Hearthpwn

While I find the charge addition...questionable here, that's really not the part that people should probably focus on, as him being able to be a 4 mana 3 damage "spell" that can hit face is nothing special. It's not like frost bolt has existed for years or anything. Given how no other card seems to be getting charge either means that he can't really propel any major burst damage with no board set up. What this really is is a card that denies protection. It prevents taunting as a way to protect from lethal, and really encourages board control and pressure.

Honestly I think the card would be almost just as strong if it didn't have charge, and was just the ability. I'm surprised it's so on curve with it's stats though, given how bonkers that ability truly is. Just remember though guys, low attack charge minions rarely ever saw that much play, so it's not the charge that's pushing this guy to be the powerhouse he is.

Also all this is assuming demon hunter doesn't get more charge/attack boosting/duplicating/something else methods to really create some high burst damage to face. 3 damage on 4 mana is fine. If he gets more though, then yeah, they didn't learn from leeroy.

Can't call it meta defining simply due to how slow it is, but it is an excellent tool for any slower mage decks. It's going to be a staple card for singleton mage, as well as any control mage, but I doubt they are going to be the decks that define this meta. Still, card in a vacuum is scary strong and will push those decks hard. Arguably the strongest prime we've seen so far.

Ok, this guy is terrifying. A solid on curve body at the start with a stat line you'd want, but his prime version is disgustingly scary. 5 random mage spells with +1 damage, that will always hit an enemy if it can? Puzzle box has nothing on this. Mage only has (last I checked) non targetting 1 sided benefit spells (so secrets, draw, etc. Don't affect the opponents things, just yours), or damage spells, which can't back fire here. Only card you don't really want to hit will probably be puzzle box and conjurers calling. But this card, while "random", is targeted more than well enough that it's not really random. Just a question of how impactful he will be when played. This one can't really backfire.

Will this be enough? Probably due to blackjack stunner being so good, but it will always be a headache to see this guy in the mid game. Being able to splash out a number of secrets, that are actually now secret (so many options, who knows what could be hit), that it creates some powerful mind games. Secrets can't really win you a game by themselves, but rogue is in a good spot, and this guy doesn't need many slots to be good. Will see plenty of play, especially early.

Sounds to me like we do. The only difference here is we have cards in the basic set getting rotated out (I.E. cards that you literally cannot get from a pack). Something I don't think we've ever seen before, though correct me if I am wrong. So those cards (cleric and DS) I think will just cease to exist any more. But all the other cards with actual rarities seem to behave like any other HoF rotation

Quote from ShadowAldrius >>

I'm banking my money being shadowform being the epic we lose, as it's again a playstyle they don't really like, kind of goes against priest theme, and takes up a valuable slot. The new AOE is much better for that position. The basic cards will probably be divine spirit (legitimately surprised this is the hit though, and not inner fire. But no new common cards, so I think it's a safe bet that it survives the rotation)

Is this the whole thing do you guys think? I think Shadow Form is more useful than Mind Games, but not by much.

And honestly Divine Spirit is a way bigger problem than Inner Fire. Without Divine Spirit, Inner Fire is likely at most a highly situational +10 attack for 1 mana. Not that good. Inner Fire is also a potential win condition (which priest doesn't have too many of with these changes) while Divine Spirit is kind of a cheat card.

I think they'd cut Holy Fire before they'd cut Mass Dispel. Mass Dispel is an AMAZING tech card that has seen lots of play, while Holy Fire doesn't fit what they want for the priest identity.

 Not so much about what is useful in terms of shadow form vs mind games, since they both see about as much play as the other, but rather theme and play style. The proposed changes show a clear move towards "steal" priest, and less away from face damage priest. 

In terms of divine spirit, yeah, that's probably right I guess inner fire is "fine", though Amet sure does make it a scary card still.

And as I said, I was not confident on any of the rares. I agree it'll probably be holy fire before mass dispel, but we'll have to see.

Token strategy pretty much. Though really he's the hero propping up beasts the best right now, as he can essentially skip the pack leader phase to make them good. Beasts token recursion can be pretty bonkers, and deathwing makes it powerful out of the box. So Baronbeasts, mamabeasts, hyenabeasts are all very viable with deathwing. 

However, he's also pretty scary with mechs. Being able to attach token generation to any mech you want, a number of them having their own inbuilt generation, and plenty of divine shield to boot as well makes the already strong mech strat excellent for him. The fact that both mechs and beasts also have access to cleave really helps deathwing as well.

So really, his end game is to try and slip into either main strategy and just keep playing to strengths (tokens, or divine shields).

Quote from rabii99 >>

Calling it right now, Northshire Cleric and Divine Spirit are going to the HOF, plus either mindgames or shadowform.

 I would be astounded if cleric got HoF'd, because that's been part of a playstyle the dev team has leaned in to. Their reasoning for Velen going away was he was part of a playstyle they had no intention of helping. Assuming they're doing rarity swap for same rarity, we need to lose a legendary (we know Velen is going), an epic, 2 rares, and 2 base set cards. 

