if they ever get too out of hand they will be nerfed hopefully.
Like Warlock and Hysteria? Got it.
Note Tickatus wasn't nerfed despite being OP
Because you say so?
So nerfs should be based on feelings?
Neither were some other OP warlock tools.
Name them please.
I look at individual cards and I see Warlock ones are considerably bonkers, probably most OP class pound for pound.
Yes, because your feelings >> data. Got it.
if you buffed it to overcome those then there would be nothing to stop it, it would be T0.
Psss... those "nothing" are called nerfs, but don't tell anyone!
That is my read of the situation and seemingly Blizzard agrees.
Exactly, same with Shaman. They keep him in trash tier, because he might get OP at some point. True story! Everyone knows, that It's the best way to balance any multiplayer game, just make some classes dead weak and the job is done.
the point of that is not that Warlock, esp. control Warlock, deserves buffs but other classes deserve nerfs, and for Blizz to reverse the gear on powercreeping cards. Just compare classic cards and the ones from last 1-2 years, it's crazy.
Honestly? I don't care how they do it, I just want Warlock to be viable, with decent win rates against most meta decks, that's all.
I agree with PetiteMouche (I think) that Warlock is ridiculously strong,
And how can you tell that? Not by the numbers (data) of course, because they say otherwise (since almost everything beats Control Warlock now and he wasn't any better for years), so maybe by your "personal feelings"? I mean, why not, but is it a proper way to evaluate card / class power level?
You know what? Let's nerf Deathrattle Demon Hunter now! Why? Because it's obviously ridiculously strong deck. I mean sure, no data can actaully prove this (since it's T4 deck with terrible matchups against almost everything), but I have this impression (feeling?) that it's too strong.
Eventually the meta will shift and Warlock will have its day.
Sure, I've been hearing that for 3 years.
If we did what you want and just buffed it buffed it buffed it until it broke to the top it would be absolutely insane because then it would be strong despite the meta and that would make it broken on a level we haven't seen maybe ever.
You overinterpret my words because I've never said anything like that. I want Control Warlock to be viable meta deck (now, not within next 5 years), nothing more, nothing less. How? Either by buffing him (or giving him new cards), either by nerfing everything else, I don't really care.
Consider all the ridiculous tools available to Warlock, soul shard cards, corrupt cards (including hated Tickatus), Jaraxxus and a ton of others. Warlock has so many potentially bonkers cards is hard to list them all.
If it can't win with those then it is not warlock that is weak but everything else that is nuts. Powercreep really fucked this game hard since I left.
You can't evaluate card's strength in the vacuum, it always has to be related to other cards in the game. So if the card is not good enough, compared to other cards, then it's not good at all.
It's the same thing with poverty and wealth. What makes you rich is not how much money you have in your pocket, but how many goods you can buy with the money you have (and that depends on how much money other people have, that's how inflation works).
So having a card like this: Start of Game: Set your hero's health to 60, you might think: wow, this is crazy! But if all other classes have a similar card, which sets hero's health to 250 instead, then it's not that good anymore, but rather underwhelming.
That's why Warlock's power on paper doesn't matter. It only matters how he copes with other classes in any given meta.
Definitely a great card. I just question whether it's really needed in those matchups. You're not using it to pressure; you're using it to heal, remove, or force trades generally. There are other cards than can serve a similar function. And with the Crabrider nerf, I think you'll generally have an easier time removing early on and have less trouble stabilizing late game.
I was using it mostly for tempo and to take away opponent from my face for turn or two. Sometimes to heal myself, corrupt Tickatus or remove threats from the board. Sadly, I don't see any replacement for this card available for Warlock. And I wouldn't say I that removing early stuff is now easier for me. One more mana on Hysteria means that I often can't trigger Yogg and use it on the same turn, which usually translates into additional 6-8 (or more) face damage. Also playing against Face Hunter and Token Druid feels more difficult now, only Rush Warrior seems relatively the same to me. Those are my first impressions of post-nerf Warlock, but I'm not expecting they will get any better.
I know you are just trolling me at this point, and I know you agree with most things I said, and I know you never considered Control warlock a bad deck, because you played it (with success), and nobody plays bad decks on purpose, and nobody loses their shit when a bad deck gets the tiniest nerf.
Nah, I'm just amused at how much you deny reality, making arguments out of thin air and basing them on "because I say so".
