But I suppose the fact remains, that you can't play high cost cards unless you survive long enough to do so, and unless you know your opponents will always try to out-greed you, you have to build your deck with tools to try and fight aggro, too.
...So I ask, what is the problem with mana cheating? How else could you make a card worthwhile at high cost?
The problem with mana cheating is that it limits the design space on high cost cards. If mana cheating were limited then the power level of high cost cards could be buffed. If you played Big Warrior with Commencement you know that it isn't the greatest feeling in the world to spend 10 mana to play Scrapyard Colossus only for it to be quickly removed by a lower cost removal.
Scrapyard Colossus is one of the best examples of a minion worth 10 mana actually because it have a sticky element to it. N'Zoth, God of the Deep and Y'Shaarj, the Defiler are strong high cost cards but they require setup so mana cheating them isn't always ideal
Yes, you have a reason when you want to play value game or a control deck. And you can play it right away now, nobody will stops you. And yes, you can win too unless you are very bad at the game or afk in first two turns when handling aggro.. Because that decks exist, having lower than 50% winrate doesnt means the deck can't win at all, it just means it's bad for laddering.
The title is too much hyperbolic and exaggerated.
Okay, can I ask is winning more important than having fun for you?
I cave in and played aggro myself this past day and honestly I just feel like a bully. Sure I win but there is not much enjoyment or fun for me.
I don’t know how my question title is exaggerated but you didn’t really give me any answers.
Okay since the topic of winning and “skills” brought up a lot. Do you feel like you are making calculated decisions when to hold or play cards? Or do you just play cards as you draw them? Shouldn’t aggro decks have that level of decision making too?
Fair enough, but it still different topics than what you said 'any reason to play 4+ cost cards?'. It's too hyperbolic, and not just my tastes. Like everyone who answer before me, the answer for that question is a simple Yes. The only way you didn't accept the 'yes' as the answer is because you actually want to discuss other things than the 4+ cost cards.
So makes this clear for us.. what is the thing that you actually want to discussed here? It's not about the 4+ cards, right?
No, I still want to discuss the power level of 4+ mana cost cards over playing aggro deck with cards mostly 4 mana or less.
I just gave you bunch of other questions because you didn’t answer my initial question. But, I see you didn’t answer those either so now am wondering if I should just ignore you all together because you are not discussing any of the topics I want to discuss and might even trying to shut me up for some unknown reason.
Yes, you have a reason when you want to play value game or a control deck. And you can play it right away now, nobody will stops you. And yes, you can win too unless you are very bad at the game or afk in first two turns when handling aggro.. Because that decks exist, having lower than 50% winrate doesnt means the deck can't win at all, it just means it's bad for laddering.
The title is too much hyperbolic and exaggerated.
Okay, can I ask is winning more important than having fun for you?
I cave in and played aggro myself this past day and honestly I just feel like a bully. Sure I win but there is not much enjoyment or fun for me.
I don’t know how my question title is exaggerated but you didn’t really give me any answers.
Okay since the topic of winning and “skills” brought up a lot. Do you feel like you are making calculated decisions when to hold or play cards? Or do you just play cards as you draw them? Shouldn’t aggro decks have that level of decision making too?
Its much much harder to make great high cost cards. Its way easier to make great cheap ones cuz their impact doesnt have to be game-ending for them to be playable. If I spend 7+ mana on a single card its impact needs to at least have the potential of winning me the game when played, thats VERY hard to balance. The only ways Team 5 have tried to answer this problem is by:
-Make high cost stuff less powerful but allowing you to cheat it out for less mana;
-Force you to build your deck around that card to bring out its game-ending power (making the whole deck less efficient);
-Force you to play specific cards first before you can end the game with that high cost card (making your draws less efficient);
Aggro doesnt have to care about any of that shit, its efficiency at its best, you draw it you play it, you get great benefit for its cost, its all peachy.
I don't completely agree. First of all, Why is it acceptable that bunch of low cost cards to be game ending by turn 4 or 5 but a 7+ single card shouldn't be a game ending (for aggro specifically)? Second, the effect of 7+ mana cost cards doesn't have to be game ending but at least worth the mana you are spending. It is often taunt or AoE clear what you are looking for but rarely if any a card exist that give both. Meanwhile aggro still have access to direct damage, destroy/sap and card draw.
Dude, if you don’t want to be in this thread then don’t come and use comments like “salt” and “Git Gud”. Just don’t comment at all. Paladins can discount their librams. I mentioned this already. I already argued that the only reason you’d make your deck mana curve higher is for the fact that you can cheat mana. If your class/deck can’t cheat mana then you can’t compete against aggro and even have to play aggro yourself.
It's interesting how you casually stroll past the fact that four of the most important cards in this midrange deck cost 5 or more and cannot be discounted. It's obvious to me that you're not looking for a discussion. You want to vent your frustration and only read supportive comments. Hence, salt thread.
If you are rude from the beginning then why should I continue talking to you? You already convinced me that you are a person not worth talking to. Bye
There is a garbage dump also but you don’t see me telling you to live there.
Aggro balance patches rarely address the issues with high cost cards. Its either aggro or mana cheat. High cost cards with no mana cheat are basically dead cards unless the meta is slow as f***
I don't want to waste time doing research for this nonsense thread so i will just speak of my own personal experience.
This month i hit legend (after a long time) by playing Pure Paladin. My list ran four 5-drops and two 7-drops that cannot be discounted, plus another two 5-drops, two 6-drops and two 9-drops that can conditionally cost less.
To be fair, this was before Nitroboost Poison got released, but once that card gets nerfed we will be back to a healthy meta.
