Hearthpwn

EDIT: I'm just going to keep a running log of this, because it's ridiculous.  I wish I'd built this at launch.  Hearthstone has never been so easy.  Here are all of my quest rogue games to date since I crafted the card last night:

5/1/17:   7-3 after building the deck.  Started out at 2-2 then won 5 straight before losing again.

5/2/17 (morning): Before work I won 4 straight in about 10 minutes, with 1 auto-concede the minute I played the quest.  People don't even bother trying.  One of these wins was a Pirate Warrior, of all things.  Then I lost two.  Overall record so far: 11-5.

5/2/17 (evening): This is where I started keeping an eye on the specific games.

Game 1 (v. Taunt Warrior) - I got the quest out on turn 4, had fatal on turn 6, she conceded.

Game 2 (v. Disco Warlock) - I got the quest done on turn 3, played it on turn 5, he conceded.

Game 3 (v. Quest Rogue) - My opponent finished the quest on turn 2, prepped it out on turn 3.  I finished mine on turn 4, but he had fatal by then.  

Game 4 (v. vs. Taunt Warrior) - This game went loooooong but I beat her. Quest done on 4, played 5.  Outlasted two brawls, two primordial drakes, and one ravaging goul/swim with the fishes.  Five clears and I still won.

Game 5 (v. Midrange Hunter) - I got a craaaaappy draw.  He got, as 100% of hunters always do, Alley Cat + Scavenging Hyena in his opening hand.  I literally cannot remember the last time I played a hunter who did NOT have this combo.  Killed Leokk, then he summoned another one, and then I badly misplayed on turn 5, and that basically cost me the game.  He got a windfury adapt on turn 6 and that was that.  I finished the quest on turn 6 but he killed me on 7.

Game 6 (v. Taunt Warrior) - Quest out on turn 6, guy conceded on turn 7. 

Game 7 (v. Murloc Paladin) - Quest out on turn turn 5, he conceded.

Game 8 (v. Quest/Miracle Rogue hybrid) - Lost.

Game 9 (v. Warrior) - Type unknown, auto-concede when I played the quest.

Game 10 (v. Elemental Shaman) - Quest done on turn 3, played on turn 5, he conceded.

Game 11 (v. Midhunter Hunter) - Quest done on turn 4, played on turn 5, he hung in for 2 rounds and quit.  Oh, and he had alley cat and Hyena in his mulligan.  Of course.

Game 12 (v. Shaman) - Type unknown, auto-concede when I played the quest.

Game 13 (v. Jade Druid) - Quest done on turn 9, he hung on for one round, I removed all of his jade, he conceded.

Game 14 (v. Discolock) - Quest done on turn 3, played on turn 5, he conceded.

Game 15 (v. Midrange Hunter) - Finally lost.  I baaaadly misplayed vs. Hyena.  I thought I had enough mana to clear his cats and then vanish the Hyena back with a Prep, but I was off by one and left an 8/5 Hyena on the board.  He adapted windfury and that was that. Was probably going to lose that one anyway, though.  Like 100% of hunters, he had alley cat and Hyena in his opening hand.  Always happens, without fail.

I've gone from rank 20 something to 14 in one day. This usually takes me all month.  In fact, many months I don't even get to 15, I stall out.  Usually I have to wait until the end of the month when most people are done ranking up and try to squeeze it in the last few days.

LOVE this deck.  Love it. 

 [EDIT]  Ok, it's finally coming back down to earth a little.  These are all standard ladder games, BTW.

Game 16 (v. Midrange Hunter) - Loss due to misplay.  I had him beat but fumblethumbed a play and hit preparation when I didn't mean to.  This cost me a vanish I needed to clear his board.

Game 17 (v. Jade Druid)  - Win.  Quest done by turn 4, played turn 5.

Game 18 (v. Jade Druid) - Loss.  Quest done and played on turn 4, but he unrolled a string of taunts and jades that I just couldn't get past.  After topdecking for 8 turns, he finally turned the screws and finished me off.

Game 19 (v. Murloc Paladin) - Easy win.

Game 20 (v. Midrange Hunter) - Loss.  Alley cat + hyena again!

Game 21 (v. Elemental Shaman) - Easy win.

