hello guys, in the last 90 days (35+ runs), I've been averaging 6 wins per run. Now I'm at a lost on how to improve my game to reach the legendary 7 wins per run.
These days I use Heartharena to dictate my deck drafting. However, I often hear that the top players that use Heartharena often go against Heartharena card choices 4-6 times per run. I usually only go against Heartharena card choices 0-3 times per run, which means that my drafting is not yet up to par.
Could the experts here mention some fallacies of Heartharena in regards to its drafting? For example, if they undervalue/overvalue some cards, combos, types, etc.
Also, if some infinite run players share some knowledge on how they improved from 6 wins to 7+ wins, that would be great!
ADWCTA claims the program only misdrafts once or twice per run on average, and its hard to find significantly better players, albeit he is obviously biased. It may also be difficult to demonstrate who is correct on close picks: for example, cards within two points of each other are not usefully distinguished by the program.
The established tier lists (i.e. not right after a release) and mana curve have been tuned by a massive amount of metrics no individual player has access to, so I find that hard to disagree with those. How exactly to score card synergies I am a little more suspicious of.
Example - It valued Devilsaur ridiculously high because i had 1 huge toad in my deck. I said - no thanks and took the much more consistent other card. FYI this was very early - probably pick 5.
_____
Below is another example of HeathArenas being laughable, enjoy!
ADWCTA claims the program only misdrafts once or twice per run on average, and its hard to find significantly better players, albeit he is obviously biased. It may also be difficult to demonstrate who is correct on close picks: for example, cards within two points of each other are not usefully distinguished by the program.
The established tier lists (i.e. not right after a release) and mana curve have been tuned by a massive amount of metrics no individual player has access to, so I find that hard to disagree with those. How exactly to score card synergies I am a little more suspicious of.
hello guys, in the last 90 days (35+ runs), I've been averaging 6 wins per run. Now I'm at a lost on how to improve my game to reach the legendary 7 wins per run.
These days I use Heartharena to dictate my deck drafting. However, I often hear that the top players that use Heartharena often go against Heartharena card choices 4-6 times per run. I usually only go against Heartharena card choices 0-3 times per run, which means that my drafting is not yet up to par.
Could the experts here mention some fallacies of Heartharena in regards to its drafting? For example, if they undervalue/overvalue some cards, combos, types, etc.
Also, if some infinite run players share some knowledge on how they improved from 6 wins to 7+ wins, that would be great!
Remember, at the end of the day, it's someone's opinion that gave the score that hearth arena presents you with. You might feel a different minion is better for your play style or worth more to you then what it recommends. It's generally very good at spotting synergies that you might otherwise of missed. But even that it does make mistakes by not spotting obvious synergies or claiming there are synergies there that aren't.
The big logic flaw is "I usually only go against Heartharena card choices 0-3 times per run, which means that my drafting is not yet up to par." Going against HA how many times doesn't necessarily mean anything, and also most likely has nothing to do (or at most very little to do) with how well you draft. In fact using your premise I can logically reach the opposite conclusion which is that you are a better drafter than "top players", and perhaps you are who knows?
So the fallacy is a logical one in that you are using crappy premises and bad assumptions to reach an equally crappy conclusion. How do you explain "top players" that do not use HA at all? You really should focus on something more meaningful if you are looking to become infinite.
As an infinite player myself I don't think drafting matters all that much. Assuming you have a good understanding of basic arena principles and card values, when you make "tough" drafting decisions the cards being considered should be almost equally good, so picking one over the other shouldn't make you a bad drafter.
Here is a thought experiment: suppose one day you ask a friend (who knows nothing about HS) to draft for you, and you tell your friend "pick cards with the highest number". You step away for a few minutes and come back with a deck. Do you think the quality of the deck would be so much different? This depends on what you think of the quality of the HA algorithm. I think it is not bad and I wouldn't be too unhappy if I am forced to follow all its recommendations.
The other major flaw is that it always, always wants cheap creatures.
This is soooo true! It pushes you to get at least 6-7 two mana drops. I did 12 wins four times and guess what, I did it without Heartharena. I had four or five two mana drops and better late game cards. Probably it doesn't mean anything but for my play style Heartharena doesn't work.
