is excessive. There is no way that Malygos Druid is even remotely Tier 2, never mind "Tier S" as it is rated on TempoStorm.
    A lot of people are taking that seriously, even though it is clearly intended to be tongue-in-cheek.
     haha, I highly doubt anyone taking that tier seriously as in druid being unbeatable because clearly it's not. Pretty sure the purpose is to get attention in order to make blizzard address some valid issues with the druid class.
    There have been several posts here and elsewhere that have cited the TempoStorm S-tier as something to be taken seriously. See for example: http://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/general-discussion/201006-new-tempostorm-metasnapshot
    Basically what they want is innervate moved to hall of fame because of how mana is gained in hearthstone (linear unlike many other card games) and the value of it. This put blizzard in an awkward position since they can't really balance the cards for druid with an appropriate value due to the tempo swings and very unique combos innervate introduce as a mechanic. They have to gamble a bit and hope they aren't too far off and that the meta adjust for it (which makes the class either inferior or superior since it plays in it's own little league value wise).
    Every class has access to cards that allow them to cheat out mana. Counterfeit Coin, Sorcerer's Apprentice, Summoning Portal, Corpse Widow, Thing from Below, Primordial Glyph to name a few - plus neutrals like Dread Corsair, Burgly Bully and the Giants. It may be that Innervate is the best of these but that is part of Druid's identity. You could just as easily say that cheap spells put Rogue in a class of its own,  or armor gain for Warrior.
    Also what stats are you referring to? Most stats I've seen lately have put druid ahead of any other class stats wise rank 5 to legend. Paladin have higher win % between rank 20-10 if I recall (which is a vast majority of the playerbase) and only differ 1-2% on rank 5 to legend (which is the ranks you want to look at for balance issues). Now keep in mind that almost everyone that isn't playing druid is running decks that targeting druid, strongest contender being murloc paladin, so that the runner up deck would have close to or even higher win % isn't really that odd since you wont see ppl go "Oh let's tech against those pesky murlocs and forget about the jades for a minute!".

    Here again are the sources originally cited:

    Sixty percent of the top ten decks - including the top spot - at hsreplay.net are Mulococ Paladin. (Hsreplay.net tracks data from hundreds of thousands of games: https://hsreplay.net/decks/#sortBy=winrate)

    And Vicious Syndicate reports: "...the archetype that currently boasts the highest win rate in the game is not a Druid deck. Murloc Paladin, simply put, looks unbeatable right now." (https://www.vicioussyndicate.com/early-frontrunners-knights-frozen-throne/

     
    well your own source, https://www.vicioussyndicate.com/infographics/frontrunners-frozen-throne-infographic/ have both jade druid and aggro druid ranked before murloc pala when it comes to meta impact. Your own source also acknowledge that you can't take numbers like winratio out of context to determine the true value of a deck.
    Different sources will have different data but all seem to have druid as favorite. Here's another one btw. http://metastats.net/decks/winrate/
    And again, numbers can be very deceiving. Winratio is just one of many variables to determine how good something actually really is in this game.
    well your own source, https://www.vicioussyndicate.com/infographics/frontrunners-frozen-throne-infographic/ have both jade druid and aggro druid ranked before murloc pala when it comes to meta impact. Your own source also acknowledge that you can't take numbers like winratio out of context to determine the true value of a deck.
    Different sources will have different data but all seem to have druid as favorite. Here's another one btw. http://metastats.net/decks/winrate/
    And again, numbers can be very deceiving. Winratio is just one of many variables to determine how good something actually really is in this game.
     
