I am not sure if you are not comprehending my post or are just being willfully obtuse. By the general ability to communicate you show, I will assume the latter. But I will try to speak simply in case it is the former.
P2P already has the advantage of fielding pretty much any deck they want. This is already a huge competitive advantage, if as a spender you want more of an advantage than that.....it just makes me kinda sad for you, F2p has to be very careful about what they craft as metas shift frequently with patches. Reaching legend is not always a choice for fun, I was quite happy for years getting to rank 5 to claim the top rewards for the month, only getting to legend a few times just to make sure I could. When blizzard put pressure on f2p to grind legend by moving the monthly rewards, that is when fielding a legend capable deck every month became more important because those free rewards that you can grind are immensely important for a f2p player to keep pace in this game.
One thing about this game is that it punishes playing the same deck over and over. Whether you choose to believe it is an algorithim that is countering your deck on purpose or you are just unlucky that your pocket meta has shifted such that you run only into counter decks who get nut draws for quite a while, I am not here to engage in that debate this time. But I will assert that you need more than one legend capable deck to make legend each month consistently. Opening 80-100 packs on release enables me to do that, opening 40 -50 packs on release does not.
You seem disingenous in your arguments in that on the one hand you state we don't know if gold is going to be choked in the new system for f2p and then on the other hand you state that it is right and good that gold should be choked for f2p because those paying customers deserve their bought and paid for advantage.
The reason people complain about this is because Blizzard is breaking the fundamental deal they made with players up front. Which is that a f2p is able to compete on ladder, they now seem to be moving the goalposts so that this will no longer be possible. If blizzard had built this game that way up front, then many of us would have skipped this game entirely, no harm no foul. Let the p2w whales have their pretty colors and elaborate slot machine that rewards them for spending and maybe code some realistic bots so they can feel as if they have skillfully won a game.
The point of posts such as mine is to point the problem with this approach out before it is implemented. Someone in the forum posted that blizzard has already increased the amount of gold in response to the negative feedback they received on the initial survey. I dunno if this is true, I hope it is. But my hope is that some people at blizzard have enough vision to understand that if they kill the f2p players they will watch their whales leave them and be left with a dead game. It has happened time and time again in f2p/p2w games, and seems to be happening here as blizzard seems to be milking them for even more cash while taking away the viability of f2p in the hopes of converting some of them to paying customers. That is running a business for the quarterly profit margin rather than the long term health of the game.
also: if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, has feathers like a duck....it is prolly a duck
Apparently reading comprehension is not your strong suit. My first post in this thread told you what I think the p2p advantage is: more dust, better cards. By definition, that means I can field a broader array of decks. (I cannot, as you say, "field pretty much any deck I want." Certainly not at what I spend per year.) Nowhere do I suggest that should change. I think the XP bonus that appears to be coming in the future is probably fair, depending on the details. Quite honestly, I don't know what other advantage would even exist. There certainly should not be a game play advantage (i.e. better RNG, extra mulligan, etc.). Nor is anyone here advocating such an advantage. If you think the current advantage is unfair, then I'm sad for you.
Similarly, NOWHERE did I say it was "right and good that gold should be choked for f2p." That's an absolute, bald-faced lie. Period. And the fact that you're deliberately misrepresenting me speaks volumes about your intellectual dishonesty. In fact, if you actually read my posts, you'd see that my view is that the best way for f2p to compete with p2p is by playing a lot more, thereby earning the gold they need to buy packs, get dust, etc.
The entire rest of your rant is, quite frankly, based on complete ignorance and misinformation. Contrary to your claims, Blizzard has not "given up on the gold economy," as one can clearly see in the reddit discussion (not sure we're allowed to post links to outside websites, but the thread is called "Reward Track/ Tavern Pass rewards by level" and came out on reddit a few days ago). Since we'll continue to earn gold, it's reasonable to assume that we'll still be able to buy packs with it. You're assuming, based on the survey, that there will be a cap on gold and that you will, therefore, not be able to buy more than 40-50 packs on release day. That's almost certainly NOT true, given that we're going to earn 150 for each level we reach beyond 50. Why would Blizzard make that your final reward if it intended to cap your gold earnings? It makes zero logical sense. But then you didn't think about that, did you, sport? Yeah, didn't think so.
As several people have said to you already (and you seem to have conveniently ignored), we don't know the details of the economy yet. But has that stopped you from spouting off a bunch of ignorant nonsense? Of course not. Why bother thinking when you can just spew bile?
I wonder why the details are not there yet. Especially the info on how much play to earn max gold rewards as f2p, vs how much play to earn maximum gold rewards as a p2p.
