And now Sophie Turner is going off on fans being "disrespectful".
First of all, I have zero respect for the show writers. They deserve none.
Second of all, who are you and where would you be without Game of Thrones fans? Aren't you about to make a movie around one of the most famous comic book story lines of all time, despite being panned universally as a block of wood on screen?
Not that you need me to tell you this, but don't go see Dark Phoenix. The way things are going, it'll be rebooted in ten years anyway.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
I was going to be done with this, because after all, the show ended terribly and how long can we dwell on it?
However, Kit Harington gives this interview where he says critics can all go fuck themselves because, "I know how hard everyone worked."
All the YouTubers are trying to reconcile this, saying we're not lamenting the amount of work done, but the writing problems.
I say, "you can go fuck yourself, Jon Snow." You worked really hard? Yeah, so hard that you couldn't be fucked to get your GOD DAMN STARBUCKS CUP OUT OF THE SHOT. Oh? It was a one-time mistake. No it wasn't, now we have water bottles.
And I know you worked too hard to actually shoot an ending that isn't a recut from season 4.
This kind of shit reminds me what we all should already know. All of the Hollywood scene is completely divorced from reality. I learned a lot here, and I have to say, I'm going to give far less of my money to these clowns in the future.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
I in no way want to shit on people who enjoyed the show. I have never begrudged someone their moments of escapism, and I will say that there were some shots that, as long as I consider them as illustrations to the better story of the books, will live on as great moment of television.
Having said that, it's hard to care about the glory of the first four seasons when the end undermines so much of that groundwork.
It's like the whole R + L = J plot line. Obviously, this was guessed for years before they gave it to us at the end of season . . . six, I think. It's a wonderful plot moment, not because that particular fact that Jon's father was Rhaegar is such a huge deal in and of itself, but because of all the crazy ramifications for the rest of the story. Rhaegar's marriage to Lianna caused Daenerys to be where she was. It caused the precursor conflict of the whole story. It caused Jaime to be dishonored and bitter, even though he acted in an honorable fashion. It's a spectacular moment of reveal.
Now, in the books, this is presumably going to happen because Rhaegar believed in the prophecy of the Prince who was Promised. He's not some dick who wanted to peace out on his wife; he believed that his actions were necessary for the survival of the kingdom. But, looking at the TV series, the Rhaegar/Lianna line has ABSOLUTELY NO BEARING ON THE CURRENT EVENTS.
Think about it. Jon was King in the North before his lineage was revealed. What did the fact that he was the rightful heir effect? He could have killed Dany without it. He didn't kill the Night King or even fight the Night King, so clearly the whole prophecy thing was irrelevant to the story. What did it serve?
In fact, now that we know the ending, I guess Rhaegar was a dick who just tore a kingdom apart for no reason.
Furthermore, just from a medieval history point of view, the Bran the Broken thing was patently absurd. The kid can't have children. He can't lead armies. The whole bullshit about "who tells the best stories" was an attempt at high art writing that fell woefully short, and did a huge disservice to Tyrion's character. And when Bran dies, or has to grow into a tree, or whatever the fuck, we get a whole new round of killing and intrigue to figure out who serves as the next king.
I understand that not every plot thread can pay off as some hugely relevant issue. We lost Quaithe and never figured out anything about her, for example, and while I wished that were not so, I can understand why she sort of fell by the wayside. Another HUGE one for me was the heavily-implied supernatural nature of Roose Bolton. It's more prominent in the books, but they had an opportunity to make the Boltons some kind of ally to the Others, or perhaps their own entity, but no. Nothing there. Fine, if that's what they want to do, at least we got the Battle of the Bastards.
It is patently fucking ridiculous, however, that they did not pay off three of the most central plot lines through the entire series:
1. Jon is the progeny of Rhaegar and Lianna.
2. Littlefinger started the events of Ned Stark's demise and paved the way for a takeover by Daenerys.
3. Bran and the Three-Eyed Raven
Jon's lineage doesn't matter, because he's not Azor Ahai. None of that mattered in the least to the resolution of the story.
Littlefinger dies unceremoniously after fucking around doing stupid stuff he was way too smart to do. I guess that plot line ended with, "well, that guy did a lot of horrible shit for power, but he got his". Cool . . . I guess.
Bran was hands down the biggest waste of screen time in the show. Aside from verifying that Littlefinger was, in fact, bad, Bran's powers amount to nothing. Furthermore, we got no context as to why the Night King cares about him in particular. We get no exploration of any number of mysteries about the history of Westeros through his flashbacks. And we don't get the obvious fact pointed out that any number of people would be ready to put a dagger thru Bran's heart for allowing the events of episode 5 to occur without trying to intervene. The idea that anyone would accept him as king knowing that he exhibits no care at all for the responsibility his powers incur is beyond the pale of suspension of disbelief.