Dude, if you don’t want to be in this thread then don’t come and use comments like “salt” and “Git Gud”. Just don’t comment at all. Paladins can discount their librams. I mentioned this already. I already argued that the only reason you’d make your deck mana curve higher is for the fact that you can cheat mana. If your class/deck can’t cheat mana then you can’t compete against aggro and even have to play aggro yourself.
Everytime the meta is aggro-oriented we get a dozen articles like this, until a balance patch happens and you look for new things to blame for your inability to climb. Git Gud.
There is a garbage dump also but you don’t see me telling you to live there.
Aggro balance patches rarely address the issues with high cost cards. Its either aggro or mana cheat. High cost cards with no mana cheat are basically dead cards unless the meta is slow as f***
The only 5+ mana cards that worth putting in your standard deck usually are the ones that can be cheated or is in themselves cheat mana. You get Librams that gets discounted, Skull of Gul'dan that discount a potential 9 mana and Jandice Barov that potentially cheats out two 5 mana minions as examples.
I don't understand why time and time again does this game favor aggro decks. Aggro decks are cheap to craft and they have a low mana curve so over the course of many games you rarely have a turn where you don't have anything to play on turn 1, 2 and 3. Every match I play control vs aggro I keep contemplating why aren't I playing a cheap aggro deck while I have all of my early game cards at the bottom while my health is at 10 if not 0 by turn 4.
There are more issues with high cost cards, specifically minions that cost 7+. Aside from needing 7+ mana (basically you get to play one card at a time at this point) they can be dealt with by cheap answers. Again I ask myself why would I play control, barely survive until turn 7-10 then my 7+ minion gets easily dealt by a 2 mana Sap, Freezing Trap or worse like 3 of my +7 minions get dealt by a 3 mana Blade Dance.
This brings me to my discussion point. Either aggro cards need to be seriously toned down or high cost cards (specifically minions) gets a huge buff that makes them actually worth spending all that mana on.
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The problem with mana cheating is that it limits the design space on high cost cards. If mana cheating were limited then the power level of high cost cards could be buffed. If you played Big Warrior with Commencement you know that it isn't the greatest feeling in the world to spend 10 mana to play Scrapyard Colossus only for it to be quickly removed by a lower cost removal.
Scrapyard Colossus is one of the best examples of a minion worth 10 mana actually because it have a sticky element to it. N'Zoth, God of the Deep and Y'Shaarj, the Defiler are strong high cost cards but they require setup so mana cheating them isn't always ideal
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You could have easily brought the deck to my attention but not only you ignored to read my post you had to be rude about your writing your reply.
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No, I still want to discuss the power level of 4+ mana cost cards over playing aggro deck with cards mostly 4 mana or less.
I just gave you bunch of other questions because you didn’t answer my initial question. But, I see you didn’t answer those either so now am wondering if I should just ignore you all together because you are not discussing any of the topics I want to discuss and might even trying to shut me up for some unknown reason.
Sign Here
Okay, can I ask is winning more important than having fun for you?
I cave in and played aggro myself this past day and honestly I just feel like a bully. Sure I win but there is not much enjoyment or fun for me.
I don’t know how my question title is exaggerated but you didn’t really give me any answers.
Okay since the topic of winning and “skills” brought up a lot. Do you feel like you are making calculated decisions when to hold or play cards? Or do you just play cards as you draw them? Shouldn’t aggro decks have that level of decision making too?
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I don't completely agree. First of all, Why is it acceptable that bunch of low cost cards to be game ending by turn 4 or 5 but a 7+ single card shouldn't be a game ending (for aggro specifically)? Second, the effect of 7+ mana cost cards doesn't have to be game ending but at least worth the mana you are spending. It is often taunt or AoE clear what you are looking for but rarely if any a card exist that give both. Meanwhile aggro still have access to direct damage, destroy/sap and card draw.
Sign Here
If you are rude from the beginning then why should I continue talking to you? You already convinced me that you are a person not worth talking to. Bye
Sign Here
Dude, if you don’t want to be in this thread then don’t come and use comments like “salt” and “Git Gud”. Just don’t comment at all.
Paladins can discount their librams. I mentioned this already. I already argued that the only reason you’d make your deck mana curve higher is for the fact that you can cheat mana. If your class/deck can’t cheat mana then you can’t compete against aggro and even have to play aggro yourself.
Sign Here
There is a garbage dump also but you don’t see me telling you to live there.
Aggro balance patches rarely address the issues with high cost cards. Its either aggro or mana cheat. High cost cards with no mana cheat are basically dead cards unless the meta is slow as f***
Sign Here
The only 5+ mana cards that worth putting in your standard deck usually are the ones that can be cheated or is in themselves cheat mana. You get Librams that gets discounted, Skull of Gul'dan that discount a potential 9 mana and Jandice Barov that potentially cheats out two 5 mana minions as examples.
I don't understand why time and time again does this game favor aggro decks. Aggro decks are cheap to craft and they have a low mana curve so over the course of many games you rarely have a turn where you don't have anything to play on turn 1, 2 and 3. Every match I play control vs aggro I keep contemplating why aren't I playing a cheap aggro deck while I have all of my early game cards at the bottom while my health is at 10 if not 0 by turn 4.
There are more issues with high cost cards, specifically minions that cost 7+. Aside from needing 7+ mana (basically you get to play one card at a time at this point) they can be dealt with by cheap answers. Again I ask myself why would I play control, barely survive until turn 7-10 then my 7+ minion gets easily dealt by a 2 mana Sap, Freezing Trap or worse like 3 of my +7 minions get dealt by a 3 mana Blade Dance.
This brings me to my discussion point. Either aggro cards need to be seriously toned down or high cost cards (specifically minions) gets a huge buff that makes them actually worth spending all that mana on.
Sign Here