Blizzard intentionally hides key pieces of information so that people cannot analyze the changes properly. All so that their representatives can shout, how can you be critical when you don't know the details?
If I am wrong about the gold economy and if I am still able to buy 100 packs on release day come the first expansion of 2021 as a f2p, then I will come back and say that I was wrong and that blizzard did not destroy the f2p ability to enjoy a release. But if I am capped at say 40 - 50 packs in an expansion loaded with even more necessary cards to compete, I will be back to remind you.....unless of course I am banned for not being positive enough about the opportunities blizzard gives me to give them money.
also, nice to know that sherm ain't dead.....have a good one.
I am not sure if you are not comprehending my post or are just being willfully obtuse. By the general ability to communicate you show, I will assume the latter. But I will try to speak simply in case it is the former.
P2P already has the advantage of fielding pretty much any deck they want. This is already a huge competitive advantage, if as a spender you want more of an advantage than that.....it just makes me kinda sad for you, F2p has to be very careful about what they craft as metas shift frequently with patches. Reaching legend is not always a choice for fun, I was quite happy for years getting to rank 5 to claim the top rewards for the month, only getting to legend a few times just to make sure I could. When blizzard put pressure on f2p to grind legend by moving the monthly rewards, that is when fielding a legend capable deck every month became more important because those free rewards that you can grind are immensely important for a f2p player to keep pace in this game.
One thing about this game is that it punishes playing the same deck over and over. Whether you choose to believe it is an algorithim that is countering your deck on purpose or you are just unlucky that your pocket meta has shifted such that you run only into counter decks who get nut draws for quite a while, I am not here to engage in that debate this time. But I will assert that you need more than one legend capable deck to make legend each month consistently. Opening 80-100 packs on release enables me to do that, opening 40 -50 packs on release does not.
You seem disingenous in your arguments in that on the one hand you state we don't know if gold is going to be choked in the new system for f2p and then on the other hand you state that it is right and good that gold should be choked for f2p because those paying customers deserve their bought and paid for advantage.
The reason people complain about this is because Blizzard is breaking the fundamental deal they made with players up front. Which is that a f2p is able to compete on ladder, they now seem to be moving the goalposts so that this will no longer be possible. If blizzard had built this game that way up front, then many of us would have skipped this game entirely, no harm no foul. Let the p2w whales have their pretty colors and elaborate slot machine that rewards them for spending and maybe code some realistic bots so they can feel as if they have skillfully won a game.
The point of posts such as mine is to point the problem with this approach out before it is implemented. Someone in the forum posted that blizzard has already increased the amount of gold in response to the negative feedback they received on the initial survey. I dunno if this is true, I hope it is. But my hope is that some people at blizzard have enough vision to understand that if they kill the f2p players they will watch their whales leave them and be left with a dead game. It has happened time and time again in f2p/p2w games, and seems to be happening here as blizzard seems to be milking them for even more cash while taking away the viability of f2p in the hopes of converting some of them to paying customers. That is running a business for the quarterly profit margin rather than the long term health of the game.
also: if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, has feathers like a duck....it is prolly a duck
I see you in this forum on occasion playing the part of a paying customer who thinks paying a is a great idea. You claim that paying customers should have a competitive advantage over non paying customers. And they do, they always have had that advantage. They have more cards, more dust, more resources to craft. They also got other rewards, skins, gold cards, early access etc.
But it seems to bother you that a lowly free to play can still consistently make legend and open 100 or so packs on release day. It seems that you and blizzard have decided that this is not right, that a free to play should not be able to compete with the spenders or enjoy a release of a new expansion. That a player should have to pay for that experience.
This is when the mask comes off and blizzard drops all pretense of this being a game. It is a gamelike experience designed to stimulate spending. And to view it as anything else is pure foolishness. A free to play player already could never dream of playing hearthstone competitvely. A shifting meta and multiple deck requirements rendered this goal DOA. But I guess being a part of the competitive scene was not enough of a motivation to spend, nor were the shiny baubles and early access. People were not spending enough.
So blizzard decided to leverage the last thing they had left, release day. Now if you don't buy the pay to the pay to win pass and/or pre-order you are going to have a sad release day. You will likely need to dust cards (a terrible decision in hearthstone, a losing proposition 90 percent of the time) in order to build 1, max 2 competitive decks on release. SInce Blizzard is committed to frequent nerfs/patches to constantly shift the meta, most f2p players will simply no longer be able to compete in standard once some time has past and stored resources are used up.
