Hearthpwn

Quote from Ainz__Ooal__Gown >>

 and its not like you dont have options for draw you just would rather play something else, no class has really 0 card draw because theres draw on the neutral/classic set.

 Aside from Octosari, there's no draw on the neutral cards that I can think of - there's 3 or 4 cycle cards but these are generally rubbish and you would only put realy put them in a combo style deck.

Quote from ShadowAldrius >>

That's not  really niche. Most minions have more than 4 attack or less than 4 attack. It's not hard to find spots to use them.

I mean, sure, for some people it might feel better, but fundamentally there's not much difference between a 40 card pool of reasonable cards, and a 20 card pool of cards you chose.

 It's true most minions don't have 4 attack, but it's also true that the shadow word pain you just generated won't do anything to the minions with attack >5 (while the shadow word death's (plural) you stuck in your deck to deal with buffed druid minions will).

As for the cards in your deck the chances are the pool is a lot smaller (you can have duplicates) but for me the most important thing is that you put them there.  The focus here is on choice over randomness.

To be honest I think we're slightly talking at tangents, as I'm not saying that discover isn't a good mechanic or priests don't have good spells.  More than the emphasis should always be on the cards you decided to put in your deck - for utility, for meta teching - whatever the reason, rather than the random ones you get along the way.  The ability to draw those cards in a somewhat consistent way is the key to a successful deck regardless as to which class you play.

Or maybe not - maybe we just disargree.  Either way good luck to ya!

Quote from ShadowAldrius >>

 If you find what you need your opponent feels salty and that you lucked out.  Don't find what you need and you get annoyed at having no card draw, particularly if the card you're looking for is in your deck.

Well, that's not correct. If you didn't get what you were looking for (healing or removal generally) you probably wouldn't have done much better off of drawing it.

People kinda whine about priest getting randomly generate removal, but there're so many removal options in the priest pool that's just... going to happen. Them getting a removal card isn't luck. It's very, very, very likely.

This isn't like burgle rogue or box where suddenly the aggro/combo class has board control tools and healing and hard removal. Priest can only generate priest cards outside of dragons.

 Not drawing a card you put in your deck is fine - it's part of card games (that is assumng you have a fair chance to get it).  While it's true priest has lots of removal, they're often quite niche.  Shadow words have very specific attack requirements for example.

I still think it feels better for both players when the answer comes from the deck - not from disover into random card into discover...

I still disagree with you, but either way I think it's a pretty un-fun mechanic regardless as to which side you're on.  If you find what you need your opponent feels salty and that you lucked out.  Don't find what you need and you get annoyed at having no card draw, particularly if the card you're looking for is in your deck.

I think the mechanic is fine in moderation but to rely solely on it as a psuedo draw mechanic is a poor design choice (imo).

Quote from ShadowAldrius >>

I disagree.  Priest can get the right resource from a discover effect, but it can also get rubbish that's of no use and sometimes is detrimental to the design of your deck.  Compare the discover (or add random card) mechanic with drawing cards you put in your deck. 

Almost every priest card has reasonable stat or a reasonable effect for it's cost. And the bulk of decks that use those discover or randomly generated effects are midrange or control decks anyway. And that's also pretty much priest's win condition. Control the board, generate more resources than your opponent can deal with. There's nothing really bad to generate. You're not mad to get cheap cards like Breath of the Infinite or Smite or Penance because it clears your hand to generate more cards, board clears like Soul Mirror, Shadow Word: Ruin and Plague of Death are all good for resets and you're not mad to get expensive card generators like Skeletal Drake because it generates powerful cards. And then there's like Natalie Seline and Mind Control which are just insanely good cards for taking the board. And pretty much any priest minion in general is good because it just lets you put good stats onto the board. Few priest minions are understated, and the ones that are have such generally good effects that are easy to activate (like Brittlebone Destroyer).

Not every deck and class has to be a cycle class that cycles through to get to it's strategy IMO. I really like the variety of Galakrond Priest and having to think on my feet on which cards are best to play and how best to play out my hand.

I don't think it's very good against how much powerful tempo Druid has right now, though.

 Just focusing on spells, you've picked only the good cards and even those can be situation dependent.  What about Grave ruin, mind games, unsleeping soul, holy ripple, radiance, healing circle, Lazul's scheme, whispers of evil, power word shield, inner fire - cards that are chosed to  feature in nearly no priest decks other than those designed with these cards specificlly in mind. 

I agree with your last point tho - not every deck should be a cylcle class which just burns through their deck.  They should, imo, all have access to some card draw though and card draw should always be a cost/benefit decision (which it really isn't at the moment for many of the decks).

Quote from ShadowAldrius >>

Priest can get the right resource from a discover effect the exact same way they can draw the right card from their deck. My point is, the consistency of priest discover effects is about as good as a well designed deck is. The priest minion and spell pools from year of the phoenix is THAT consistent.