Game 22 (v. Some kind of controllish mage?) - Easy win and finished quest on turn 3, but couldn't play until 5, no Prep!

Game 23 (v. Midrange Hunte) - Win.  Guy conceded the turn after I played the quest.

Game 24 (v. Nzoth Paladin) - Lord.  Win.  C'mon.

Game 25 (v. Midrange Hunter) - Lost BAD.  Had great draw too, guy just plain outplayed me.  Alley cat + hyena in opening hand again! 

Game 26 (v. Jade Druid) - Another bad loss, guy had good draw but he also expertly played around my deck. 

Game 25 (v. Taunt Warrior) - Win, even though I didn't get the quest done until late. HE had a crappy draw through and misplayed badly.

So 7-5 last night.  That's a bit more normal.

Quote from finniggann >>

you can equality consecrate the board, or pyro equality, this is partially why paladin does so well versus rogue, also paladin has tempo plays each turn, together that means rogue loses against arguably the best deck right now, but it also loses agains: control priest, midrange hunter, pirate warrior, token druid, any other rogue deck, other stuff I am to lazy to mention. it kinda is just not good enough past rank 10 to be a tier 1 or maybe even tier 2

I am 2-0 vs pirate warriors with this deck.  To be fair, one guy played Leeroy Jenkins to kill off a taunt, handing me a pair of whelps that turned into 5/5's I sent back into his face the next turn, so ... that guy was dumb.

As for my thoughts on this card ... I was very AGAINST the "nerf" bandwagon when Un'goro launched.  But, this is the only deck that I have been completely unable to compete with.  I've played against this deck 20-30 times and beat it maybe 4 times.  I had thought it was because I played slow decks that gave this one too much room to breathe, but I switched up my decks and and even went Pirate Warrior, and I still lose to this thing.  I am not a very good player, however, so it could be that I just don't know what I'm doing.

However, last night I decided to just craft the damn quest (I've got like 6k dust sitting around) and try it out, and learn its weaknesses.  My conclusion is that it doesn't really have many other than the inherent risks of any deck (bad matchups and unlucky draw)  A really aggressive deck with good draw will beat you too fast.   A taunt warrior can sometimes get lucky and outlast you.  Otherwise, unless you just get the worst possible draw, I don't see how to not win with this deck.  I initially went 13-6 with a quest rogue deck that I just made up on the spot from memory while watching TV.  I haven't even tried to optimize it yet.  I've since gone 3-2, so it's coming back down to earth a little, but still - 16 and 8 is a much, much higher win percentage than I get with basically anything else. And again - if the problem is that I'm not a good player (which is true), then I also should not be winning this easily with this deck.  I can't win that much with Pirate Warrior, and that is a completely brain-dead deck to play.

That said, I do think this deck is harder than Pirate Warrior.  If you just blindly rush the quest condition, you'll lose games.  I learned that early on.  But, unless you completely mismanage your deck, or get just insanely bad draw (which will lose games for you with basically any deck), this one seems a little too strong to me.

I don't think making it require 5 bounces is the answer, because I don't think it will actually fix the problem.  Rogues will just play more of a control game to stretch things out until they get the fifth bounce, and then we'll just have the same problem a few turns later.  Having 1 or 2 extra big minions to absorb the damage won't change things much.  4 bounces seem to be calibrated about right.  

I think instead, I'd nerf it to say, "Whenever you summon a minion, it becomes a 5/5."  Summon, not play.  This continues to make the effect apply to tokens, but also makes it silence-able, poly-able, hex-able, and so forth.  That's the only thing I think needs to be changed.  The problem is that the quest produces effectively a massive supply of 1 mana 5/5 minions (that alone is not the problem) that effectively cannot be removed except through damage.  Other than a few very specific effects, like Brawl, they're there until you do 5 damage to them.  

Quote from Agithore >>

Quote from TheWamts >>

Quote from Murozond_18 >>

not exactly, rogue has so many ways of getting copies of cards. Even 2 neutral cards that send them back to your hand

 There are 6 bouncers total in the deck. You already need to use 3. Each is on average 4 (5, but I'll bump it down to 4 because of lucky Mimic Pods and the Elementals) cards deeper in the deck. Playing the 6th copy wouldn't happen until turn 14. Just 5 wouldn't be until turn 10. Quest on turn 6 is already bordering on too slow.