Even if you assume that the seasons had to be truncated (which they didn't), the amount of screen time devoted to Brann is tragic. We couldn't pay any attention to Dorne's intended story line, but we got the "Hold the Door!" seen, so it's all good. We couldn't find out anything about the long-foreshadowed relevant lineage of Bronn, but we got Arya side boob, so it's cool.
Someone above basically said that we should enjoy the parts of the journey that were quality. The problem is that memories can be recontextualized as events unfold. I remember spending hours talking with my wife about what might happen next season. Those were good times . . . then. Now it just seems an insane waste of time.
The real tragedy is that there are new, ambitious fantasy projects in the works for TV and cinema. And as much as I would like to be excited, I just can't bring myself to invest that sort of attention. If GoT can't bring it home after such an amazing build-up, what else can?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
To be honest, Game of Thrones is a copy paste of Arthas with Jaina Proudmore (where Jaina is actually Jon Snow and Arthas is Dayneris)
Six weeks ago, I would have said that's like saying Trigonometry is a copy paste of Arithmetic
Now . . . yes
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
I am going to go HAM on the first motherfucker who comes in here and says:
"aT lEaSt Me GoTs My Petz on GhOSt"
That fucking shot . . . the fucking shot at the end where Jon pets ghost was a relighted shot from Season 4.
It's like, "we can't be fucked to realize that Jon leaving his wolf behind without so much as an ear scratch is ridiculously offensive to anyone who has spent ten minutes watching this show, but when the internet calls us on it, we take the 'piss on them and tell them it's raining' approach".
GOD DAMN IT, I had resolved that everything that was spoiled in the freefolk subreddit was true, and that I could let this die with the silent fart of significance it deserved. But that last little insult really has me up in arms.
I will never throw a single dollar to anything these fucking writers do again. So help me God, I don't care if it's Star Wars.
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
Well . . . that was . . . a hell of a whimper to end on.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
The show is great. I liken it to Empire Strikes Back. People complained - the bad guys won, Luke got his hand cut off, Solo was captured by Boba Fett, how dark, I'm done with this crap. Next movie people complained about the opposite - the good guys won, there were Ewoks, it was feel-good BS, they sold out. You can't have it both ways. I loved EP5 and I am hyped for the finale, whatever may come.
Ebert gave 4/4 to both Empire and Jedi.
A quick review of the movie reviews at the time had people raving about both. They were incredibly successful and looked upon as classics 30 years later.
To quote Luke Skywalker in a much worse movie: "Amazing . . . every word of what you just said was wrong."
If you like the show, great. Please get out of the habit of shaping reality to fit the narrative. It's supposed to be the other way around.
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
I think the Brann line is the entire reason I've been willing to attack this season before it is over.
Even if they sent 100% of this episode on Brann, I find it hard to believe they could address the radical questions posed and betrayed by that multi-season story. And of course, they aren't going to spend nearly that much time on it.
It was very interesting to see the emerging commentary from several Game of Thrones actors. In particular, Conleth Hill, the guy who played Varys, went into great detail about the deteriorating quality of the show in basically every aspect except effects. Listening to him, and to a lesser extent Peter Dinklage, it appears we are not the only ones gravely disappointed.
I can understand why some fans just want us to shut up and enjoy what's given. To some extent, I feel the urge to turn off and tune in. I mean, my God, this show has been running during the vast majority of my adult life. It hurts to watch this. But, as I wrote in my big post earlier, art matters. Culture matters. It's crazy to have folks just say, "it's a show about dragons and castles, it doesn't matter."
I hope the next generation of authors and screenwriters don't reach the same conclusion.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
I know there is a section in the forums to talk about other things, and this thread is not breaking any site rules, but I am just so tired of coming onto hearthpwn and seeing this thread. it is taking up space and most people here don't come here to talk about game of thrones. so I would like to politely request that we close this thread.
Wow, congrats dude. I didn't think it was possible to break the conceit meter harder than some folks do on the salt thread, but you have most definitely done it.
I'm reminded of a quote from the best movie in the world:
GENTLEMEN! YOU CAN'T FIGHT IN HERE, THIS IS THE WAR ROOM!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
No it isn't. As I have stated multiple times with no one responding, EVERY FAN SITE HAS TAKEN AS GOSPEL THAT DANY WOULD GO INSANE AT SOME POINT. This has been an assumption for years. There is no surprise here, except among folks who haven't been paying more than the most superficial attention.
