The definition people are using is wrong. There is a reason things have definitions. Linguini is like spaghetti, but it’s incorrect to call linguini spaghetti. Mana cheating has been a concept in TCGs before hearthstone ever existed. It is playing a card for little or no cost before you could pay for it. It’s playing SotF for free six turns early. It’s using elvish piper to play an eldrazi turn 5.
As for GA, 14 mana (best case scenario) for 7 is extremely valuable and a bit overpowered. It’s not mana cheating. Playing it for free on turn 4-5 is. Also, you know what really screws up that strategy? Making them draw one cost beasts. Now if only there was a card that would put two 1/1 beasts in the opponent’s deck...
By that definition any card played using innervate/lightning bloom was mana cheated, doesnt have to cost 0.. Commencement pays 7 mana to play a more expensive minion + taunt/DS + 01 card draw, it only discounts around 6 mana but its certainly mana cheating. Its not something cut and dry, theres room for interpretation here I think.
I dont think anyone would be complaining about GA if Albatross was a good tech option bro, just saying LOL
Posters here are using mana cheating wrong. Ramp is not mana cheating, it is playing a 4 cost do nothing so you can play bigger cards sooner. All classes do not cheat mana. What you are describing with cards like Guardian Animals is not mana cheating it is value. You play a card for 7 mana to draw and play 2 cards 5 or less. You may get more than 7 in stats, you may not, but it is not mana cheating. It is a powerful card with high value.
There is one culprit that is mana cheating and it is completely unnecessary. Kael'thas Sunstrider is a prime example of mana cheating as you are playing a card for free, way earlier than you could afford it, even with ramping. The whole deck centers around playing Survival of the Fittest before your opponent has an answer to the 10 cost spell before you cheat it out for zero mana. This is the same problem with other mana cheating that HS has had in the past, such as big priest with Barnes and yshaarj or skull of the manari.
This expansion also saw a huge amount of overpowered cards in terms of value too, hence the paladin builds. My only suggestion is to think about what counters these strategies and build decks around them. I homebrewed a priest deck with an obscene amount of silence and targeted removal and I can run paladins and druids into the ground. Spell damage mage wrecks me, but I encounter them every fifth match at most. That’s the nature of HS, it’s not playing the best decks, the real game is predicting what decks you will face most often and playing a deck that beats them.
The definition ppl are using for mana cheating here is "any card that allows you to get any benefit for much less than what it should normally cost", aka extreme amounts of value, thats not a wrong statement in my book. GA puts two 5 mana beasts on the board (10 mana), with Rush (01 mana), drawing 2 cards (03 mana, 07 mana if one of the beasts is Twilight Runner cuz it draws another 2, basically a Sprint), thats 14+ worth of mana for a 7 mana card.. if you dont consider that mana cheating, I dont know what to tell you.
GA would be fine if it only gave you high value, but its also high tempo, very easy to swing the board by itself when played on turns 4-5.
What's funny is EVEN with once per turn, its still busted af. Casting a 10 cost spell for 0 is bad.
That change makes one hell of a difference. Cheating only one big spell is great but fine, mage does it all the time (Dragoncaster, Kalecgos etc), but Kael' Thas can go full miracle on your ass with big spells like an Auctioneer on steroids, GA into Overflow into SotF... Kael'Thas being able to chain off spells that draw a lot of cards indefinetely is quite retarded, huge oversight on Team 5's part.
I said in my first reply that Kael'thas not having a "once per turn" clause is very concerning, cuz then the payoff can get out of control too easily. It would be fine if you could only cheat big spells once per turn, no problem with the effect itself.
I dont mind a deck having powerful tempo swings/mana cheating as long as it takes thought to play..
Can you give an example? Because somehow nothing comes to my mind.
Risky Skipper swings, Exotic Mountseller swings are fresh, great examples. My all time favorites are Miracle Rogue Auctioneer turns and Handlock Molten Giants "clear board into taunt up", really miss those days..
But exotic mountseller does not let you draw cards or kill their minions, GA does.
It CAN do ALL those things (depending on the cheap spells you used), but not EVERYTIME, it VARIES.. Thats the big difference, you see? Guardian Animals is the equivalent of a perfect Mountseller turn, just like UI was the equivalent of a perfect Auctioneer miracle turn. The problem is not the ramp itself, its the ramp payoff being too consistently high all the time that breaks it.
The problem is not the mana cheating, its the lack of SETUP: all you need is to play Guardian Animals once and you win, everything after that is pure auto-pilot. I dont mind a deck having powerful tempo swings/mana cheating as long as it takes thought to play.. this druid deck is more brain dead than aggro lol, its impossible to make a mistake.
I do believe Kael should have a once per turn clause though, allowing its effect to activate multiple times is just asking for trouble..