I'm banking my money being shadowform being the epic we lose, as it's again a playstyle they don't really like, kind of goes against priest theme, and takes up a valuable slot. The new AOE is much better for that position. The basic cards will probably be divine spirit (legitimately surprised this is the hit though, and not inner fire. But no new common cards, so I think it's a safe bet that it survives the rotation), and probably mind control. A card just far too swingy for it's own good. It's so expensive that it can't be run, but if a meta ever becomes too slow, it ends up becoming a dominant issue. As for the rares...erm, lightwell I guess, as it does something that is far too unreliable and low impact, and priest can do it already so consistently that it's just taking up a slot. The other rare though...I am not confident in making a call. I guess holy fire or mass dispel, but I again am unsure. Neither have been especially useful for the class though.

Aggro? Really? I saw it all and it seemed far closer to control. Taunts that whirlwind every time you're attacked, a batterhead, few aoe spells, some with life steal, and while they have spells that flood the board with 1/1 rushes, they feel designed to trade thanks to wrathscale and feast. I think ultimately they have tools for all playstyles, and it seems like they're going for a more generalist, midrage style hero here. Versatile, but not perhaps overbearing in any one way. 

However, we will see wrathscale and feast along with command and coordinated. Since those flood cards are strong by themselves, and given the effective combos avaliable to them, that will scary.

Quote from Th3D1rtSt4R >>

All you people bitching about these nerfs are being dramatic as hell.

These changes are significant enough to allow other decks to start closing the WR gaps but still allow the deck to continue to be a player in the meta. The WR of Shaman has already gone down significantly since they announced they were making adjustments and it is going to go down even further and bring it more in line with other decks without snuffing it out of the meta completely.

There is no world in which these win rates stay as is with these minor changes, and is most certainly is not going up. That only leaves on direction for it to go... can you guess it?

If you don't think 5 and up to 6 mana is enough of a change, then you clearly have not played that much of the Shaman deck. Many games you are casting it at 5 because you need to do it again on turn 6 or you fall behind. Now it just completely removed your ability to do it on turn 5 which means your turn 6 is not going to turn as tight of a corner.

Get a grip on yourselves.

 Ah man, I've seen you around in a few of these threads, and have always seen it as a bit of fresh air. 

I think people were wanting to see it obliterated from the meta entirely, due to just how ubiquitous it became for the first week. A sentiment I can understand, but not share. New decks had already started to arise that could handle it (dragon mage was the first, aggro hunter turned up, and now we have death rattle rogue as well), but the damage was done in peoples mind. They wanted it dead.

These nerfs were close to what I had expected to arise, but a bit different. I don't think anyone saw sludge slurper getting a hammer hit to the head, but the rest were close to what I was expecting. I called the 6 mana hit to elementalist (crafted 2 golden in preparation), a hit to faceless corrupter (though everyone and their grandmother saw this coming. I was expecting it to be made a 6 mana 5/3, though honestly I think this nerf might a more subtle, but more damaging nerf. 5 attack in this meta is actually super relevant due to shield of galakrond, who now can trade with a corrupter, as well as a few other 5 health cards), and wasn't expecting dragons pack to be hit, even if it could have been justified. I actually expected the quest to take a slight knock, but I guess the slurper hit kinda was that. 

What we have now is a situaiton where faster decks can now control the earlier board easier, and are less likely to be slapped down on turn 5 by elementalist or dragons pack. This will be enough to let the meta shift. Shaman is still going to be good guys, but I would be shocked if we still live in the meta of 50% shaman soon. I'm now looking forward to seeing what other whacky decks rise up now. Who knew whisp could be meta relevant again?

Honestly there weren't enough positions on the poll. I don't think we should ever give up dust refunds. We already don't own what we have paid for. At the very least having the non-refund "refund" of getting dust is a way of it not feeling like a kick in the teeth when cards we like are damaged. 

However, I also do believe there should be more than 1 or 2 balance tweaks every set, so I'm not in the camp of everything is perfectly fine, nor things need a drastic shift. I think they're on the right track, but we're not there yet. The news of the shaman nerfs (and probably faceless corruptor) is good, but I'd rather them play soft ball with it, and if it turns out it's not enough, give it another tweak one or two weeks later. I don't want it being a complete obliteration of the deck so they don't need to ever come back to it.

Quote from Shaniss >>

Is it most powerful ? Nah dont think so.

There were much more obscure,cancerful decks like razakus priest gadgetzan pirate warrior,jade druid,huntertaker (not played against this one).patron warrior  was absurdly powerful as well.

Yes,galakrond shaman needs nerf and balancing,thats for sure,but their early game is not most stuninng thing.

Yet,for current meta,yes is too op.

 Oh man, I remember huntertaker. Those were the days. While that deck now days would possibly be ok, in the context of naxramas, oh man that deck was practically unstoppable.

As for shaman right now, it is beatable. Singleton mage has a really solid win rate against it, as well as if pirate warrior gets decent tempo, can steal wins quite nicely now too. However, it is still one of the most consistently good decks around at the moment. So it getting hit a bit is fair. But no, this isn't even close to being the most powerful deck of all time.