Control Warlock wasn't T1 deck since Cube Lock... 3 years ago. So much for your argument about "good deck in the wrong meta".
Out of curiosity, which matchups does Kazakus help you in as a Warlock?
It was great in all tempo matchups. Playing like 2x 5/5 with taunt, divine shield, lifesteal or stealth was huge, too much for Paladin, Hunter or Warrior to just ignire and go face. You could also have poison + damage (for instant mass removal), lifesteal + damage (for instant heal), freeze (for stale), buff for your other minions (great with taunts on board), spell damage (awesome with removals) or even card draw. Just an overall outstanding card.
What do you mean nothing ? You really believe this deck is unplayable without Kazakus and that not a single card in the game is good enough to take its place ?
Exactly. Kazakus gives you tempo, value and flexibility at the same time and there's no other card like that in Warlock's arsenal.
There are other proactive cards you know.
Nothing that Control Warlock has access to, unfortunately.
Maybe not "reliable" but they have tons of healing with Drain Soul, up to 20 soul fragments, Blood Shard Bristleback, Siphon Soul, and armor from Jaraxxus, really it's more healing than most non-priest control decks I've seen in 8 years.
Reliability beats quantity. it doesn't matter that you have 10+ fragments in your deck, when you also have 8 health and you're about to die next turn, because RNG wasn't on your side. Blademaster Samuro and Apotheosis is pro-active and reliable healing source (which can give you up to 24 HP and clear the board at the same time), fragments are not.
No swing turn and tempo you say ? Malicia that generates a full rushing board on turn 7 ?
It's single, conditional card. Pretty often you can't even play it, because it would be like plain 5/5 or with 1 soul for 7 mana - terrible tempo loss and almost no impact on the board.
Nether + Strongman on turn 8 ? Yshaarj + disaster + strongman on turn 10 ?
Strongman, Y'shaarj and Cascading Disaster are awfully slow, so I removed them in favor of Kazakus. That was the one of the biggest reasons why my Kazakus Warlock was so good against tempo and aggro decks. Lower mana curve, less dead draws, more tempo.
Nether + Jaraxxus on turn 10 ?
Jaraxxus for 2 mana?
These might not be the craziest swings but they are extremely consistent and reliable.
They are not, but you clearly don't play Control Warlock so you have no idea about that.
And what card exactly is overcosted in that deck ? Twisting nether maybe a tiny bit slow in today's power level ?
Warlock's first hard removal - Siphon Soul costs 5 mana. It's much too slow nowadays and that's exactly why Assassinate haven't seen play for years now, even after it was buffed to 4 mana. Heal for 3 means nothing, because it's way better to kill threat on turn 2-3 (like Priest), than get meaningless 3 HP on turn 5. And if you want to deal with wide boards tougher than 3 HP, then your only option is Twisting for 8 mana, or Hysteria... if you are lucky with RNG. In the past Warlock used to have Defile, Dark Skies and Plague of Flames (cheap, efficient removals), but now he didn't get any replacement.
say this deck is weak and it sucks is a huge overreaction to me, I think this is one of the best and most fleshed out control decks I've ever seen
So why it's considered T3/T4 deck by Vicious Syndicate, Tempo Storm or HS Replays and has win rate below 47%?
Why does it always come down to this when I'm in an argument with someone?
Because you're trying to deny reality. The numbers don't lie and no player in the world (out of several million) has managed to build an effective, at least T2 Control Warlock deck. To a sane person, this is an obvious argument that proves the weakness of the class and the archetype itself... but not for you. That's why.
Because the card was OP in whatever data was collected. Doesn't matter if the deck is T1 or T467, I thought this was clear by now.
They almost never nerf cards based on community feelings. They did it with Barnes and a couple other cards, but most of the time they have data strongly indicating that something is wrong with a particular card. Like the watch post nerfs, it was a surprise to most of us, but they didn't nerf these at random, they were probably warping the meta way too much.
As I said, I'm aware that 4 mana cost is more fair for this card... BUT WHY NOW?! We are weeks away from the mini-expansion, don't control players have the right to have fun during this time? T3/T4 decks are too much for us?
Ok then don't replace hysteria, replace kazakus, what's wrong with that ?
And as I already said, Priest will do this, reverting to his retro-active deck with Samuro and Xyrella. Warlock though can do nothing about it, he just lacks strong replacements.
