The reason why a card like this is OP when Varian isn't is simple; the card you've put forward is a huge board presence AND messes up your opponent's board pretty hard, which is an extremely rare combination of traits for any one card to have. Varian is so hard to play because he's only really good on an empty board, and has a pretty good chance of getting you killed if you don't whip out a taunt. And even then, your opponent has initiative on how to deal with whatever he brings out. By contrast, the weakest version of the card you've put forward A) is a big board presence B) does enough damage to knock out a minion C) freezes it so that you can control how you deal with that minion even if it doesn't die and D) freezes and possibly even clears a board under an arbitrary "I'm losing so I win the game instead" condition.
You've got three options for balanced variants of the battlecry: just a big damage battlecry (6 to one target is heaps - that's a Fireball well below mana cost!), only doing lower damage to all enemies (probably 2 - that's a free Consecration) or freezing all enemy characters. If you wanted to keep multiple effects, you'd have to kill the hell out of its stats (we're talking something like 5/5 or 6/6) to make it not have absurd value. The only reason that the versions you've posted wouldn't be must-plays is that some decks just aren't capable of using a 10-mana minion.
Mysterious Challenger is a bit of a different situation to Warsong Commander because a new anti-Secret card release could slap it in the nads. Release a neutral low or midcost minion with the effect of Flare and bam, there goes the winrate.
You know, one of the interesting things about Hearthstone is that, despite being entirely digital and involving no trading between players, it actually takes way longer for problem cards to be nerfed than it takes for problem cards in physical games to be restricted or banned. You'd think it'd happen much more quickly than that. I might go as far as saying that the hands-off approach to the meta is strange.
The whole Undertaker situation had an appalling timeframe. Not sure why they thought that'd sort itself out.
Can you react to Direct Damage during your opponents turn?, Can you avoid triggering a secret?, Can you avoid a Priest being healed when you almost get it down?
Everything is Terrible, but most terrible thing is the lack of imagination and effort.
Crying looks to me the preferred game mechanic.
Let's see what you're going to ask for a nerf tomorrow,,,,,,,,,,Hunter must be up again, Aint him?
Direct damage (while not great for the game) is a bit more predictable and not as restrictive to play around or prepare for. And with something like Fireball, 6 damage for 4 mana really isn't a lot by itself. Secrets are phenomenally easy to deal with compared to analogues in other games, and when you know that they're there, half of the time you can guess which secret it is thanks to the meta. Not even sure where you're going with the priest example. You might as well be saying "can you avoid your opponent playing any card?".
Imagination and effort are weird points to make in regards to Patron. There's nothing imaginative about everyone and their mother looking up a decklist and then using it, and the "effort" is a joke. For all the talk about Patron being hard to play, I've never met any halfway respectable who couldn't play the deck properly after fiddling around with it a bit. Doing the maths to work out if you have lethal with a calculation more complex than 6+6=12 does not make it challenging.
Remember when people where defending this card at TGT release and how it doesnt matter at all that they dont buff basic cards ever?
Well now you got it. Here is the result of blizzards "we dont give a fuck" attitude against buffs and nerfs of cards. Hope you enjoy the crappy version of Warsong Commander, since you are now stuck with it until the end of eternity because they will never ever buff shitty cards, ever.
But maybe they rerelease the card in a future set.
It's important not to forget that releasing a stronger version of an existing card is actually different to buffing the old version, because it means that you can use the two cards together for a total of 4 copies. The same thing applies to releasing a crappier version of an existing card - it may still be desirable because it effectively allows the player to use more copies.
It's farfetched in the case of Heckler, but if Taunt minions with 5 attack and 4 health suddenly became extremely desirable because of some kind of interaction, then the end results of buffing the old card and releasing a new one become different.
i mean.. at least make the new Warsong Commander 2 Mana so it would see Arena play.
Actually, at 2 mana she could even see a ranked play. I mean a 2/3 with an upside for 2 is kind of average minion, and you can play her t2, then t3 Southsea Deckhand and win axe, the deckhand will then get +1 attack and become a Wolfrider for 1 and weapon. Heh.
If they made her 2 mana i would be cool with the nerf. It may destroy Patron, but it will help to bring Aggro Warrior into ladder with a strong (really not OP) card
I think that they deliberately wanted to downplay Charge as a mechanic, so they weren't interested in giving Warriors a tool that made Charge stronger. That makes sense to me - I don't want to trade playing against Charge nonsense for playing against other Charge nonsense, even if it's not as prohibitive as Patron.
Charge is a terrible mechanic in a game where you can't interact during your opponent's turn. That sort of thing works in other games because of instants and traps, and secrets don't even come close to replicating that. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if they majorly cut back on Charge as a whole in the future. It's not the first time a nerf like this happened either - I do hope that people remember the Charge (the card with the same name) nerf.
That said, the effect should probably have been changed to Battlecry: Give a minion Charge. That's about 2 mana for the warm body and 1 mana for the charge, which is in-line with what Charge is worth when you have to drop 3 mana all at once to do it.
Best thing that's happened to this game in a long time!! Delighted.
That surely tells something about the game, if deleting the most skill intensive deck was the best thing in a long time
I remember when i was playing miracle and it got nerfed....the throne was taken by Undertaker decks, now the same thing will happen but with secret paladin
So yeah, best thing in a long time for sure
Do people seriously think that playing Patron properly requires being Rain Man?
