Hearthpwn

Quote from Skyi101 >>

Quote from samuellima91 >>

Quote from Skyi101 >>

So if rush is that good, even with low health. Why is everyone and there mom hating on the new legendary rush minions that guarantees a kill and leaves 6 HP on board?

Rush is reactive. Charge is proactive.

And hammer in a bubble against the cards you listed is bad, yes. Buts it's also game winning when played right.

 Because the community ALWAYS overreact to cards that end up not seeing any play and badly rate cards that look bad on the surface but then they end up becoming meta. There has been plenty of examples in every single card reveal period. Lady in White and Chameleos are two of the most notorious ones. People were going crazy about those two cards and they end up being so bad that they saw no play in standard and are completely dead in Wild. I overreacted to them as well. People are judging Turalyon, the Tenured way too early. The card got better after they revealed Commencement. If you pull him with that he kills something without taking any damage then you can kill another thing and you end the turn with a 3/9 taunt. That's really solid. Of course, that's highly dependent on the viability of Big Paladin but people just like to look at cards on their surface and ignore potential synergies and the fact that it's impossible to predict how the meta will turn out.

Being proactive isn't about just going face with a charge minion. That's extremely short sighted. Getting good value trades and leaving a threat is also a proactive way to win the game. Your opponent has to react and if they fail you will be way ahead of them and they are going to have a hard time making a comeback. That's actually how the game should work. Charge minions are unhealthy. Stonetusk Boar is one of most cancerous cards in the game. Whenever there's a way to reliably make it big enough to kill your opponent, the meta becomes insanely frustrating. Some time ago, both Imprisoned Scrap Imp and Scavenger's Ingenuity were nerfed because they made Boar (and other chargers in Zoo) into an easy way to kill opponents so fast they barely had time to do anything. Those two cards would be fine if it wasn't for charge abuse. Boar should be removed from standard, eventually. It just causes problems.

I don't know how Hammer of Wrath can be game winning outside of killing players that are already pretty much dead. Its draw isn't even conditional. It's regular random draw so it will never guarantee anything. If you use it to kill stuff so you don't have to sacrifice health or trade your own stuff then i suppose that can be game winning, occasionally. But, as i said, paying 4 mana to deal 3 damage is absolutely terrible. If there were better options this card would be cut instantly from all lists and remain in Limbo until it was buffed/removed from standard. The only reason to ever use this card is just that: a lack of better options.

 A card is bad because better options don't exist?

Guess I'll just be a terrible legendary player for getting legend running 2 copies. Thanks.

 In this case the answer is yes. I already made the necessary comparisons so i'm not gonna go through that again. Just because a good player got to legend using a bad card that doesn't make the card good. The good players can make the most out of any card including the bad ones. So, give yourself a pat in the back. You are a very good player. But the card is still bad.

Quote from Skyi101 >>

So if rush is that good, even with low health. Why is everyone and there mom hating on the new legendary rush minions that guarantees a kill and leaves 6 HP on board?

Rush is reactive. Charge is proactive.

And hammer in a bubble against the cards you listed is bad, yes. Buts it's also game winning when played right.

 Because the community ALWAYS overreact to cards that end up not seeing any play and badly rate cards that look bad on the surface but then they end up becoming meta. There has been plenty of examples in every single card reveal period. Lady in White and Chameleos are two of the most notorious ones. People were going crazy about those two cards and they end up being so bad that they saw no play in standard and are completely dead in Wild. I overreacted to them as well. People are judging Turalyon, the Tenured way too early. The card got better after they revealed Commencement. If you pull him with that he kills something without taking any damage then you can kill another thing and you end the turn with a 3/9 taunt. That's really solid. Of course, that's highly dependent on the viability of Big Paladin but people just like to look at cards on their surface and ignore potential synergies and the fact that it's impossible to predict how the meta will turn out.

Being proactive isn't about just going face with a charge minion. That's extremely short sighted. Getting good value trades and leaving a threat is also a proactive way to win the game. Your opponent has to react and if they fail you will be way ahead of them and they are going to have a hard time making a comeback. That's actually how the game should work. Charge minions are unhealthy. Stonetusk Boar is one of most cancerous cards in the game. Whenever there's a way to reliably make it big enough to kill your opponent, the meta becomes insanely frustrating. Some time ago, both Imprisoned Scrap Imp and Scavenger's Ingenuity were nerfed because they made Boar (and other chargers in Zoo) into an easy way to kill opponents so fast they barely had time to do anything. Those two cards would be fine if it wasn't for charge abuse. Boar should be removed from standard, eventually. It just causes problems.

I don't know how Hammer of Wrath can be game winning outside of killing players that are already pretty much dead. Its draw isn't even conditional. It's regular random draw so it will never guarantee anything. If you use it to kill stuff so you don't have to sacrifice health or trade your own stuff then i suppose that can be game winning, occasionally. But, as i said, paying 4 mana to deal 3 damage is absolutely terrible. If there were better options this card would be cut instantly from all lists and remain in Limbo until it was buffed/removed from standard. The only reason to ever use this card is just that: a lack of better options.