That's just not true. Period. Guardian Animals played early is very powerful. Played on curve, it's good, depending on what beasts get summoned. Played late it is entirely manageable. Again, the problem is Kael.
NO. The problem is when a deck with tons of ramping can recover the tempo lost and refill the hand in just one turn as we saw in KotFT with ultimate infestation, when druid was 60% of the ladder. The deck does not need Kaelthas to stomp you on turn 3-4.
All classes cheat mana one way or another, thats part of hearthstone. Druid gives up the early game to play expensive cards earlier than usual, that is a balanced trade if the druid has to work to pull off the tempo swing. A good example is the Exotic Mountseller shenanigans: very powerful tempo swing, but requires a lot of cards in hand and proper setup on the druids part, so even though it is very powerful, it is balanced.
Guardian Animals is broken cuz you just need to play it as quickly as possible to swing the board, no setup required, the exact same problem with Ultimate Infestation. Everytime Ramp Druid can swing the board with just one card they break the game, cuz then the ramp payoff is ALWAYS guaranteed, which should never be the case.
Mana cheating is fine and an integral part of the game, getting a guaranteed high return for it everytime is the problem.
The problem is not the mana cheating, its the lack of SETUP: all you need is to play Guardian Animals once and you win, everything after that is pure auto-pilot. I dont mind a deck having powerful tempo swings/mana cheating as long as it takes thought to play.. this druid deck is more brain dead than aggro lol, its impossible to make a mistake.
I do believe Kael should have a once per turn clause though, allowing its effect to activate multiple times is just asking for trouble..
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By that definition any card played using innervate/lightning bloom was mana cheated, doesnt have to cost 0.. Commencement pays 7 mana to play a more expensive minion + taunt/DS + 01 card draw, it only discounts around 6 mana but its certainly mana cheating. Its not something cut and dry, theres room for interpretation here I think.
I dont think anyone would be complaining about GA if Albatross was a good tech option bro, just saying LOL
The definition ppl are using for mana cheating here is "any card that allows you to get any benefit for much less than what it should normally cost", aka extreme amounts of value, thats not a wrong statement in my book. GA puts two 5 mana beasts on the board (10 mana), with Rush (01 mana), drawing 2 cards (03 mana, 07 mana if one of the beasts is Twilight Runner cuz it draws another 2, basically a Sprint), thats 14+ worth of mana for a 7 mana card.. if you dont consider that mana cheating, I dont know what to tell you.
GA would be fine if it only gave you high value, but its also high tempo, very easy to swing the board by itself when played on turns 4-5.
That change makes one hell of a difference. Cheating only one big spell is great but fine, mage does it all the time (Dragoncaster, Kalecgos etc), but Kael' Thas can go full miracle on your ass with big spells like an Auctioneer on steroids, GA into Overflow into SotF... Kael'Thas being able to chain off spells that draw a lot of cards indefinetely is quite retarded, huge oversight on Team 5's part.
I said in my first reply that Kael'thas not having a "once per turn" clause is very concerning, cuz then the payoff can get out of control too easily. It would be fine if you could only cheat big spells once per turn, no problem with the effect itself.
Risky Skipper swings, Exotic Mountseller swings are fresh, great examples. My all time favorites are Miracle Rogue Auctioneer turns and Handlock Molten Giants "clear board into taunt up", really miss those days..
It CAN do ALL those things (depending on the cheap spells you used), but not EVERYTIME, it VARIES.. Thats the big difference, you see? Guardian Animals is the equivalent of a perfect Mountseller turn, just like UI was the equivalent of a perfect Auctioneer miracle turn. The problem is not the ramp itself, its the ramp payoff being too consistently high all the time that breaks it.
All classes cheat mana one way or another, thats part of hearthstone. Druid gives up the early game to play expensive cards earlier than usual, that is a balanced trade if the druid has to work to pull off the tempo swing. A good example is the Exotic Mountseller shenanigans: very powerful tempo swing, but requires a lot of cards in hand and proper setup on the druids part, so even though it is very powerful, it is balanced.
Guardian Animals is broken cuz you just need to play it as quickly as possible to swing the board, no setup required, the exact same problem with Ultimate Infestation. Everytime Ramp Druid can swing the board with just one card they break the game, cuz then the ramp payoff is ALWAYS guaranteed, which should never be the case.
Mana cheating is fine and an integral part of the game, getting a guaranteed high return for it everytime is the problem.
The problem is not the mana cheating, its the lack of SETUP: all you need is to play Guardian Animals once and you win, everything after that is pure auto-pilot. I dont mind a deck having powerful tempo swings/mana cheating as long as it takes thought to play.. this druid deck is more brain dead than aggro lol, its impossible to make a mistake.
I do believe Kael should have a once per turn clause though, allowing its effect to activate multiple times is just asking for trouble..