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I absolutely agree with ManseEveard here...
I had a lot of games against Hunter where i go second and manage to coin out double Zombie Chow then Shielded Minibot. By the end of turn 2 the game was already over.
For classes that don't have a very strong early game minion or removal as a weapon, Zombie Chow is the best answer against aggro.
But in the end it's a card game so yes, randomness happen and you can't expect to always draw the perfect counter to any form of threat your opponent will play.
Luck is involved, whatever shape it takes. Sometimes you don't see any Undertaker in your starting hand for 5 games in a row and sometimes it's just here, waiting to steal the game for you because, by the same luck factor your opponent doesn't have a clean removal waiting for it in his starting hand and you have 3 Deathrattle minions in your hand as well.
And on some occasion you have Undertaker but no Deathrattle minions after your mulligan. The game is basically over before it even started... Is it more fair?
It's a 30 life point game you play, best of 1 game so you will loose some because of poor luck.
If it was a 40 or 50 life point game, decks of 40 cards with sideboard and best of 3 games then that would be a different story.
Devil's Advocate over, not the point of this topic anyway :p
Just a thought about the much wanted undertaker nerf i see on this site every 2 topics... Is it really required? I'm not trolling here, just asking.
Here's the way i see it. You play Hunter so basically you mulligan your starting hand heavily for it. You pack your deck with minions with Deathrattle to pump it up. You play a LOT of 1 mana minions who of course have very low stats. Most of the classes you play against are packing cards to counter it ASAP.
Druid has Wrath / Keeper of the Grove.
Mirror has Owl / Bow and obviously can "outundertaker" you.
Mage has Frostbolt / Mana Wyrm.
Priest has Shadow Word Pain. (at the very least lol)
Rogue has Backstab / Poison Blade.
Shaman has Earth shock / Rockbiter Weapon / Lightning Bolt.
Warlock has Darkbomb and can also "outundertaker" you.
Warrior has Fiery War Axe / Execute and a lot of other tricks.
Paladin has the hardest way to remove it i agree, Owl or maybe Aldor until you can go Pyro + Equality.
So everyone has ways to get him out of the board. Now if they nerf it and it no longer gains Life, every minion in game kills it right away. What is the point of the card anymore? You actually go on a "limited" gamble here when you start packing Clockwork Gnome and such. Once you get rid of the undertaker Clockwork and Leper are just terrible minions to have on the board or draw later on during the game. It's a nightmare to see Undertaker die fast because you know that the rest of your minions are very poor in term of sticky. The get killed right away and your chances on winning are now very low unless you get some nasty top decks like UTH / Kill Command and such.
My point is, in the end i believe that we already have many tools to get rid of Undertaker and that the problem is more about the Hunter Hero Power that put you on a clock rather than Undertaker.
Just a thought, playing a bit of Devil's Advocate here i guess. People will probably believe that i'm absolutely wrong lol. Anyway...
Diversity of the game won't stand any chance as long as everyone feel like it's super important to get to Legend ASAP. They will keep playing whatever has the highest win ratio, the fastest game speed and the lowest Dust cost. And once they get to Rank 5 and keep getting stopped by Warrior Control or any other deck during 3 weeks and prevent them to get to Legend they will cry about how P2W decks are just stupid...
Undertaker is just the tip of the iceberg. The real problem is probably more on the way they designed some hero power and gave too much power to fast aggro decks.
Just my 2 cents :p
I know...
To be honest i generally start the season as Priest and then i switch to something else once i hit Rank 8 or above.
The 8 Life is a game changer against Hunter. They have a hard time to Kill command you to death thanks to Healbot and it might give you enough time to go get that Lay on Hands. If you do, it's a win against Face Hunter!
Yeah Reynad often starts saying that something that beat him is very strong in the current meta, switches to it and then start loosing before reversing his previous statement lol... tbh i have the same issue with Priest. Everytime i play against it they thoughtsteal my best stuff, have the perfect opening or the right Shadow Word at the best possible time. I go mad, switch to Priest and just thoughtsteal crappy stuff and never see any Shadow word until turn 64!