Heartharena has two major flaws, I'd say. One is that it heavily, heavily overrates synergies; it seems to assume that you will win jousts most of the time regardless of curve, that having one dragon is enough for blackwing corruptor, things like that. The other major flaw is that it always, always wants cheap creatures. It just wants to push you into aggro, aggro, aggro. I'm just not bothering with it any more. "We seriously need 2-drops!" is its motto regardless of anything else.
Well, I don't think that the high amount of cheap creatures is bad, by far the most of my 12 win runs have been with agressive, tempo-heavy decks that aim to win roughly by turn 8-12. Strong control-style-ish decks are quite rare in arena since earlygame tempo is just so crucial in arena.
However I definitely agree on the synergy part. Still the tool is pretty impressive to me, since the algorithm for dynamic calculations for the cards does its job fairly well. (Even though I wouldn't be too sad without it, since then I'd probably face more suboptimally drafted decks which would lead to higher win runs ;))
If I use heartharena, I rarely make more than 2 or 3 picks that are not the most suggested card in heartharena.
Edit: I just looked it up and it turned out that the above was a lie. I was just judging from my feeling, the facts tell me the amount of different picks out of my last 10 runs I put in heartharena varies from 2-7, averaging roughly around 3,5.
Also I think it does misvalue a few cards a bit, but this is just minor. Examples are Abusive Sergeant and Pit Snake which seem to be overrated to me, and Ogre Warmaul and Pit Fighter on the other end (underrated). Probably a few more but these were the ones that come to my mind.
HA tried to really push a summoning stone (scored a 107) once when it had no business being in the deck. I had a few 1 mana spells, and 2x 3 mana spells. Not worth it in my opinion, especially against a Thunderbluff valient (only rated a 70 something).
I would not give up 5 mana to get a free 1 drop or two at best.
Hearth arena is a guide only. It pushes 2 drops and therefore aggro a lot but you should often be aiming for 6-8 2 drops in arena and arena is all about tempo at the moment so this isn't bad in most situations. However some of the synergy evaluation is off and IMO some of the card values are off. Plus ever since ADWCTA and MERPS left I don't get the feeling a top hearthstone arena player is behind the newer cards valuations or keeping on top of re-evaluation or the synergy programming.
1) It fails to value synergistic effects that occur over multiple turns, some synergy it just misses completely.
2) It pushes you towards mid-range decks all the time, then calims at the end you've built an aggro or a control deck, when really what you've usually got is a mid-range deck leaning slightly one way or the other, if you follow all the picks.
3) Less important but some cards it flat out undervalues in my opinion. One example of a card that crops up often would be dire wolf alpha.
HA is an amazing tool for learning how to draft better, but in my experience there comes a point when you're better off going it alone. It lets you play more to your own strengths and judgment. If you're getting around 6 wins you've probably reached that point.
If you are averaging around 6 wins, here's an experiment you can try. Start drafting without it. Your winrate may go down for your first dozen arenas or so - do it anyway. It'll become intuitive to draft without it soon enough. After maybe 40 arenas, draft a few with HA again.
I think you'll see where it goes wrong pretty quickly.
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hello guys, in the last 90 days (35+ runs), I've been averaging 6 wins per run. Now I'm at a lost on how to improve my game to reach the legendary 7 wins per run.
These days I use Heartharena to dictate my deck drafting. However, I often hear that the top players that use Heartharena often go against Heartharena card choices 4-6 times per run. I usually only go against Heartharena card choices 0-3 times per run, which means that my drafting is not yet up to par.
Could the experts here mention some fallacies of Heartharena in regards to its drafting? For example, if they undervalue/overvalue some cards, combos, types, etc.
Also, if some infinite run players share some knowledge on how they improved from 6 wins to 7+ wins, that would be great!
ADWCTA claims the program only misdrafts once or twice per run on average, and its hard to find significantly better players, albeit he is obviously biased. It may also be difficult to demonstrate who is correct on close picks: for example, cards within two points of each other are not usefully distinguished by the program.
The established tier lists (i.e. not right after a release) and mana curve have been tuned by a massive amount of metrics no individual player has access to, so I find that hard to disagree with those. How exactly to score card synergies I am a little more suspicious of.
It values synergy incorrectly sometimes.