I suggest that the f2p players leave standard behind. Sure make decks, sure take a swing, but don't allow yourself to get caught in a frustration loop and allow the engine to constantly beat you with cards you don't have to hopefully goad you into buying more packs or crafting said card. The engine will just move on to beating you with the next card you don't have anyway.
Also notice that blizzard is moving the goal post on the spenders as well. That mid season card dump is going necessitate that those spenders spend more in order to keep up. This game is going to get more expensive for them, so have fun laughing at them as dump 100's of dollars on a dying game. I have been around these games for a long time, I have competed at a very high level in some and have spent money on some of them when I thought the game gave an honest return on investment. Hearthstone is entering the milking phase. They are going to try to get as much money as they can out of their existing whales, because their efforts to bring back players with DH failed and there will be almost no new players coming in the future due to the prohibitive cost to compete.
So I spent money on the mini expansions when I first started playing hearthstone, but went f2p when they moved to 3 expansions a year.
Since that time I have been f2p and have been able to maintain a decent collection, get 80-100 packs every expansion and continue to enjoy the game. I make legend pretty much every time I shoot for it (for example 4 of the last 6 months). So I could have continued to go on like this for as long as hearthstone was a thing.
There were leaked details a while back of what this system would look like. The gold rewards would be nerfed, and basically only people who spent money could open enough packs to compete in standard on opening day.
The most fun I would have in hearthstone would be on release day, opening those packs, trying out the new decks, trying to home brew my own, trying to figure out which crafts were worth it. Balancing the need to earn rewards with the limited resources of a f2p. Was a fun little mental challenge which sparked my interest 3x a year.
If what was said about this new track is accurate. All of this will go out the window with the new system. Even with max rewards, you could open max say 40 packs on opening day which would make competing in standard impossible and depressing. I could limp along in wild, which I may do, I do have quite an extensive collection at this point. But basically, unless this new system is completely different than what was leaked. I am basically unable to play standard competively as a F2P next year (I will still be able to buy 100 packs of the new expansion this time around).
So I am curious what the rest of you think of this. Should a f2p be able to compete by grinding quests and managing resources? Or should we be relegated to being 2nd class citizens and lose out on the pleasure of enjoying release day?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
⚙
Learn More
Cosmetics
Related Cards
Card Pools
✕
×
PopCard Settings
Click on the buttons to change the PopCard background.
Elements settings
Click on the button to hide or unhide popcard elements.
your desperate nitpicking is comical at this point.
I wonder why the details are not there yet. Especially the info on how much play to earn max gold rewards as f2p, vs how much play to earn maximum gold rewards as a p2p.
Blizzard intentionally hides key pieces of information so that people cannot analyze the changes properly. All so that their representatives can shout, how can you be critical when you don't know the details?
If I am wrong about the gold economy and if I am still able to buy 100 packs on release day come the first expansion of 2021 as a f2p, then I will come back and say that I was wrong and that blizzard did not destroy the f2p ability to enjoy a release. But if I am capped at say 40 - 50 packs in an expansion loaded with even more necessary cards to compete, I will be back to remind you.....unless of course I am banned for not being positive enough about the opportunities blizzard gives me to give them money.
also, nice to know that sherm ain't dead.....have a good one.
@tall stranger
I am not sure if you are not comprehending my post or are just being willfully obtuse. By the general ability to communicate you show, I will assume the latter. But I will try to speak simply in case it is the former.
P2P already has the advantage of fielding pretty much any deck they want. This is already a huge competitive advantage, if as a spender you want more of an advantage than that.....it just makes me kinda sad for you, F2p has to be very careful about what they craft as metas shift frequently with patches. Reaching legend is not always a choice for fun, I was quite happy for years getting to rank 5 to claim the top rewards for the month, only getting to legend a few times just to make sure I could. When blizzard put pressure on f2p to grind legend by moving the monthly rewards, that is when fielding a legend capable deck every month became more important because those free rewards that you can grind are immensely important for a f2p player to keep pace in this game.
One thing about this game is that it punishes playing the same deck over and over. Whether you choose to believe it is an algorithim that is countering your deck on purpose or you are just unlucky that your pocket meta has shifted such that you run only into counter decks who get nut draws for quite a while, I am not here to engage in that debate this time. But I will assert that you need more than one legend capable deck to make legend each month consistently. Opening 80-100 packs on release enables me to do that, opening 40 -50 packs on release does not.
You seem disingenous in your arguments in that on the one hand you state we don't know if gold is going to be choked in the new system for f2p and then on the other hand you state that it is right and good that gold should be choked for f2p because those paying customers deserve their bought and paid for advantage.