Quote from Skyi101 >>

Quote from FrustratedPallyMain >>

Hammer of Wrath is crap at 4 mana, it would see play if it was 3. And so is Call to Adventure. People talked about including it after Aldor Attendant got reworked to 1 mana and it got cut very quickly. If either of them are as good as you guys say, please explain why they doesn't get run in any decks and why even the best players at Legend don't run them.

What's really funny is nothing that I suggested goes outside the boundaries of Paladin identity, yet you're accusing me of wanting cards outside Paladin identity. Plenty of "fast" damage nowadays is minion-based. Just look at Restless Mummy. When Witchwood was first released Paladin got a Rush card along with the other classes, and I believe this is the first expansion post-Witchwood where we've gotten a Rush card that we can use. Paladins have traditionally been about minion combat, Rush uses minions as removal and establishes board at the same time - the mechanics aren't conflicting. Neither is card draw outside Paladin identity, yet you're accusing me of whining and wanting something that shouldn't be available.

 I legend this season with a homebrew pure libram deck that runs 2 hammers of wrath. After 50+ games I'm over 70% with the deck. So are you saying my winrate would be higher if I dropped them?

Hammer is far from useless.

Also, you have totally misread and made up a wrong interpretation of what I said. No where did I say paladin shouldn't have draw... Draw is also not a class mechanic it's a card game mechanic.

PS rush minions are reactive at best. The problem if any with pali is that it's a tempo class (sometimes combo) and tempo has generally struggled against the hyper agro decks out there or the casino RNG decks that are Mage, Priest and Rogue.

That doesn't make the class bad.

 If you had better options then you certainly would have better winrates. The baseline card for draw in Classic is 3 mana draw 2 (Arcane Intellect). Drawing a single card for 4 mana is really terrible. The other good comparison is Shadow Bolt which is 3 mana deal 4 damage to a minion and that's considered generally bad. Hammer is worse than a bad card for the purpose of removal. And when it comes to direct damage it pales in comparison to Fireball and Kill Command. So, Hammer of Wrath as a baseline card just sucks hard compared to everything else. Combining all three types of effects (draw, removal, direct damage) isn't good if the card ends up too weak on each front. This card perfectly showcases the issues within the class: it's an amalgamation of multiple mechanics without any focus.

Rush minion aren't necessarily reactive tools, either. They are in fact very proactive. You make an immediate value trade and you leave a body to threaten your opponent and the rest of their minions. That's good tempo. Paladin would benefit a lot if they had more of those. As a tempo class, it just sucks compared to Hunter and DH. Even Warrior is doing better than Paladin in that regard. Just because you are doing well that doesn't mean everyone else is. The class struggled extremely hard during AoO and only got a little breathing room after DH was completely demolished by nerfs. And, according to Vicious Syndicate, DH could easily regain their original position in the meta with just a few adjustments and that would be very bad news for Paladin and Shaman. There just isn't enough time left for the meta to settle once more. The class isn't bad but it's very, very far from good.

I agree with some of your thoughts. I still don't understand why they gave the buff quest to Priest and the Reborn one to Paladin. It just doesn't make sense. Priest is known for having buffs but they are also known for their revival and copying antics. Both quests make sense for the class but Paladin doesn't have resurrecting or copying as something they do. The reborn theme was just forced down their throats.

The draw issue is also something that's hard to understand as well. This is a card game. Card draw is one of the most important aspects and it shouldn't be a weakness or strength of any class. This generates a huge discrepancy between classes. The classes with better draw usually are the ones to get to the top or at least they are nearly always playable. But a class without draw suffers too much with inconsistency in their decks. They never get to draw their win conditions or core cards in time unless they play an incredibly defensive deck or rely on snowballing strategies. The removal of Divine Favor from standard was correct though. That card wasn't healthy in any way. It was absolutely insane against slow decks and disgustingly terrible against fast ones. What wasn't correct was the replacement card. Righteousness, an incredibly slow AoE buff spell that only works when you are extremely ahead on the board (basically, when you pretty much already won the game) and is a total dead card otherwise. The same happened to Priest. Radiance is just awful. These are not really playable cards. They left a void in their Classic/Basic sets. Priest got their rework and a bunch of buffs and interesting new cards. Paladin is in the waiting room.

Paladin also struggles with removal. While everyone else gets to remove stuff with a single card (big board clears, direct destruction, strong single target damage and so on), Paladin always has to do it in two steps. First apply a debuff (like Subdue) then trade with a minion or attack with a weapon. Or play an effect minion (like Wild Pyromancer) then use an AoE debuff. The only exception is Consecration but the card is too weak nowadays. You are always using more than one resource and that's just bad.

I do like Duel Paladin and the new 7 mana spell gives me hope that it will become viable (or at least playable). You really hated the 4/9 Lifesteal, huh? The card isn't bad. It's actually has pretty solid stats but i'll admit that it's really boring compared to what other classes got their hands on. I don't think the class is dead or unplayable but it suffers from too many issues and inconsistencies. It needs a rework.