I'm not going to type my huge post again, no one bothered to respond to it anyway. Just stop the straw-manning. No one is saying the "twist" (which was seen from ten miles and four years away) wasn't a decent plot point. They are saying that it wasn't earned with a reasonably built foundation. I have gone into great detail as to why that is.
And if the response is, "well the casual show fans are mad", I don't think you can substantiate that claim. Most of the superficial fans I've seen talking about this just liked the spectacle of the episode. The outcry is coming from people who have watched eight seasons of show and read five books, and are being given a subpar product.
As I've said, it is known that GRRM gave the writers the ending he intended without walking them step-by-step through the way he got from the end of the currently printed book material to the end of the series. The show writers are not up to the task of taking on story-telling at Martin's level, and this is the result.
I'm disappointed because of several very objective metrics that the show failed to meet.
By the way, I forgot in my large post to mention the one scene that could have saved this all for me. You guys remember Sansa and Tyrion were once married, and Tyrion refused to touch her until she asked? Imagine with me a scene after the battle with the Others, in the following episode.
After Dany legitimizes Gendry, Jon Snow calls Tyrion to stand before the king's table. He doesn't know if he's going to be chewed out or what, but Sansa starts talking instead of Jon. And she says something like (keeping in mind I'm no writer):
You protected me in the house of my enemies. You gave me your name and your kindness. And I ran. I ran from my future as your wife, and I left you to answer for a crime I knew you didn't commit [Joff's murder]. I am not proud of how I acted as a girl, but I am before you as a woman grown, and I ask that you stand with me now as my husband.
Something like that, I'm bad at this. But, with a little more polish, can you FUCKING IMAGINE that piece of drama? Why did we not get a wrap up to that story line? It was the one subplot that could have been paid off in an actual uplifting way without completely ruining the general aesthetic.
I freely admit they could do this in the epilogue of the last episode, but I bet my life it doesn't happen.
Either way, stop with the straw man. I honestly don't understand how folks can defend this writing, but even if you are inclined to do so, at least address the arguments being made.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
First of all, she absolutely did not sacrifice her child willingly. And I'm not counting threats; that can be posturing.
Oh really?
“You warned me that only death could pay for life. I thought you meant the horse.”
“No,” Mirri Maz Duur said. “That was a lie you told yourself. You knew the price.”
Had she? Had she? If I look back I am lost. “The price was paid,” Dany said. “The horse, my child, Quaro and Qotho, Haggo and Cohollo. The price was paid and paid and paid.” She rose from her cushions. “Where is Khal Drogo? Show him to me, godswife, maegi, bloodmage, whatever you are. Show me Khal Drogo. Show me what I bought with my son’s life.”
Dude, yes, really.
"You knew the price" from the blood witch who had lied about what the spell would do is not a reliable source. "Show me what I bought" was sarcasm. I mean, this stuff isn't from me. GRRM has stated unequivocally that she had been had by the witch.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
Except Dany would never do this, and was done for the sake of the plot and to be "shocking".
Let's take a look at what Dany has done throughout the show, shall we?
Dany threatens to cut off her brother's hands if he hits her again
Dany watches without emotion as her older brother (heir to the throne over her) is melted to death by her husband
Knowing that the death of her Kahl husband will mean the end of her and her army, Dany sacrifices her unborn child to a witch in a misguided attempt to save him
Thinking all is lost, Dany burns the witch, her semi-dead husband and herself alive, only to survive and get dragons, because magic
Dany threatens to raze Qarth when they don't let her in
Dany has her Dragons incinerate the Warlock Pyat Pree
Dany locks Xaro in his vault to die of starvation
Dany burns the slavemasters of Astapor and steals their army of unsullied
Dany orders the unsullied to sack astapor and leaves the city ungoverned and in shambles to march to Yunkai
Dany sacks the city of Yunkai and leaves the city ungoverned and in shambles to march to Mareen
Dany instigates a slave revolt to take Mareen, then crucifies 163 nobles from that city
Dany has a great master burned alive and eaten by her dragons as reprisal for Ser Barriston's death
Dany gathers all the Dothraki leaders together and burns them alive
Dany declares her intent to "return their [slaver's bay] cities to the dirt," but is persuaded to by Tyrion not to do it
Dany burns the entire slavemaster's armada (what about the innocents?!)
Dany burns the Tarlys for not bending the knee
Yes. Dany is was a totally kind a delightful ruler up until season 8 episode 5. If anything is clear, its that the only thing holding her back the entire time from not doing this earlier were here trusted advisers, who are now all dead or untrusted
First of all, she absolutely did not sacrifice her child willingly. And I'm not counting threats; that can be posturing.