The reason people complain about this is because Blizzard is breaking the fundamental deal they made with players up front. Which is that a f2p is able to compete on ladder, they now seem to be moving the goalposts so that this will no longer be possible. If blizzard had built this game that way up front, then many of us would have skipped this game entirely, no harm no foul. Let the p2w whales have their pretty colors and elaborate slot machine that rewards them for spending and maybe code some realistic bots so they can feel as if they have skillfully won a game.
The point of posts such as mine is to point the problem with this approach out before it is implemented. Someone in the forum posted that blizzard has already increased the amount of gold in response to the negative feedback they received on the initial survey. I dunno if this is true, I hope it is. But my hope is that some people at blizzard have enough vision to understand that if they kill the f2p players they will watch their whales leave them and be left with a dead game. It has happened time and time again in f2p/p2w games, and seems to be happening here as blizzard seems to be milking them for even more cash while taking away the viability of f2p in the hopes of converting some of them to paying customers. That is running a business for the quarterly profit margin rather than the long term health of the game.
also: if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, has feathers like a duck....it is prolly a duck
@tall stranger
I see you in this forum on occasion playing the part of a paying customer who thinks paying a is a great idea. You claim that paying customers should have a competitive advantage over non paying customers. And they do, they always have had that advantage. They have more cards, more dust, more resources to craft. They also got other rewards, skins, gold cards, early access etc.
But it seems to bother you that a lowly free to play can still consistently make legend and open 100 or so packs on release day. It seems that you and blizzard have decided that this is not right, that a free to play should not be able to compete with the spenders or enjoy a release of a new expansion. That a player should have to pay for that experience.
This is when the mask comes off and blizzard drops all pretense of this being a game. It is a gamelike experience designed to stimulate spending. And to view it as anything else is pure foolishness. A free to play player already could never dream of playing hearthstone competitvely. A shifting meta and multiple deck requirements rendered this goal DOA. But I guess being a part of the competitive scene was not enough of a motivation to spend, nor were the shiny baubles and early access. People were not spending enough.
So blizzard decided to leverage the last thing they had left, release day. Now if you don't buy the pay to the pay to win pass and/or pre-order you are going to have a sad release day. You will likely need to dust cards (a terrible decision in hearthstone, a losing proposition 90 percent of the time) in order to build 1, max 2 competitive decks on release. SInce Blizzard is committed to frequent nerfs/patches to constantly shift the meta, most f2p players will simply no longer be able to compete in standard once some time has past and stored resources are used up.
I suggest that the f2p players leave standard behind. Sure make decks, sure take a swing, but don't allow yourself to get caught in a frustration loop and allow the engine to constantly beat you with cards you don't have to hopefully goad you into buying more packs or crafting said card. The engine will just move on to beating you with the next card you don't have anyway.
Also notice that blizzard is moving the goal post on the spenders as well. That mid season card dump is going necessitate that those spenders spend more in order to keep up. This game is going to get more expensive for them, so have fun laughing at them as dump 100's of dollars on a dying game. I have been around these games for a long time, I have competed at a very high level in some and have spent money on some of them when I thought the game gave an honest return on investment. Hearthstone is entering the milking phase. They are going to try to get as much money as they can out of their existing whales, because their efforts to bring back players with DH failed and there will be almost no new players coming in the future due to the prohibitive cost to compete.
So I spent money on the mini expansions when I first started playing hearthstone, but went f2p when they moved to 3 expansions a year.
Since that time I have been f2p and have been able to maintain a decent collection, get 80-100 packs every expansion and continue to enjoy the game. I make legend pretty much every time I shoot for it (for example 4 of the last 6 months). So I could have continued to go on like this for as long as hearthstone was a thing.
There were leaked details a while back of what this system would look like. The gold rewards would be nerfed, and basically only people who spent money could open enough packs to compete in standard on opening day.
The most fun I would have in hearthstone would be on release day, opening those packs, trying out the new decks, trying to home brew my own, trying to figure out which crafts were worth it. Balancing the need to earn rewards with the limited resources of a f2p. Was a fun little mental challenge which sparked my interest 3x a year.
If what was said about this new track is accurate. All of this will go out the window with the new system. Even with max rewards, you could open max say 40 packs on opening day which would make competing in standard impossible and depressing. I could limp along in wild, which I may do, I do have quite an extensive collection at this point. But basically, unless this new system is completely different than what was leaked. I am basically unable to play standard competively as a F2P next year (I will still be able to buy 100 packs of the new expansion this time around).
So I am curious what the rest of you think of this. Should a f2p be able to compete by grinding quests and managing resources? Or should we be relegated to being 2nd class citizens and lose out on the pleasure of enjoying release day?