Example - It valued Devilsaur ridiculously high because i had 1 huge toad in my deck. I said - no thanks and took the much more consistent other card. FYI this was very early - probably pick 5.
_____
Below is another example of HeathArenas being laughable, enjoy!
https://www.twitch.tv/boozortv/v/64152954
Twitch Arena Stream: https://www.twitch.tv/boozor / Youtube Chanel: https://www.youtube.com/c/boozortv
#1 Arena Leader Board Player in North America - August 2018 and April 2020
#2 NA Nov 18, #2 Asia July 19, #2 NA Feb 20, #2 NA June 20
http://i.imgur.com/yNQirIJ.gifv
http://i.imgur.com/yNQirIJ.gifv
The big logic flaw is "I usually only go against Heartharena card choices 0-3 times per run, which means that my drafting is not yet up to par." Going against HA how many times doesn't necessarily mean anything, and also most likely has nothing to do (or at most very little to do) with how well you draft. In fact using your premise I can logically reach the opposite conclusion which is that you are a better drafter than "top players", and perhaps you are who knows?
So the fallacy is a logical one in that you are using crappy premises and bad assumptions to reach an equally crappy conclusion. How do you explain "top players" that do not use HA at all? You really should focus on something more meaningful if you are looking to become infinite.
As an infinite player myself I don't think drafting matters all that much. Assuming you have a good understanding of basic arena principles and card values, when you make "tough" drafting decisions the cards being considered should be almost equally good, so picking one over the other shouldn't make you a bad drafter.
Here is a thought experiment: suppose one day you ask a friend (who knows nothing about HS) to draft for you, and you tell your friend "pick cards with the highest number". You step away for a few minutes and come back with a deck. Do you think the quality of the deck would be so much different? This depends on what you think of the quality of the HA algorithm. I think it is not bad and I wouldn't be too unhappy if I am forced to follow all its recommendations.
I did 12 wins four times and guess what, I did it without Heartharena. I had four or five two mana drops and better late game cards. Probably it doesn't mean anything but for my play style Heartharena doesn't work.
I think if you are averaging 6+ wins per run you are probably beyond the point where Heartharena can help you much.
The only cancer in Hearthstone is its community.
If I use heartharena, I rarely make more than 2 or 3 picks that are not the most suggested card in heartharena.Arena Leaderboard EU - September 2018: #47 (@7.77 Wins Average)
HA tried to really push a summoning stone (scored a 107) once when it had no business being in the deck. I had a few 1 mana spells, and 2x 3 mana spells. Not worth it in my opinion, especially against a Thunderbluff valient (only rated a 70 something).
I would not give up 5 mana to get a free 1 drop or two at best.
Now with a mage, things may be different.
<<Insert clever line here>>
No comment.
Arena Leaderboard EU - September 2018: #47 (@7.77 Wins Average)
Hearth arena is a guide only. It pushes 2 drops and therefore aggro a lot but you should often be aiming for 6-8 2 drops in arena and arena is all about tempo at the moment so this isn't bad in most situations. However some of the synergy evaluation is off and IMO some of the card values are off. Plus ever since ADWCTA and MERPS left I don't get the feeling a top hearthstone arena player is behind the newer cards valuations or keeping on top of re-evaluation or the synergy programming.
1) It fails to value synergistic effects that occur over multiple turns, some synergy it just misses completely.
2) It pushes you towards mid-range decks all the time, then calims at the end you've built an aggro or a control deck, when really what you've usually got is a mid-range deck leaning slightly one way or the other, if you follow all the picks.
3) Less important but some cards it flat out undervalues in my opinion. One example of a card that crops up often would be dire wolf alpha.
It also gives you "control decks" with like 1 removal spell.
RIP yogg-saron good things don't last forever :(
HA is an amazing tool for learning how to draft better, but in my experience there comes a point when you're better off going it alone. It lets you play more to your own strengths and judgment. If you're getting around 6 wins you've probably reached that point.
If you are averaging around 6 wins, here's an experiment you can try. Start drafting without it. Your winrate may go down for your first dozen arenas or so - do it anyway. It'll become intuitive to draft without it soon enough. After maybe 40 arenas, draft a few with HA again.
I think you'll see where it goes wrong pretty quickly.
Not all who wander are lost.