 I think Shadowstep could use a nerf until the deck is around, or could just be sent to the Hall of Fame set. It allows very easy bouncing back, coupled with the fact that it reduces the cost of the card too, I've seen the quest completed by Turn 3 even (and Core played as well, thanks to Prep). Not to say that, that happens often, but the card itself can lead to a very unfair environment. 

So I hit Rank 10 for the first time last month by alternating among a Midrange Paladin deck, taunt warrior, and pirate warrior.  I barfed a little in my mouth after that last one.  Anyway, I've been playing since Blackrock Mountain and am just now hitting ten.  Obviously, I'm not a great player. Not bad, but I don't have the time or patience to play enough games to advance, and I don't know the decks well enough to play around things, etc.  Ok, table set.

So, the one deck I simply cannot beat is Quest Rogue.  Not even with pirate warrior, not with aggro hunter, nothing.  I've beat that deck maybe 3-4 times out of the dozens of times I've played it.  It feels like EVERY TIME I play that deck, they have God drawn and the quest is done by turn 4 and I'm dead by turn 6. 

But I've heard many people, whose opinions I greatly respect, insist that it's not THAT good of a deck, it's too draw-dependent, and if you get bad draw, you're toast.  They've told me I'm not playing against it correctly.  I've read countless guides on how to beat quest rogue and my conclusion was that I was just playing decks that are too slow to beat it.  So, I retooled my decks to be faster, and I still couldn't beat it.

I've been sitting on a mountain of dust, so last night I'm laying in bed watching TV and I decided to just craft The Caverns Below and try it.  I figured that since I was unable to figure out how to beat it from the victim side, I'll just start playing it and see how the deck plays and how I get beat, and apply those lessons when I'm playing other decks.  Bear in mind, I've never played the deck, and I didn't consult any net deck builds or play guides, I just crafted the cards and threw together a deck from memory based on what I've encountered.

I won 2 games, then lost 2.  I saw how the draw mattered, and tweaked the deck slightly to add more "bounce" cards and some more early control.  Then I won 4 straight and lost one.  The one I lost was to an aggro druid, and I almost beat him, too.  He got insanely good draw, my draw was insanely bad (not a single bounce card until turn 8), and I still almost beat him.  One more turn or basically ANY slightly better draw and I had him.

Then I won 5 straight and then lost one, this time to an aggro hunter.  That game was weird, because I finished the damn quest on TURN 2. That's right.  Turn 2.  But I didn't have preparation and couldn't play the quest for 3 more turns.  If I had drawn Prep, I'd have won that one.

Then I won 4 more straight, including an utter beatdown of a pirate warrior (who admittedly didn't know WTF he was doing --- I'm playing quest Rogue and he dumps Leeroy, handing me two 5/5's?  Fool!), then lost 2.  

Total: 13-6.  With a deck I just made up on the spot and have no real idea how to play.  I didn't even have Patches in the deck until the last 4 wins, I had forgotten to include him entirely.

Now, I'm playing at really low ranks so maybe the competition is too easy, but at this time of the month, I usually stink it up in the 15-20 range.  I've got losing records in May so far with Taunt Warrior, Midrange Paladin (Silver Hand), Midrange Paladin (Murloc), Elemental Shaman, and Beast Hunter.  The only two decks I'm winning with are Pirate Warrior (BARF) and Quest Rogue.

I was very much NOT on the "nerf quest rogue" bandwagon.  But I gotta tell ya'll ... now that I've got it, I might be turning that corner.  This isn't anywhere near as easy to play as Pirate Warrior, and it's nowhere near as powerful as Patron Warrior, but it also isn't nearly as high skill of a deck as Patron Warrior.  If I get even mediocre draw, the deck is virtually impossible to beat.  About the only way I can lose is if I simply CANNOT complete the quest, period, until after turn 7 or 8 (which is exceedingly rare), or my opponent is playing a very aggressive deck style AND gets the right draw.  Everybody else is toast.

Color me concerned.

I crafted Spiritsinger Umbra but haven't used it much.  It's a fine card, but I just got to golden priest and haven't really been playing priest, which is the main deck where I'd use it.  But, I think this card is going to have a place in the meta in the coming expansions, so ... we'll see.