    The comments from the original poster on page 1 were specifically addressing win rate, and claimed that Druid is "unbeatable". This is what my post was responding to:
    "This needs to be addressed by Blizzard because Druid is above a 62% winrate on hsreplay, the highest winrate a deck has ever had in this game"
    I'm not saying that Jade Druid and Aggro Token Druid are not Tier 1 decks, and I'm not saying that they are not impactful.
    My point is that several of the most reliable data-driven sources have reported Murloc Paladin to be more powerful. It is also a Tier 1 deck, and has been for several seasons now.  Personally I don't think either of them merits a balance adjustment, but in any case I don't see how one is OP and the other is not.
    Murloc Paladins have a counter. Ironically one of those counters is just Token Druid putting crabs back into their decks. Their other counters, such as Token Shaman or Control decks, are being eaten alive by Jade Druid. Murloc Paladin doesn't shut down an entire archetype by simply existing on the ladder. And I wonder if Murloc Paladin has their numbers skewed because they're favoured against Jade Druids while there are tons of Jade Druids out there. Jade Druid still has a good chance against decks that counter it but decks that Jade Druid counters get absolutely wrecked. 
    Jade Druid on the other hand have been given tools to which shores up their weaknesses and punishes their counters. Jade Druid has traditionally been weak against wide boards and big minions as well as the risk of having too much ramp leaving them with nothing in hand. 
    Now let's look at what tools they have now. Wide board? Spreading Plague. Ramping too fast? 5 card draw with UI (more consistent than the old draw engine of Auctioneer). Big minions? Well that's easy; now that they don't need to worry about synergy with Auctioneer, and only needs one card to draw, they can run tech cards for big minions. BGH? Silence? Even The Black Knight with how common Bonemares and the Lich King are. Want to drop big minions instead of buffing? Good luck with that when they have infinitely growing minions while 4 mana crystals ahead of you. 
     

    Are you saying that Jade Druid has shut down an entire archetype by simply existing on the ladder? Which one? Of the two you mentioned, Control (Priest?) is stronger than it has been for quite a while. Evolve Token Shaman may not be the powerhouse it was mid- to late-Un'goro, but it would be a stretch to say it is “shut down”.

    And let's remember that Evolve Token Shaman did not even really become a force until several months after Un'goro was released. The reason it did so well in the first place is because innovative players found a way to make it work, while others were calling for nerfs to cards they didn’t like.

    The Hearthstone meta is like an ecosystem - certain decks have their moment in the sun and then fade when others overtake them. This happens in one of two ways: rapidly when new expansions or balance adjustments are released, and more gradually as some players figure out ways to exploit new niches. Inevitably the most successful decks are imitated and the cycle continues.

    There is no question that Jade Druid is the most commonly encountered deck in ranked at the moment - somewhere around 16% overall. And yes that gets annoying. But the title of this thread is “Druid is virtually unbeatable”, and people are confusing frequency with winrate.

    As of today, the most “unbeatable” archetype recorded by Vicious Syndicate’s live data is...Pirate Warrior (55%). Second place is shared by three decks: Murloc Paladin, Aggro Token Druid and Jade Druid which are each tied at 54%.

    Like it or not, the nature of the game is that there are always going a handful of archetypes that become temporarily dominant. And there is more than one way to respond:

    One is to post on the forums and call for balance adjustments to cards you don’t like. If enough people complain and blame the developers, eventually they will listen. But guess what? Balance adjustments inevitably lead to new niches to exploit, and then what? Let’s remember that the recent re-emergence of Jade Druid happened precisely once the nerf to Crystal Rogue was released. How many people griping about Jade Druid now were calling for a nerf to The Caverns Below three months ago?

    Another approach is to experiment and try to find new ways to make archetypes you most enjoy become viable, or to discover new archetypes altogether.

    Which is more fun?

    For the record, I am no fan of Jade. I don’t even have Aya Blackpaw in my collection.

     The only competitive Control deck is Highlander Priest, if you can even consider it a Control deck. 
    You can't compare it to Un'goro because that was the beginning of a new rotation. We had to make new decks because it killed most of the old ones. 
    Are you trying to say Jade Druid is a problem because Quest Rogue got nerfed? Even when it got nerfed Jade Druid didn't completely take over the ladder. It was strong but nowhere near as polarizing as it is now. Jade Druid was fine before KFT came and gave them answers to all their problems. 
    People love to cite Pirate Warrior, Murloc Pally, and Aggro Druid (even though it's part of the druid problem) as being just as bad or winning just as much but they seem to forget that those decks are the only ones favourable against Jade Druid without dying to everything else. PW was weakening in the meta before KFT yet they now have the highest win rate? Even though they got nothing from the expansion? Have you considered these decks have such a high win rate BECAUSE Jade Druid is widespread rather than DESPITE it? 
    Posted in: General Discussion
  • 2

    posted a message on Druid is virtually unbeatable and this needs to be changed fast
    Quote from booganzoth >>
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    For those who are interested in looking at some data, you may be surprised to learn that the deck with the current highest win rate is...not Jade Druid.