Quote from Zaywop >>

Quote from Crawver >>

Quote from Zaywop >>

Will need someone to explain to me how non quest is better.

well the non quest version runs more card draw which is really important on the other hand, quest version runs out of cards really fast. other than that they run that 3/3 legendary that trigger next spell twice which can lead to 4 5/6 minions with taunt at turn 8 or 2 cards drawn with far sight and non quest is simply faster than quest version and that's a big deal since tempo is super important and most games gets decieded by who is the first that plays galk/ shudderwok. and every turn you have 2 extra mana.

 

Erm...what? How on earth does quest shaman run out of cards? It has a far more powerful, far more efficient draw engine. Being able to run questing explorer, novice, and big ol whelp for draw, as well as double up on any late game lackies for some really insane value generation. Also, since quest shaman gets to run MCT, using electra to double up on dragons pack has led me to just spend 5 to steal two of theirs, and then use my own left over mana to just out tempo them. The only good draw trick non quest has is the ability to use far sight with her to draw two, and get a discount. But given how it is still running low cost cards, that can end up not having the greatest payoff either. Which is one of my main issues with non quest galakrond. Just how reliant it is on good rng with cards like far sight and mutate.

Also the idea that it's whoever plays galk first wins, is absolutely wrong. I will purposefully wait until after they play theirs in a grinder game, and blow them out with the counter. Turns out having 2 8/8s that can't hit face that turn have a habit of losing to 4 that can trade. And as for shudderwock value, quest again will just have the better shudderwock typically. More draw effects, more generation effects. More battlecries in general, and sometimes even the 1-2 aoe damage from sandstorms really help control a late game board if tempo is needed.

Just saying that non quest has 2 more mana is somewhat asinine, as it's implying it's 2 mana wasted, when in reality it is often the most valued 2 mana every turn for quest shaman. And any turn where it isn't (such as turns where I've played dragons pack combined with corruptor), I'm of course not going to press the button. 

 you know what, just add me, you play the quest i play the non quest, best of 3 lets go

tip: don't play big ole welp, it's fucking bad.

 Sure friend, sure. Unfortunately, I don't really value your bravado enough to take the bait. Especially since my days off have run out before christmas, so I've got a work to go to now. So I guess either justify your positions, or I'm just not going to take them seriously. Don't really have the time now to waste an hour fighting on a hill that I'm not that invested in.

My predictions is it'll be a few tweaks across the board. Not enough to kill the deck, but enough to give other decks breathing room.

Elementalist will probably be made 6 mana.

Dragons pack will probably get hit in stats. Maybe 5/5s?

Shudderwock will be made 10 mana.

Galakrond might see a hit, though I'm uncertain what change will be made there. 

Corruptor will probably see the biggest hit, as he's not only insane in this deck, but any deck that can run lackies, or smaller cards. I'm going to guess it'll be something like a 6 mana 5/3. Enough of a change that it's still good, but not so outstanding that it'll be run in practically everything.

Corrupt the waters might also get hit, though I'm uncertain on this one. If it did, probably bumping up to 7 battlecries would be about right with other nerfs. Again, giving decks some more breathing room.

Invocation of frost isn't a problem card at all. I honestly think it's pretty weak, and a lot of lists are cutting it.

Morgu is a similar story to invocation imo. It's definitely a good card, but it just isn't that impactful compared to the other big hitters. Why would it get hit when corruptor is just a much better version of it?

Quote from Zaywop >>

Will need someone to explain to me how non quest is better.

well the non quest version runs more card draw which is really important on the other hand, quest version runs out of cards really fast. other than that they run that 3/3 legendary that trigger next spell twice which can lead to 4 5/6 minions with taunt at turn 8 or 2 cards drawn with far sight and non quest is simply faster than quest version and that's a big deal since tempo is super important and most games gets decieded by who is the first that plays galk/ shudderwok. and every turn you have 2 extra mana.

Erm...what? How on earth does quest shaman run out of cards? It has a far more powerful, far more efficient draw engine. Being able to run questing explorer, novice, and big ol whelp for draw, as well as double up on any late game lackies for some really insane value generation. Also, since quest shaman gets to run MCT, using electra to double up on dragons pack has led me to just spend 5 to steal two of theirs, and then use my own left over mana to just out tempo them. The only good draw trick non quest has is the ability to use far sight with her to draw two, and get a discount. But given how it is still running low cost cards, that can end up not having the greatest payoff either. Which is one of my main issues with non quest galakrond. Just how reliant it is on good rng with cards like far sight and mutate.

Also the idea that it's whoever plays galk first wins, is absolutely wrong. I will purposefully wait until after they play theirs in a grinder game, and blow them out with the counter. Turns out having 2 8/8s that can't hit face that turn have a habit of losing to 4 that can trade. And as for shudderwock value, quest again will just have the better shudderwock typically. More draw effects, more generation effects. More battlecries in general, and sometimes even the 1-2 aoe damage from sandstorms really help control a late game board if tempo is needed.

Just saying that non quest has 2 more mana is somewhat asinine, as it's implying it's 2 mana wasted, when in reality it is often the most valued 2 mana every turn for quest shaman. And any turn where it isn't (such as turns where I've played dragons pack combined with corruptor), I'm of course not going to press the button.