This is simply a targeted Undatakah effect EXCEPT that it says "gain a COPY of" instead of just "gain." It is still a battlecry, and it also does not transform the Raptor into another minion. What I am saying is that there is a non-keyworded and unexplained difference between "gain" and "gain a copy of" in these two cases, and with respect to deathrattle effects. It seems to me like a distinction without a difference.
I know it won't. Listen to what I'm saying. I'm offering a hypothetical. If the text of Da Undatakah read "Copy the deathrattle effects of three friendly minions that died this game" instead of what it actually says "gain...," then would it go infinite with Recurring Villain? It's not complicated: I think things change a lot if you replace the word "gain" in the text of Da Undatakah with the word "copy." Am I wrong?
Yea but no, because the same is true of Faceless Manipulator (a "raw summoned" Faceless Manipulator is a 5 Mana 4/4). The difference in this case isnt between "battlecry" and "summon," it's between "gain" and "copy." That is, both Faceless Manipulator and Undatakah have battlecry (as opposed to summon) effects, but are different. That difference just has to be attributed to a difference between "gain" and "copy."
Right, but what I'm asking at this point is, "do you think that if Da Undatakah read 'copy the deathrattle effects of three friendly minions that died this game' (instead of "gain the deathrattle effects...") it would work like I originally thought?"
Yea. Im getting it , but now I'm pretty sure that the issue has nothing to do with battlecries versus summons versus original text, as you suggest. I think the issue is actually about the terms "gain" and "copy." For example, Faceless Manipulator's effect is a battlecry, like Da Undatakah (or Seeping Oozeling, for another relevant example), but because it says "copy" it can gain permanent effects (e.g. Lucentbark). Faceless Manipulator could easily read "gain text (or whatever term makes sense) of target minion," in which case it would perform resummon deathrattle effects only once, like Da Undatakah in this case. I would have to go through a lot of cards to make sure this is all consistent (Gloop Sprayer, Zerek, Redemption, and so on [this also opens up questions of "resurrect" versus "return to life" versus "resummon" versus "summon" and so on, all of which appear on cards and do sometimes identical and sometimes different things]), but I think that what were actually talking about is the difference between "gain" and "copy." Thoughts?
Right, and my mistake for even including the prelate in this discussion at all, as it is unnecessarily confusing. So imagine a deck with exactly one deathrattle card: Recurring Villain. Then imagine that I play Recurring Villain and it dies with 3 attack, failing to trigger its deathrattle. I then play Da Undatakah. Its Battlecry copies the Recurring Villain's deathrattle (since Da Undatakah copies deathrattles that never trigger and even silenced deathrattles), so it now should have a deathrattle that reads "If this minion has 4 or more attack, resummon it." So now, unless Da Undatakah is silenced or has its attack reduced below 4, it should resummon with the exact same deathrattle text, the same way that Recurring Villain does. Because Da Undatakah naturally has more than 4 attack (8), if it gets a deathrattle that resummons it if it has more than 4 attack, it should always resummon, right?
So I'm trying to work on an Undatakah + Recurring Villain + Immortal Prelate Paladin Deck, and I think there is a full-fledged bug with the way these cards work together. Recurring Villain's deathrattle reads "if this minion has 4 or more attack, resummon it." When Recurring Villain dies, it resummons with the same deathrattle text. This is not the case for an Undatakah that has copied Recurring Villain's deathrattle. It just resummons as a vanilla 8/5. This can't be right. If the deathrattle that is copied is "if this minion has 4 or more attack, resummon it," Da Undatakah should always meet that condition (Barring attack debuffs like shrink ray or aldor peacekeeper or something), so I'm calling this a bug. Am I missing something? It may seem small, but having played quite a few games with this deck, I genuinely think it would be a significant buff to the deck to fix this.
Okay listen. I UNDERSTAND THAT THIS INTERACTION DOES NOT WORK. WHAT I AM ASKING IS WHAT WOULD HAVE TO BE CHANGED TO MAKE IT WORK.