    It is Murloc Paladin. 

    Sixty percent of the top ten decks - including the top spot - at hsreplay.net are Mulococ Paladin. (Hsreplay.net tracks data from hundreds of thousands of games: https://hsreplay.net/decks/#sortBy=winrate)

    And Vicious Syndicate reports: "...the archetype that currently boasts the highest win rate in the game is not a Druid deck. Murloc Paladin, simply put, looks unbeatable right now." (https://www.vicioussyndicate.com/early-frontrunners-knights-frozen-throne/)

    Not remotely surprised as the deck farms  the ubiquitous Jade Druid. That deck is a whole other can of worms but it feels more fair and that can actually be alot more important than just WR in a casual game where the goal is fun at the end of the day. Seriously though, I think that if Blizz had a mind to rein in Murloc Paladin then all it would take would be setting Tidecaller's hp to 1 and maybe making warleader a 2/3 or 3/2. Deck would still probably even be t1. 
    My post was in response to OP's original comment, which specifically referred to the win rate of Druid decks and the fact that they are "unbeatable".
    To be clear, I am no fan of Jade decks. But I think the hate directed at Jade Druid is excessive, especially when there doesn't seem to be a single thread calling for balance adjustments to Murloc Paladin - even though it is in fact the more powerful deck, and has been for several seasons.
    Fairness and (even more so) "fun" are subjective matters. To me, having a swarm of fish that shout mrglgrl and pound your face in by turn five is no less fair or "unfun" to play against than hordes of green 10+/10+  statues that say grrrr into fatigue. 
    Regardless, if you are going to play ranked and you want to win - you either play the most powerful meta decks or you play decks that counter them. If your goal is strictly to have fun, then casual mode is always an option too (especially if you are not interested in winrate).
     M8. Tempostorm made the joke S Tier a reality just to shove every Druid in there.
    But I do agree with you when it comes to Murlocs, but at least most Murloc games are done quickly. They also hard counter my Priest deck. So I am sad.
    That's exactly what I'm talking about - the hate is excessive. There is no way that Malygos Druid is even remotely Tier 2, never mind "Tier S" as it is rated on TempoStorm.
    A lot of people are taking that seriously, even though it is clearly intended to be tongue-in-cheek.
     haha, I highly doubt anyone taking that tier seriously as in druid being unbeatable because clearly it's not. Pretty sure the purpose is to get attention in order to make blizzard address some valid issues with the druid class.
    There have been several posts here and elsewhere that have cited the TempoStorm S-tier as something to be taken seriously. See for example: http://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/general-discussion/201006-new-tempostorm-metasnapshot
    Basically what they want is innervate moved to hall of fame because of how mana is gained in hearthstone (linear unlike many other card games) and the value of it. This put blizzard in an awkward position since they can't really balance the cards for druid with an appropriate value due to the tempo swings and very unique combos innervate introduce as a mechanic. They have to gamble a bit and hope they aren't too far off and that the meta adjust for it (which makes the class either inferior or superior since it plays in it's own little league value wise).
    Every class has access to cards that allow them to cheat out mana. Counterfeit Coin, Sorcerer's Apprentice, Summoning Portal, Corpse Widow, Thing from Below, Primordial Glyph to name a few - plus neutrals like Dread Corsair, Burgly Bully and the Giants. It may be that Innervate is the best of these but that is part of Druid's identity. You could just as easily say that cheap spells put Rogue in a class of its own,  or armor gain for Warrior.
    Also what stats are you referring to? Most stats I've seen lately have put druid ahead of any other class stats wise rank 5 to legend. Paladin have higher win % between rank 20-10 if I recall (which is a vast majority of the playerbase) and only differ 1-2% on rank 5 to legend (which is the ranks you want to look at for balance issues). Now keep in mind that almost everyone that isn't playing druid is running decks that targeting druid, strongest contender being murloc paladin, so that the runner up deck would have close to or even higher win % isn't really that odd since you wont see ppl go "Oh let's tech against those pesky murlocs and forget about the jades for a minute!".