It just seems too unreliable, and I can't help but feel that warriors can do something better with 6 mana, or just use the card slot in a much better way. It'd be more desirable if the effect was treated as a negative rather than a positive (which, given its unpredictability, it could be) and offset the cost. It's also not helped by the fact that the damage will often occur at the start of your own turn, which is the worst time; too soon to load up the board with cards that would benefit from it or play Warsong Commander, but too late to avoid summoning sickness for patrons.
In other words, if it cost 5 instead of 6, it'd immediately be way more appealing. Flame Leviathan 2.0.
I'm loving all of the "I can't netdeck to win, abloobloobloo" tears. Yeah, there's a strong element of chance, but it's definitely not a brainless slog, and I'd argue that a smart play involves a much higher amount of involvement and forethought in this kind of unpredictable environment than it does in normal play or most other brawls.
0
The reason why a card like this is OP when Varian isn't is simple; the card you've put forward is a huge board presence AND messes up your opponent's board pretty hard, which is an extremely rare combination of traits for any one card to have. Varian is so hard to play because he's only really good on an empty board, and has a pretty good chance of getting you killed if you don't whip out a taunt. And even then, your opponent has initiative on how to deal with whatever he brings out. By contrast, the weakest version of the card you've put forward A) is a big board presence B) does enough damage to knock out a minion C) freezes it so that you can control how you deal with that minion even if it doesn't die and D) freezes and possibly even clears a board under an arbitrary "I'm losing so I win the game instead" condition.
You've got three options for balanced variants of the battlecry: just a big damage battlecry (6 to one target is heaps - that's a Fireball well below mana cost!), only doing lower damage to all enemies (probably 2 - that's a free Consecration) or freezing all enemy characters. If you wanted to keep multiple effects, you'd have to kill the hell out of its stats (we're talking something like 5/5 or 6/6) to make it not have absurd value. The only reason that the versions you've posted wouldn't be must-plays is that some decks just aren't capable of using a 10-mana minion.
1
Mysterious Challenger is a bit of a different situation to Warsong Commander because a new anti-Secret card release could slap it in the nads. Release a neutral low or midcost minion with the effect of Flare and bam, there goes the winrate.
1
You know, one of the interesting things about Hearthstone is that, despite being entirely digital and involving no trading between players, it actually takes way longer for problem cards to be nerfed than it takes for problem cards in physical games to be restricted or banned. You'd think it'd happen much more quickly than that. I might go as far as saying that the hands-off approach to the meta is strange.
The whole Undertaker situation had an appalling timeframe. Not sure why they thought that'd sort itself out.
0
Direct damage (while not great for the game) is a bit more predictable and not as restrictive to play around or prepare for. And with something like Fireball, 6 damage for 4 mana really isn't a lot by itself. Secrets are phenomenally easy to deal with compared to analogues in other games, and when you know that they're there, half of the time you can guess which secret it is thanks to the meta. Not even sure where you're going with the priest example. You might as well be saying "can you avoid your opponent playing any card?".
Imagination and effort are weird points to make in regards to Patron. There's nothing imaginative about everyone and their mother looking up a decklist and then using it, and the "effort" is a joke. For all the talk about Patron being hard to play, I've never met any halfway respectable who couldn't play the deck properly after fiddling around with it a bit. Doing the maths to work out if you have lethal with a calculation more complex than 6+6=12 does not make it challenging.
1
It's important not to forget that releasing a stronger version of an existing card is actually different to buffing the old version, because it means that you can use the two cards together for a total of 4 copies. The same thing applies to releasing a crappier version of an existing card - it may still be desirable because it effectively allows the player to use more copies.
It's farfetched in the case of Heckler, but if Taunt minions with 5 attack and 4 health suddenly became extremely desirable because of some kind of interaction, then the end results of buffing the old card and releasing a new one become different.
0
I think that they deliberately wanted to downplay Charge as a mechanic, so they weren't interested in giving Warriors a tool that made Charge stronger. That makes sense to me - I don't want to trade playing against Charge nonsense for playing against other Charge nonsense, even if it's not as prohibitive as Patron.
0
Charge is a terrible mechanic in a game where you can't interact during your opponent's turn. That sort of thing works in other games because of instants and traps, and secrets don't even come close to replicating that. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if they majorly cut back on Charge as a whole in the future. It's not the first time a nerf like this happened either - I do hope that people remember the Charge (the card with the same name) nerf.
That said, the effect should probably have been changed to Battlecry: Give a minion Charge. That's about 2 mana for the warm body and 1 mana for the charge, which is in-line with what Charge is worth when you have to drop 3 mana all at once to do it.
0
Do people seriously think that playing Patron properly requires being Rain Man?
0
Flame Leviathan was a War Golem with an effect, and we all know how that turned out.
Unless Warriors fall into a position where they'd be using Boulderfist Ogre without an effect, then this thing isn't particularly appealing.
2
It just seems too unreliable, and I can't help but feel that warriors can do something better with 6 mana, or just use the card slot in a much better way. It'd be more desirable if the effect was treated as a negative rather than a positive (which, given its unpredictability, it could be) and offset the cost. It's also not helped by the fact that the damage will often occur at the start of your own turn, which is the worst time; too soon to load up the board with cards that would benefit from it or play Warsong Commander, but too late to avoid summoning sickness for patrons.
In other words, if it cost 5 instead of 6, it'd immediately be way more appealing. Flame Leviathan 2.0.
2
I'm loving all of the "I can't netdeck to win, abloobloobloo" tears. Yeah, there's a strong element of chance, but it's definitely not a brainless slog, and I'd argue that a smart play involves a much higher amount of involvement and forethought in this kind of unpredictable environment than it does in normal play or most other brawls.