Hearthpwn

Quote from DragonConsort jump

U still lose out with BGH, so even the so called 'perfect counter' isn't a counter.  

3 mana vs 7 mana, what do you expect, i-win button?

Quote from kwikill »

Hell, I'd love to see Rags changed, too. I wouldn't mind seeing his cost drop to 7 if it meant his text changing from "end" to "start", but I gave up that fight long ago.

 

The problems with Boom, as mentioned, are the difficulty in countering, that he's a huge tempo swing in most situations and he's overbudget.

so what? most other big legendaries suffer massive tempo loss when they get BGHd immediately, its nice to see ONE legendary without an immediate effect, that actually threatens aggro and midrange decks boards and doesnt suffer from BGH and other cheap removals that much. so he 2 for 1s you? Well as he SHOULD. hes a damn 7 drop, he should be able to take out couple of your low cost drops...

Quote from Metzelmax »

zombie chow is not an aggro card, you dimwit.

I never said it was...

Quote from linvega2 »

Quote from Sare »

those cards werent played precisely because game has options like BGH...

and seriously? the ladder is dominated by aggro and tempo decks that can, with the right draw, melt your face in 5-6 turns regardless of what you draw and the game "badly needs" efficient removals for big cards? just wow. how about having big minions to counter big minions? ever thought of that? there is a reason why they nerfed tinkmaster ... with mindset like yours, this game will never have decent representation of differend kinds of decks and aggro/tempo will just dominate for all eternity

What kind of ridiculous balancing is that? The only counter to a certain kind of cards should be those cards themselves ... You honestly think that's a good idea ? I'm really happy other games aren't balanced like that. " Cavalry shouldn't be strong against archers, that's unfair, only archers should be able to beat other archers".

I mean, just use that statement on your dreaded aggro: "How about having aggro minions counter aggro minions? ever thought of that?"

Also, as Metzelmax said, BgH isn't even run by aggro decks. They already have a counter to big late game minions - finishing faster. Nope, efficient removal enables late game play. Without that, whoever drops a big enough minion first will win, since he just needs to hit face while the opponent desperately tries to trade.

but... countering aggro minions with minions IS whats mostly happening, because earlygame removals arent nearly as efficient and early aoes are usually limited to 2 damage, why do you think people run zombie chows?? ...

and no, if there werent as many effective removals, taunts would actually serve their purpose well. shocking revelation, i know. Right now, its more like whoever has the first super tempo swing against the big card, wins which is why noone runs those slow big cards without an immediate impact, not worth the risk...

Quote from linvega2 »

Quote from Sare »

noone is forced to run him, just look at the damn hunter or rogue decks, most decks that run him would be running him regardless.

When you dont balance those cards around BGH, then you just dont see majority of them played, just look at all the cards that never saw competitive play because they are too  easily removed before they can do anything. This game is swarmed with efficient tempo removals for big cards, cant you just get over the fact, that we finally have a big card that ISNT easily removed but has some impact on the board? ...

These cards weren't even played back when Bgh was rather uncommon, so that isn't due to him.

Also, with such a little health pool and the fact that targeting is attacker's choice, the game badly NEEDS efficient removal for big cards. The upside of a big-sized minion already is that only 2 swings of such a minion nearly kills your hero considering some prior face damage and/or a minimal amount of finishing power.

So, if the upside is "win the game right there" they need a considerable downside. And these are the tempo-efficient removals, like BgH. Just Dr. Boom is the exception.

those cards werent played precisely because game has options like BGH...

and seriously? the ladder is dominated by aggro and tempo decks that can, with the right draw, melt your face in 5-6 turns regardless of what you draw and the game "badly needs" efficient removals for big cards? just wow. how about having big minions to counter big minions? ever thought of that? there is a reason why they nerfed tinkmaster ... with mindset like yours, this game will never have decent representation of differend kinds of decks and aggro/tempo will just dominate for all eternity

Quote from linvega2 »

Quote from Sare »

Quote from skibskub »

Quote from BoltBase »

No it doesn't need to be nerfed because its basically 7 mana for 2 boom bots because the dr. boom will get bgh straight away. Also im sick of seeing this thread go over the same points over and over and over.....

That is the worst argument ever. So the rest of the games 7+ attack minions you actually pay 7 mana for nothing? Yea, ok.

Actually yes, thats why 7+ attack minions ARENT played unless they have an immediate impact like alexa, geddon or rag...with BGH around, 7+ attack cards have to be overbudget to be playable...

The whole point of bgh existing is to avoid 7+ attack minions becoming too common in any meta. Just like Harrison does for weapons. So no, 7+ attack minions shouldn't be balanced with bgh in mind, just like weapons aren't balanced with Harrison in mind. It's not BGH's fault that everyone is forced to run him right now.

noone is forced to run him, just look at the damn hunter or rogue decks, most decks that run him would be running him regardless.