I disagree.  Priest can get the right resource from a discover effect, but it can also get rubbish that's of no use and sometimes is detrimental to the design of your deck.  Compare the discover (or add random card) mechanic with drawing cards you put in your deck. 

1) you know what cards are there.  You put them there before you started. Most decks outisde highlanders run duplicate cards to increase consistency and there may be more than one card which in you deck which is useful.  In contrast, discover pulls from the full set of spells or minions.  I decided to count.  There are 40 spells and 43 minions to pick from.  Those odds are much lower than you would normally get from drawing cards from your deck (particularly if you're look at the "add random card" rather than discover).

2) Card draw nearly always provides more than one card.  Discover is nearly always 1 card (albeit this is generated as an "extra" resource)

3) if you draw enough cards you will get the answer (assuming it's there).  This is not true with discover which can continued to give you the wrong cards turn after turn.  On the flip side the discover mechanic can get you answer that isn't in your deck.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying the discover mechanic is bad, just that it shouldn't be the sole means of generating cards in hand.  Do we really think that randomly generating things turn after turn is a good mechanic for a card game, where part of the decision making proccess should be "which cards do I put in my deck"?  Going "full casino" is also unhealthy for any card game imo (but it does make some good Trolden videos....)

Quote from ShadowAldrius >>

Quote from lv426a11 >>

Just to follow up - the problem with a lack of card draw is that you often need to draw cards to get the answer YOU put in your deck.  Without card draw (and instead card generation) it just the luck of the draw. 

Surely no game should reward randomness over planning.  That's just daft...

 It's not rewarding randomness. It's rewarding intuition. Galakrond Priest has a very narrow band of minions it can give you. Same with Sethekk. Priest spells only do so many things. And the current Priest class in Standard is designed that way.

 I'm not going to count the spells and minions, but if you think that the number of priest possibilities vs. the ones you put in your deck is somehow a clever mechanic that can be designe or played around - you're simply wrong.   You can't plan to generate the right spell any more than you can plan to draw the next card.  What you can do is choose which cards go in your deck and increase the number of cards drawn (assuming to option is given).  There's also a big difference betwen cards in deck and those randomly generated.   I can draw the rest of my deck and that garauntees the right card (assuming I put it in the deck).  I can generate as many cards as I like and withing the constraints of a hearthstone game I might never get the card I need.

To balanace this you would assume that the priest cards would do more for their mana cost, as you're much less likely to get the card you need when you need it, but this isn't the case.  How many people looked at the priest cards that were revealed and said - that's OP?  I can tell you - none.  Why?  Because none are "objectively" OP.  Factoring in the randomness of card generation would imply (to me at least) that the cards should be better than the other class equivalents.  Why?- because the chances of getting them in your hand is smaller (no card draw or random generation). 

It's a flawed design.  Sure - you might highroll and win.  Equally you might fizzle and die.  There's nothing instricly fun about generating the right win condition for the circumstances - you just feel you lucked out. 

On the other hand, it feels really frustrating knowing that you put the counter in your deck but have no means to draw it (and I mean that taking acount of the fact that this is a draw based card game and sometimes you just don't draw what you need).

Just to follow up - the problem with a lack of card draw is that you often need to draw cards to get the answer YOU put in your deck.  Without card draw (and instead card generation) it just the luck of the draw. 

Surely no game should reward randomness over planning.  That's just daft...

The problem is so acute at the moment that control decks (whatever few of them there are at the moment) don't really need a win condition.  The oponent will usually hit fatigue when you still have 15 cards in your deck (if you're playing priest this is not an exageration).

Card generation is fine as a mechanic but it shouldn't be the sole way of accessing resources. 

edit: - card draw also used to be a choice for deck building.  How much card draw do you stick in your deck to ensure you have the resources to do your thing, knowing that the card draw card cards generally result in a loss of tempo

Anyone else think its pretty stupid how unbalanced the card draw is between the classes?  Rogue, druid, Demon Hunter, warlock,  warrior (a bit less so) - all can power through their whole deck twice at least tiwce as quickly as the remaining classes and generaly without any real detriment to their playstyle.

It just feals really unfair to sit there hoping to draw your answer while they draw their entire deck in the same time.  It's not just about resources - it's about access to the answers that you put in your deck before you start.

Given that all the cards seem to be balanced around the same genreal principles of mana cost and stats (and neutral cards by their availability to all classes definitely are), how can it be fair that some classes have access to card draw while some do not.

If it were a discussion betwen "a little" vs "a lot" that would seem OK (classes are different), but the way the classes are at the moment it's "none" vs. " a ton".

Where is the draw for priest, shaman, paladin, hunter (mage is pretty much in the middle)? I get that these classes are supposed to make up for card draw through random generation, but that's never going to be able to compete with a well designed, optimised deck list.