Whatever kind of Pally deck you play, you will always have a tough time against Priest no matter what :/
I can't say anything about your comment in the Edit section, i never played WoW however the rest of your comment is absolutely accurate. In the end i would rather have a draw mechanic than a burst. Burst feel always stupid since it's not a reward for playing correctly, it's just a way to congratulate you because you managed to draw all your combo components. I recently lost a game against druid while i was at 24 life, he bursted me out with two copies of Shade of Naxx he dropped the previous turn then they went to 3/3 and he dropped Savage FON combo and that was it... I don't care about loosing but i care about the way i loose!
Like Mpfranke said you can die pretty fast when playing Paladin, Snowchugger can be a massive pain in the ass (and so it can be when you play Control Warrior because wasting a Shield Slam will have a toll on you later as i've often experienced) and the late game isn't necessarily in your favor either but given the current cards at our disposal there isn't much we can do. It's not a problem of the way you play or the way you deckbuild, it's pretty much a problem of what you have been given to deckbuild with, exactly as you pointed out.
That list from Xixo is very good but again it's a tournament deck, Paladin is very good in Paladin meta because you can pick it up exactly when you need it to defeat a specific deck that you're facing. Ladder is still too "diversified" since you will face both very low decks (control Warrior / Priest) to very fast deck (hello Stupid Hunter! / Mech Mage). Plus Handlock in the mix, you can't have a decklist that covers all this, you have no choice but to cover some and give up on the rest. Unfortunately Control Warrior doesn't have the same issue since his hero power helps him a lot against all type of decks and his cards synergize with that mechanic very well. I wish the Dudes are 2/2 instead of 1/1...
On the end game you can't rely on Tirion only to do the job, he will get smashed pretty badly or stolen) because everyone expect him. Boom, Ragnaros or even Stallag / Feugen can add a good pressure but again it's not as effective as Grommash or Antonidas.
I wouldn't expect that Blizzard will start buffing cards for us to become competitive. It doesn't look like it's in the way of thinking and we will have to wait for the next set to see what we get. TBH i wouldn't like to see a buff since buffing seems a bit dumb. I've read a topic recently demanding that Boom got nerfed or War Golem get buffed so people can start playing with a competitive War Golem to match a very big legendary card... wtf?!?
There might be the hope that Paladin is more effective once you've reached legend but it's sure a difficult climb with only Paladin all the way up there.
I'm back on the topic after a good Xmas break (happy holidays to all of you readers btw!)
Yes it's a hard time for Paladin since we didn't get much from GvG. Now we must accept that as a CCG there is always something on top and on the bottom of the food chain. It's a bit like for Rogue, they didn't get much from the expansion and the Gadgetzan nerf is making the Miracle build slow and with a lower % winrate. Can Rogue still win ? Yes. Can you make it to Legend with it? Yes. And so i believe that it's the same for Paladin.
Aggro is and will always be a strong archetype in this game. Paladin is likely to be a jack of all trade deck, you can do everything with it, super fast aggro, mid range, drag the game to the very late fatigue control but overall it will always be a little less effective than some other class more specified in one or the other of the game archetype.
I think that the best success you can have is still with a controlish version of Paladin, still with 2 Muster for Battle but only one Quartermaster (we all witnessed that people are clearing the Dudes ASAP the same way you clear beasts against Hunter) and trying to sideboard for the most played decks Hunter and handlock. Going for double BGH could be the answer for Handlock, double Healbot + Lay on Hands should shut down face Hunter.
I was hopping that the new GvG paladin Legendary would have Charge or some burst potential but we still have to build pressure overtime and with such a fast meta it's hard. At least Shielded Minibot and Zombie Chow helps a lot to secure the early game so that's already something.
About the Divine shield deck that appeared recently i'm not a huge fan tbh. Most of the time i see 2 or 3 divine shield on the board, they drop one Blood Knight and as soon as the Blood knight get silenced / removed you simply loose the upper hand you had with the Divine Shield.
In the end, we don't do Control like the best, we don't do Aggro like the best but we can adjust easily. We can switch to face or control as the situation demands it which can't be done when you play face hunter for example. (btw the more i tried Face Hunter the more i see how it's luck dependant... The first grain of sand in the machinery make you loose right away).
And there's still hope that the next adventure / set will give us something really cool!