And for warlock I think it's only fair that they can't have hysteria+kazakus+tickatus+jaraxxus+nether+soul fragments package+corrupt package+single target removals+whatever else in the same deck. They don't have to do everything, and if your control deck is so strong that it plays like a tempo deck, maybe there's something wrong.
This shows you have literally zero idea about Warlock and why he sucks right now. His control package is simply too weak, overcosted and 100% reactive, with no reliable healing, almost no tempo, and no cards to make significant swing turns. Kazakus fixed that issue to some extent and that's why he was soo good in Warlock.
It is clear to me that you are only upset because they nerfed a deck you were playing, not because you feel this is bad for the game.
I'm upset, because I don't understand why Blizzard nerfed card from 8th and 9th class in standard, played in T3/T4 decks. As a control player, I have no other choice (even though I don't really like Priest's playstyle) but they are taking away even that.
What is stopping your from replacing Hysteria with a card that doesn't cost 4 mana ?
Meta. 3-4 mana mass removal is too strong to ignore with Paladin, Hunter and Warrior around. Kazakus alone cannot compensate for it.
Naming those decks "kazakus decks" seems a bit of a stretch anyway, it's just one card, and it's not a win condition, it's not essential to the game plan.
Not a win condition, but a staple for entire deck and one of the key cards in some matchups.
Like seriously before the nerf you would call this deck Tickatus warlock or Control warlock like everyone else.
Because Kazakus Warlock wasn't official deck, yet some people (myself incuded) played it with very good results (my last record before the nerf was 31/6 vs Paladin, 16/7 vs Hunter and 11/1 vs Warrior in european Diamond 5 floor).
I think you don't get it. Warlock wasn't the target. Priest wasn't the target. Hysteria was the target.
No, you just took fragment of my comment out of context. Read the whole thing and you'll see that I considered both options, treating both Priest and Warlock as potential nerf targets.
There was nothing wrong with those decks as a whole, it's just Hysteria that was a little bit too strong. But they are not going to completely destroy Hysteria and make it 5 mana just so you can have specifically Kazakus and hysteria in your deck.
And what makes you think I wanted Hysteria to cost 5 mana (besides your imagination)?
I am talking about Mt results, not the random ladder matches or the opinions of content creators like Kibler
Mt has nothing to do with real meta-gameplay and Kibler is not just "random content creator", he's a veteran of card games, lead designer of World of Warcraft Trading Card Game and designer of many other card games. In short, he knows the stuff.
They nerfed hysteria because Control Priest is the best performing deck and the second most popular after the mage (based on Mt's results), Control warlock was just unlucky. Control warlock was already a weak deck (probably the worst one) and now is pretty much hopeless. With those buffs, they try to bring up zoo by I don't think they are enough.
Priest is "the best performing deck"? I don't think so. He is doing OK in higher ranks with some very favorable matchups (mostly against aggro and tempo decks like Face Hunter or Rush Warrior), but he also has couple awful ones like Control Warlock, NM Mage, Poison Rogue or OTK Demon Hunter.
At some point, Priest players thought: "Hey, if the deck is good against aggro and tempo anyway, why don't we just cut some overkill control cards and replace them with somthing to improve our worse matchups?". This is how Kazakus Priest was born, deck which much better matchups against Mage or Rogue (because of more pro-active and tempo oriented nature of the deck - Kibler explained that in his videos several times).
Now this archetype is dead though, so Priest will have to revert to his retro-active "heal and remove" style deck. He will continue stomping on aggro decks and losing hopelessly against others... Was that the goal of this change? To push control back to T3/T4?
Honestly, I don't understand the idea behind nerfing this card right now. I agree that in the vacuum it was probably undercosted and 4 mana is much more fair for such powerful effect, but since we're not in the vacuum... what was the real purpose of doing this now?
Kazakus Priest and Kazakus Warlock (aka best performing and pro-active control decks) are dead. Regular retro-active Priest won't even feel the difference, as his good and bad matchups will remain largely the same. Regular Control Warlock will be even weaker in aggro and tempo matchups, where he was terrible already (+1 mana is huge deal for him), but pretty much the same in control matchups.
So what were they trying to achieve here?
If they wanted to get rid of Control Warlock from the meta completely, all they had to do was to kill Tickatus (by making him 8 mana or something). Why also harm Priest if he wasn't the target? But if they wanted to nerf Priest, they should have weakened his card generation or healing, because that's what makes him endure the meta so well. Why hit Warlock in that case as well?