Here is another card that has existed in HS:
Unearthed Raptor
This is simply a targeted Undatakah effect EXCEPT that it says "gain a COPY of" instead of just "gain." It is still a battlecry, and it also does not transform the Raptor into another minion. What I am saying is that there is a non-keyworded and unexplained difference between "gain" and "gain a copy of" in these two cases, and with respect to deathrattle effects. It seems to me like a distinction without a difference.
I know it won't. Listen to what I'm saying. I'm offering a hypothetical. If the text of Da Undatakah read "Copy the deathrattle effects of three friendly minions that died this game" instead of what it actually says "gain...," then would it go infinite with Recurring Villain? It's not complicated: I think things change a lot if you replace the word "gain" in the text of Da Undatakah with the word "copy." Am I wrong?
Yea but no, because the same is true of Faceless Manipulator (a "raw summoned" Faceless Manipulator is a 5 Mana 4/4). The difference in this case isnt between "battlecry" and "summon," it's between "gain" and "copy." That is, both Faceless Manipulator and Undatakah have battlecry (as opposed to summon) effects, but are different. That difference just has to be attributed to a difference between "gain" and "copy."
Right, but what I'm asking at this point is, "do you think that if Da Undatakah read 'copy the deathrattle effects of three friendly minions that died this game' (instead of "gain the deathrattle effects...") it would work like I originally thought?"
Yea. Im getting it , but now I'm pretty sure that the issue has nothing to do with battlecries versus summons versus original text, as you suggest. I think the issue is actually about the terms "gain" and "copy." For example, Faceless Manipulator's effect is a battlecry, like Da Undatakah (or Seeping Oozeling, for another relevant example), but because it says "copy" it can gain permanent effects (e.g. Lucentbark). Faceless Manipulator could easily read "gain text (or whatever term makes sense) of target minion," in which case it would perform resummon deathrattle effects only once, like Da Undatakah in this case. I would have to go through a lot of cards to make sure this is all consistent (Gloop Sprayer, Zerek, Redemption, and so on [this also opens up questions of "resurrect" versus "return to life" versus "resummon" versus "summon" and so on, all of which appear on cards and do sometimes identical and sometimes different things]), but I think that what were actually talking about is the difference between "gain" and "copy." Thoughts?
Right, and my mistake for even including the prelate in this discussion at all, as it is unnecessarily confusing. So imagine a deck with exactly one deathrattle card: Recurring Villain. Then imagine that I play Recurring Villain and it dies with 3 attack, failing to trigger its deathrattle. I then play Da Undatakah. Its Battlecry copies the Recurring Villain's deathrattle (since Da Undatakah copies deathrattles that never trigger and even silenced deathrattles), so it now should have a deathrattle that reads "If this minion has 4 or more attack, resummon it." So now, unless Da Undatakah is silenced or has its attack reduced below 4, it should resummon with the exact same deathrattle text, the same way that Recurring Villain does. Because Da Undatakah naturally has more than 4 attack (8), if it gets a deathrattle that resummons it if it has more than 4 attack, it should always resummon, right?
So I'm trying to work on an Undatakah + Recurring Villain + Immortal Prelate Paladin Deck, and I think there is a full-fledged bug with the way these cards work together. Recurring Villain's deathrattle reads "if this minion has 4 or more attack, resummon it." When Recurring Villain dies, it resummons with the same deathrattle text. This is not the case for an Undatakah that has copied Recurring Villain's deathrattle. It just resummons as a vanilla 8/5. This can't be right. If the deathrattle that is copied is "if this minion has 4 or more attack, resummon it," Da Undatakah should always meet that condition (Barring attack debuffs like shrink ray or aldor peacekeeper or something), so I'm calling this a bug. Am I missing something? It may seem small, but having played quite a few games with this deck, I genuinely think it would be a significant buff to the deck to fix this.