100% of actual actions you listed involve people directly threatening her or the slaves.
Meanwhile, she stops Dothraki from raping, limits the Astapor casualties to "soldiers and any man with a whip", takes Yunkai peacefully, limits the retribution against the Mureen masters to one for each crucified slave . . . I have no idea which of these are supposed to come remotely close to the stunt she pulled this time around.
There is no direct link to be drawn from any past act to the actions of this episode, which is the very definition of poor character development. As I said in the long post, they could have bypassed a lot of this by adding some specific "in the moment" trauma for her to experience, but they did not. Everything was going well, and the city surrendered.
Three years ago, it was stated that GRRM had told the writers the ending of the story, but had not sketched out the specifics of how to get from the end of season 4 (around the end of current book material) to the end of the entire story. These writers had an end goal, but no imagination as to how to get there.
By the way, it is now confirmed that HBO had offered the writers a 10-episode run to finish this season. They chose to have a truncated final season. This fact does not lend me any sympathy to the "we had to hurry up and finish" argument.
And for the record, I am not defending the books. I am skeptical GRRM is going to live to finish his series, in which case I'm done reading fantasy epics. Already went through this shit once with Robert Jordan. But, at least the books still have the potential to pay off this series in a way that can satisfy fans. Time will tell.
Thanks Jaina. I shouldn't have posted that huge diatribe early in the morning. It will be buried by the time most people see it.
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
There was no prior event from Daenerys that precipitated changing the targets of her ire from her enemies to innocents AND there was no trauma she experienced in the moment that properly sets up the "she just snapped" defense. Furthermore, the setup was so easy to make that trauma happen (as I illustrated in my long post on this page), a conscientious fan could have a lot of trouble not looking on this episode as a disappointment, regardless of the eye candy or the end result.
I think you missed my post and the vary blunt explanation given in the show itself, which is that she didn't snap. She made a calculated judgment. Before (in easteros) she did not need to slaughter the innocents because they welcomed and loved her. As she expressly stated several times in this episode and before, she had no love in westeros. Her only option was to rule by fear, so that's what she was trying to accomplish by razing the city. She's not mad. She's always been narcissistic, only before she could do it while making herself feel good about freeing slaves, and now she can't
I mean, certainly that's the other way they could take this.
They could commit to the bit in the last episode and have people say she's mad, and have her throw it back at them that she's fully in control and what not. I just don't think that's how they're going to play it. I think she's going to play the unhinged despot for the last episode and it will all be hackneyed and predictable.
We'll see, though.
@DarkArchon
As I said, the fact that she went crazy (whether she deliberately slaughtered innocents or lost control, it's pretty crazy either way), is not really my complaint. The fact that they missed out on some very compelling story opportunities is my issue.
Honestly, wtf did Rhaegal's death in ep.4 accomplish? It would have been a much more "useful" death if they had done as I described last page. I just don't find myself believing that this character would do what she did at that time, and even though that's a subjective statement, what isn't subjective is how many other ways they could have chosen to up the believable factor . . . and the interesting factor as well, for that matter.
On another note, anyone realize that we completely lost the Quaithe plot line? The chick with the glass face mask back in season 2??? Guess that's just something we'll brush under the rug along with Victarion Greyjoy and the Dhampfir (however you spell the drowned god priest).
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
I haven't seen anyone saying that the Dany turn came "out of nowhere".
I did, however, clearly illustrate how it was handled terribly. Almost as if GRRM told the show writers that was how it needed to end, and they lacked any ability to bring it from point A to point B in a coherent fashion.
There was no prior event from Daenerys that precipitated changing the targets of her ire from her enemies to innocents AND there was no trauma she experienced in the moment that properly sets up the "she just snapped" defense. Furthermore, the setup was so easy to make that trauma happen (as I illustrated in my long post on this page), a conscientious fan could have a lot of trouble not looking on this episode as a disappointment, regardless of the eye candy or the end result.
In other words, everyone who has read a fan forum already knew that the fans were expecting Dany to go blood-mad. The end plot point is fine. The way they got there was amateurish and sad.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
⚙
Learn More
Cosmetics
Related Cards
Card Pools
✕
×
PopCard Settings
Click on the buttons to change the PopCard background.
Elements settings
Click on the button to hide or unhide popcard elements.
And now Sophie Turner is going off on fans being "disrespectful".
First of all, I have zero respect for the show writers. They deserve none.