Got 1 epic I needed.  Legend would have been nice but ... as it is I'm sitting on 6k+ dust and I don't have anything I'm dying to craft.  I've been going through and picking up some Classic epics I'm still missing - made a second Brawl. .... I guess I could use two Dirty Rats, I don't have any.

Shaman and Priest.  Because I've got gold heroes for both Shaman and Priest. 

I'm a collector type so I never dust anything that isn't an extra.  I did at first, but I regretted it.  Cards that seemed to have no purpose later gained one and I've crafted more than one card that I previously dusted.  It all depends: are you going short or going long?  Are you going for maximum immediate impact (short) or overall maximization of resources (long)?  If going long, don't dust anything.  If going short, dust what you don't need and build what you do.  Depends on your personality and outlook.

My RNG has been nuts good with this expansion.  I got totally hosed in MSG.  I think I hit the pity timer three times in a row with MSG.  Out of my initial 67 packs, I got 2 Legendaries.

For Un'goro, I've opened around 120 packs total, and I've drawn Tyrantus, Tyrantus, Elise, Pyros, Open the Waygate, Sunkeeper Tarim, Sherazin, King Mosh, and today I drew Kalimos.  That's waaaay above average.  And then I've got 8k+ dust still, so I can build 5 more.

I friend everybody I play.  About 1 in 10 accepts.  It took a few months but I built up a sizeable friend list and I get a "Play-a-Friend" quest about once a week now from one of them.

Here's my thinking on this.

(1) Ysera - I don't craft Classic Legendaries as a rule unless I absolutely need them to make a deck work because there is no substitute.  I can't think of a deck that requires Ysera and nothing else, so I wouldn't craft her.

If you want an easy deck, go Pirate Warrior.  It's probably the lowest-skill deck out there that can wins consistently post-15  When I just need to grind out some wins, that's what I play.  It's just soooo boring.  But, it's fast.  You'll know by turn 3-4 if you're going to win, so you can save time on losing matchups and not have to play for 15 minutes to find out that Sulfuras and/or Brawl RNG is going to decide the game.   I don't even play it all that smartly and I win consistently with it.  And for you Pirate Warrior defenders out there, I'm not saying there's not a smart way to play the deck, I'm saying you don't HAVE to play it all that smartly to win with it at 15.  Anyway, there's plenty of guides out there on how to play it, and you can min/max winrate by playing smarter than I do, but if you just make the deck, mulligan right, and go all face, you'll rank up.  People have written bots to run this deck and have gotten Legendary with them.  It's that good.

Caveat: I've never gotten below rank 10

I find that 20-15 is a matter of playing a competitive deck (any competitive deck) competently, and getting a little lucky.  If you hit a series of bad draws, or a series of decks that are bad matchups, you're going to lose games, I don't care how good you are.  But if you stick with it, getting to 15 isn't that hard.

From 15 on, it's a little different.  For one, lots of people hit 15 and stop trying to advance, because the marginal rewards for 14, 13, etc., are garbage but the difficulty of advancing gets very high.  The time investment/reward is totally not worth it unless you can get to 10.  So, if you're trying to advance past 15, you're playing against people who think they can get to 10.  That's the top 20-30% of Hearthstone, so you're already not playing the bottom 3/4ths of the players, you're playing the rest of the top.  

Now it's not good enough to just play a competitive deck competently (e.g., any Tier 1-3 deck), it's a matter of playing a good deck (Tier 1-2) and either playing almost flawlessly or getting lucky with draws.  I find most of my post-Rank 15 games boil down to one or two misplays or one or two draws.  Most of them end up being coin flips - if I get the card I need when I need it, I win.  Same for my opponent.  You end up losing a lot of games where your opponent just draws insanely lucky.  You'll remember those, but you'll forget the times that you did it.

And then you just need to win enough games, and at the right time.  You need to string together some streaks to advance quickly, then brace for the fall back when you lose 4 in a row.  Or more.  It's like a glacier.  Slide forward 5 feet but melt back 4.  You're gaining in increments.

I think in this range there's still a decent amount of deck variety so I don't know whether teching in matters at all. Maybe.  I don't play enough and am not good enough where it matters.