When you dont balance those cards around BGH, then you just dont see majority of them played, just look at all the cards that never saw competitive play because they are too  easily removed before they can do anything. This game is swarmed with efficient tempo removals for big cards, cant you just get over the fact, that we finally have a big card that ISNT easily removed but has some impact on the board? ...

Quote from skibskub »

Quote from BoltBase »

No it doesn't need to be nerfed because its basically 7 mana for 2 boom bots because the dr. boom will get bgh straight away. Also im sick of seeing this thread go over the same points over and over and over.....

That is the worst argument ever. So the rest of the games 7+ attack minions you actually pay 7 mana for nothing? Yea, ok.

Actually yes, thats why 7+ attack minions ARENT played unless they have an immediate impact like alexa, geddon or rag...with BGH around, 7+ attack cards have to be overbudget to be playable...

Quote from Sisuwolf»

Quote from Sare»

Quote from Triskaidekaphilia»

So if you have a bunch of legendaries that stink in a fast meta, and a handful of legendaries that do alright in a fast meta but are meh in a control meta, and you have 1 legendary that's good in fast, slow, mid-game, and combo meta - which one is balanced?

we dont have a legendary thats all around good in all kinds of meta. Boom wouldnt work in a meta completely dominated by facehutner or miracle/oil rogue type of decks... And look at sylvanas, she can go in every single deck that runs boom, too and she is really popular for like a year now. the difference here is, 6slot actually has competition if you are looking for something different than what sylvanas offers, there are sticky minions like cairne, golem or highmane or minions with immediate effect like fire ele or argent commander, what does 7slot offer?

 Actually Boom IS good in all metas. That's the problem. Too much value.

Look at the quote below. It is the truth. And also the reason Boom needs a nerf and not Sylvanas. You just put Boom in any deck and he creates wins. Sylvanas does not.

Quote from Triskaidekaphilia »

So if you have a bunch of legendaries that stink in a fast meta, and a handful of legendaries that do alright in a fast meta but are meh in a control meta, and you have 1 legendary that's good in fast, slow, mid-game, and combo meta - which one is balanced?

we dont have a legendary thats all around good in all kinds of meta. Boom wouldnt work in a meta completely dominated by facehutner or miracle/oil rogue type of decks... And look at sylvanas, she can go in every single deck that runs boom, too and she is really popular for like a year now. the difference here is, 6slot actually has competition if you are looking for something different than what sylvanas offers, there are sticky minions like cairne, golem or highmane or minions with immediate effect like fire ele or argent commander, what does 7slot offer?

Quote from Sisuwolf »

Quote from Kossetsu »

Quote from dinamar »

At this point i dont really care if he is balanced, if he fits this or fits that.

I just dont want to see that same legendary played over and over again. Very few decks i meet run without him. At this point all, and i mean all, round 6s are spend either preparing for your own Dr, or for your opponents to hit the board. 

Yeah, if nothing else, add something just as strong as Dr. Boom himself so there's at least variety in which "better than everything else" card you want.

Making 2 Booms is not a solution. It just makes it worse.

What happens to all the currently unplayable Legendary cards? We know that there is almost no chance that Blizz will buff these cards. Are we just supposed to forget nearly 1/2 the Legendary cards in the game because of the arrival of Boom? It doesn't make sense.

Kripp just the other day made a Bolvar video. In it he mentions how almost all the GvG Legendary cards are not played. And it is true, and unfortunate. Basically all the class GvG Legendary cards were ruined once Boom got put into every deck. They might not be the best cards, but if Boom wasn't around people would be playing them.

So we are just supposed to ignore almost all the GvG Legendary cards, and also a big portion of the Classic Legendary cards that also got killed by Boom?

Even a counter released in BRM won't really work. Already we are down to only 7 more neutral cards left to reveal so the chances we get a Boom counter are already pretty slim. And even if there is a 1 card Boom counter, it won't really help, cause it will either counter Boom just barely, like BGH, and then we just have another card that is in every deck, or it will be so overly strong and counter Boom so hard that Boom will no longer be run, but this card will be the new every deck card, or if the card only works against Boom then eventually it will just cycle 'round again and Boom will be back.

These are not solutions, just band aids, temporary fixes. It's like telling a person with a broken bone to just take pain meds all their life. We need to treat the problem, not the symptoms. And Boom is the problem.

Throwing a ton of Classic Legendary cards, and nearly all of GvG Legendary in the trash simply to maintain the Over Power of one badly designed card. There is no reason to not nerf Boom. And making more Booms is not a solution, it only leads to power creep and still doesn't fix the current problems that he has created.

oh please, the gvg legendaries (or the older ones) arent played BECAUSE THEY SUCK in the fast meta, its that simple, absolute majority of legendaries are too slow to use, when top ladder dogs are all aggro/tempo oriented decks, it has nothing to do with Boom. the control decks that sometimes see the play are STILL playing their staples like alexa, grom, jaraxxus, sylvanas or KT, almost nothing changed in that regard, just that rag was replaced in some decks by boom, because surprise surprise, rag does nothing against swarm of weenies on the board.