    Here again are the sources originally cited:

    Sixty percent of the top ten decks - including the top spot - at hsreplay.net are Mulococ Paladin. (Hsreplay.net tracks data from hundreds of thousands of games: https://hsreplay.net/decks/#sortBy=winrate)

    And Vicious Syndicate reports: "...the archetype that currently boasts the highest win rate in the game is not a Druid deck. Murloc Paladin, simply put, looks unbeatable right now." (https://www.vicioussyndicate.com/early-frontrunners-knights-frozen-throne/

     
    well your own source, https://www.vicioussyndicate.com/infographics/frontrunners-frozen-throne-infographic/ have both jade druid and aggro druid ranked before murloc pala when it comes to meta impact. Your own source also acknowledge that you can't take numbers like winratio out of context to determine the true value of a deck.
    Different sources will have different data but all seem to have druid as favorite. Here's another one btw. http://metastats.net/decks/winrate/
    And again, numbers can be very deceiving. Winratio is just one of many variables to determine how good something actually really is in this game.
    well your own source, https://www.vicioussyndicate.com/infographics/frontrunners-frozen-throne-infographic/ have both jade druid and aggro druid ranked before murloc pala when it comes to meta impact. Your own source also acknowledge that you can't take numbers like winratio out of context to determine the true value of a deck.
    Different sources will have different data but all seem to have druid as favorite. Here's another one btw. http://metastats.net/decks/winrate/
    And again, numbers can be very deceiving. Winratio is just one of many variables to determine how good something actually really is in this game.
     
    The comments from the original poster on page 1 were specifically addressing win rate, and claimed that Druid is "unbeatable". This is what my post was responding to:
    "This needs to be addressed by Blizzard because Druid is above a 62% winrate on hsreplay, the highest winrate a deck has ever had in this game"
    I'm not saying that Jade Druid and Aggro Token Druid are not Tier 1 decks, and I'm not saying that they are not impactful.
    My point is that several of the most reliable data-driven sources have reported Murloc Paladin to be more powerful. It is also a Tier 1 deck, and has been for several seasons now.  Personally I don't think either of them merits a balance adjustment, but in any case I don't see how one is OP and the other is not.
     Murloc Paladins have a counter. Ironically one of those counters is just Token Druid putting crabs back into their decks. Their other counters, such as Token Shaman or Control decks, are being eaten alive by Jade Druid. Murloc Paladin doesn't shut down an entire archetype by simply existing on the ladder. And I wonder if Murloc Paladin has their numbers skewed because they're favoured against Jade Druids while there are tons of Jade Druids out there. Jade Druid still has a good chance against decks that counter it but decks that Jade Druid counters get absolutely wrecked. 
    Jade Druid on the other hand have been given tools to which shores up their weaknesses and punishes their counters. Jade Druid has traditionally been weak against wide boards and big minions as well as the risk of having too much ramp leaving them with nothing in hand. 
    Now let's look at what tools they have now. Wide board? Spreading Plague. Ramping too fast? 5 card draw with UI (more consistent than the old draw engine of Auctioneer). Big minions? Well that's easy; now that they don't need to worry about synergy with Auctioneer, and only needs one card to draw, they can run tech cards for big minions. BGH? Silence? Even The Black Knight with how common Bonemares and the Lich King are. Want to drop big minions instead of buffing? Good luck with that when they have infinitely growing minions while 4 mana crystals ahead of you. 
    Posted in: General Discussion
  • 0

    posted a message on New Shaman Card Revealed: Brrrloc
    Quote from Weikor >>
    Quote from doyouevensalt >>

    Why does it have to be a Murloc? Murloc shaman doesn't see any play. And am I correct when I say because it's a Murloc it has 1 stat point less, lets say 1 attack or 1 health? Lame

     
    Quote from doyouevensalt >>

    Why does it have to be a Murloc? Murloc shaman doesn't see any play. And am I correct when I say because it's a Murloc it has 1 stat point less, lets say 1 attack or 1 health? Lame

     no, the effect itself is why it has less stats. Other released murlocs have normal stats, and also the secret guy from paladin
     But that can't be right because there's Glacial Shard that does the same with with 1/2/1 stats. In that case the effect clearly had no bearing on the stats. Keep in mind this Brrrloc is a class card too which usually means they get better stat-lines. 
    Posted in: News
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