If you want some good early game synergy with SOJ and Knife Juggler i would strongly recommend using a second Muster for Battle.
Even if you don't get extra value from Juggler or SOJ you will flood the board early game to make sure that there won't be any multiple ennemies on the board by the time you get to the mid range part which will help you decide if you want to go face or dispatch a single target.
If you want an alternative to Cairne cheaper than Dr Boom you can give a try with Piloted Sky Golem.
Yeah i think that was pretty much something like that.
During both games i was like "how can you survive to aggro decks?!?" but it went perfectly to beat me flat out both games.
I also ran into some Priests running Lightbomb... I wasn't too pleased by that either.
It looks like more people are now teching against heavy control decks rather than just the usual Zoo / face Hunter and co.
For what it's worth just a quick story...
Got a Warrior quest as Daily so i pick up my control warrior and move along... I face 2 paladin decks in a row, both Control paladin and they were quite prepared to face Warrior lol! They were running 2 humility / Kodo combos, BGH, Harrison Jones, Tirion, Ragnaros and Ysera with Holy Light, 2 Guardian of Kings and Lay on Hands for the healing section.
Needless to say i as out of threat long before i could think of and Ysera won the game for them both times!
So like i mentionned in a previous post, i believe that Control Paladin is the perfect counter to Control Warrior ;)
Now i don't know how they go when they play against Zoo or Face Hunter...
Oh i'm not saying it sucks, just that the class didn't received any major help from GvG and that it has more issues after GvG than before i think.
Every class is Legendary material, given that you play the right way, have a good enough number of matches and more good MU than bad :p
That's why i only run one Quartermaster in the deck, 2 is way too much. Because to get value from it you need to have 3 Dudes on the board ready to attack and then drop Quartermaster to start getting value. Right now people clear your Dudes the same way you clear Beast when you play against Hunter.
One good thing about Paladin is that most people are not used to play against it so they generally end up making mistakes because of that. Unfortunately, that's not enough to help us be a big threat on the ladder right now. I still believe that it's a very good counter to Control Warrior but you need some consistent opening hands in every game to be sure you won't get swiped out in 5 turns. It's a shame we don't have a decent burst combo like Druid has FoN + Savage Roar, that would really help to steal games.
Even if Tirion gets silenced he's still a good body to have around. Now with GvG out people have less Meta slots in their deck so not everyone is running Ironbeak Owl just like it used to be before GvG. Eventually, if you keep getting your Tirion Silenced or easily removed this might be the opportunity to give Bolvar a shot. I still don't like him but what if you can play him turn 12 or so? If all your other threats are getting dealt with, dropping Bolvar as as 12 or more minion might be the answer...
About crafting order you have to ask yourself this : Is Paladin going to be one of the classes you play very very often? If it is then go for Tirion right away as he is (with Grommash) the best Class Legendary in the game. If not, then craft Dr Boom. It's a neutral card so you will use it more often AND it's one of the top 5 currently neutral legendary in the game so you will not regret your Dust!
Exactly. The thing is that you play Lay on Hands because it's the best card draw available for Paladin right now. It heals you at the same time so it's a double effect but make it a 8 mana card. Most of the times you play LoH because you need to refill your hand and as a bonus you get healed so you don't feel too miserable having to waste your entire turn to draw 3 cards (compared to Warlock Hero power or simply Arcane Intellect you feel ripped off...)
If there was a cheaper way to draw cards and stronger on board than Cult Master i would drop LoH gladly but right now that's all Blizzard gave Paladin.
But i'm also running one Antique Healbot, just to be sure to get out of the burst range Hunter can have so i can drag them into the long game and even then it's not a guaranteed win since their hero power mostly laugh about long games, they will drop your life every single turn as you all know.
Overall, i think that the best solution is to go for value / sticky minions with the addition of our usual AOE/ Removals and that's it. Piloted Shredder and Sky Golem are very good ways to clear medium / big threats without relying on combo cards like Humility / Kodo. Bomb lobber always get you a kill and give you some board presence in the exact same way. Dr Boom also increases your ability to clear a couple of minions still crowding the board. Most of the time you can deal with a single target, the problem really starts when you face multiple threats...