Quote from Mesmerizeer »

I thought the complain was that Dr. Boom makes other legendaries obsolete, and forces a BGH environment which further suppresses other legendaries...?

Yeah, no. That would actually require those legendaries to be playable in the first place (and the few that were played in some specific control decks before... are still played). and plenty of the new legs arent even 7+ attack cards hindered by the BGH meta, which should increase their popularity if they are good... which they are not, they usually just suck or dont do anything in fast meta

Quote from smilinmaniag »

That is the problem - you cant silence dr.boom - it is just vanilla 7/7. +bonus. That's why it is so stupid. Rag hits the same turn he played, but he attacks randomly, thalnos has reduced stats for his 2 mana cost, cairne stats are basically 4/5 for 6 - you are basically paying 2 mana for the effect, Alextraza sometines can't be played(you dnt want to reduce your hp and increase enemies), Loatheb is 5 mana for 5/5 - he sacrifices 1 stat for his effect 0(usually cards of the cost have joint stats of card cost * 2+1). and so on. Every card pays something for its effect. but not boom.

but.... everyone considers 7/7 for 7 as underbudget, considering the steady progression of stats for vanilla drops as 2xmana +1. 

And you mentioned Rag... and that he attacks randomly... but boom bots explode randomly, too. and for random damage. and not even immediately but a turn later and only once. Rag was the most complained about card for months since open beta and didnt get a nerf, I dont see why Boom should. and there are dozens of cards having extra free effects with proper stats. most of them class cards, but even neutrals, feugen/stalagg for example. 

As I see it, there are two reasons why people complain about Boom

Aggro players QQing that there is an expensive card, that can actually contest their board full of low cost minions and that they cant get rid of easily.

And some control players QQing they cant get a freebie 2 for 1 with BGH.

Frankly, easy, cheap and efficient removals are too common in this game, so Im glad we actually have a high cost neutral card, that is worth playing. With BGH around, We cant really expect 7+attack minions NOT to be slightly overbudget to couter their extra weakness if we want them to be playable at all.

Quote from linvega2 »

Quote from Kill_Dash_Nine »

Quote from Metzelmax »

Quote from Kill_Dash_Nine »

With BGH ruining the point of being able to play powerful legendary creatures, I agree they should nerf Dr. Boom and make him a 6/7 or even a 6/6. This way he can be out of range of BGH. All classes have some type a removal having a neutral removal is hurting this game.

This article explains why BGH is effect this game is a negative way.

http://bmkgaming.com/the-problem-of-big-game-hunter-ive-got-the-fun-in-my-sights/

Every fking body having dr. Boom is hurting this game. So I can have any form of OP card as a neutral for all classes, BUT the counter to it should really be only 1-2 classes that can deal with it. Otherwise its too unfair.

#logic.

How is it hurting the game? A lot of people run Sylvanas in their deck as well. I keep hearing people say that Dr. Boom is ruining the game or unbalanced but people rarely say why. Isn't the whole idea of a neutral card so that you can run it in any deck.

The idea of a neutral card is that it CAN be run by everyone , but depending on the specific deck, it has some advantages and some disadvantages compared to other cards and thus isn't actually run by everyone; This simply isn't true for Dr. Boom ; Running him is never a bad idea, in fact, a deck is generally worse of if it doesn't run him compared to when it does.

Nerfing BGH is also completely ridiculous. BGH is a tech card, it wasn't nearly as prevalent before Dr. Boom. BGH is the only reason Dr. Boom isn't completely and utterly dominating the game. Saying "nerf BGH because he is run by everyone" right now is like saying "nerf Harrison because he is run by everyone" in a meta where everyone is playing Paladin or Warrior.

but the same can be said about Sylvanas, she is very popular aswell and fits in plenty of aggro decks, epsecially since it often just stops enemy from playing big stuff until he deals with her and just like BGH has only one weakness. but unlike Boom, she can be comboed to ridiculous effect with some commonly run cards like PO

Quote from orangespire »

really, how can druid deal with boom?  They have no hard removal.

the same way you deal with boom when you dont draw BGH...

Quote from Metzelmax »

Quote from Kill_Dash_Nine »

With BGH ruining the point of being able to play powerful legendary creatures, I agree they should nerf Dr. Boom and make him a 6/7 or even a 6/6. This way he can be out of range of BGH. All classes have some type a removal having a neutral removal is hurting this game.

This article explains why BGH is effect this game is a negative way.

http://bmkgaming.com/the-problem-of-big-game-hunter-ive-got-the-fun-in-my-sights/

Every fking body having dr. Boom is hurting this game. So I can have any form of OP card as a neutral for all classes, BUT the counter to it should really be only 1-2 classes that can deal with it. Otherwise its too unfair.

#logic.

everyone can deal with boom, I dont see why only big cards absolutely need super hard counter like BGH, while we dont even have anti mech or stealth cards and the one antiDR card is complete junk...