Second of all, who are you and where would you be without Game of Thrones fans? Aren't you about to make a movie around one of the most famous comic book story lines of all time, despite being panned universally as a block of wood on screen?
Not that you need me to tell you this, but don't go see Dark Phoenix. The way things are going, it'll be rebooted in ten years anyway.
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
I was going to be done with this, because after all, the show ended terribly and how long can we dwell on it?
However, Kit Harington gives this interview where he says critics can all go fuck themselves because, "I know how hard everyone worked."
All the YouTubers are trying to reconcile this, saying we're not lamenting the amount of work done, but the writing problems.
I say, "you can go fuck yourself, Jon Snow." You worked really hard? Yeah, so hard that you couldn't be fucked to get your GOD DAMN STARBUCKS CUP OUT OF THE SHOT. Oh? It was a one-time mistake. No it wasn't, now we have water bottles.
And I know you worked too hard to actually shoot an ending that isn't a recut from season 4.
This kind of shit reminds me what we all should already know. All of the Hollywood scene is completely divorced from reality. I learned a lot here, and I have to say, I'm going to give far less of my money to these clowns in the future.
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
I in no way want to shit on people who enjoyed the show. I have never begrudged someone their moments of escapism, and I will say that there were some shots that, as long as I consider them as illustrations to the better story of the books, will live on as great moment of television.
Having said that, it's hard to care about the glory of the first four seasons when the end undermines so much of that groundwork.
It's like the whole R + L = J plot line. Obviously, this was guessed for years before they gave it to us at the end of season . . . six, I think. It's a wonderful plot moment, not because that particular fact that Jon's father was Rhaegar is such a huge deal in and of itself, but because of all the crazy ramifications for the rest of the story. Rhaegar's marriage to Lianna caused Daenerys to be where she was. It caused the precursor conflict of the whole story. It caused Jaime to be dishonored and bitter, even though he acted in an honorable fashion. It's a spectacular moment of reveal.
Now, in the books, this is presumably going to happen because Rhaegar believed in the prophecy of the Prince who was Promised. He's not some dick who wanted to peace out on his wife; he believed that his actions were necessary for the survival of the kingdom. But, looking at the TV series, the Rhaegar/Lianna line has ABSOLUTELY NO BEARING ON THE CURRENT EVENTS.
Think about it. Jon was King in the North before his lineage was revealed. What did the fact that he was the rightful heir effect? He could have killed Dany without it. He didn't kill the Night King or even fight the Night King, so clearly the whole prophecy thing was irrelevant to the story. What did it serve?
In fact, now that we know the ending, I guess Rhaegar was a dick who just tore a kingdom apart for no reason.
Furthermore, just from a medieval history point of view, the Bran the Broken thing was patently absurd. The kid can't have children. He can't lead armies. The whole bullshit about "who tells the best stories" was an attempt at high art writing that fell woefully short, and did a huge disservice to Tyrion's character. And when Bran dies, or has to grow into a tree, or whatever the fuck, we get a whole new round of killing and intrigue to figure out who serves as the next king.
I understand that not every plot thread can pay off as some hugely relevant issue. We lost Quaithe and never figured out anything about her, for example, and while I wished that were not so, I can understand why she sort of fell by the wayside. Another HUGE one for me was the heavily-implied supernatural nature of Roose Bolton. It's more prominent in the books, but they had an opportunity to make the Boltons some kind of ally to the Others, or perhaps their own entity, but no. Nothing there. Fine, if that's what they want to do, at least we got the Battle of the Bastards.
It is patently fucking ridiculous, however, that they did not pay off three of the most central plot lines through the entire series:
1. Jon is the progeny of Rhaegar and Lianna.
2. Littlefinger started the events of Ned Stark's demise and paved the way for a takeover by Daenerys.
3. Bran and the Three-Eyed Raven
Jon's lineage doesn't matter, because he's not Azor Ahai. None of that mattered in the least to the resolution of the story.
Littlefinger dies unceremoniously after fucking around doing stupid stuff he was way too smart to do. I guess that plot line ended with, "well, that guy did a lot of horrible shit for power, but he got his". Cool . . . I guess.
Bran was hands down the biggest waste of screen time in the show. Aside from verifying that Littlefinger was, in fact, bad, Bran's powers amount to nothing. Furthermore, we got no context as to why the Night King cares about him in particular. We get no exploration of any number of mysteries about the history of Westeros through his flashbacks. And we don't get the obvious fact pointed out that any number of people would be ready to put a dagger thru Bran's heart for allowing the events of episode 5 to occur without trying to intervene. The idea that anyone would accept him as king knowing that he exhibits no care at all for the responsibility his powers incur is beyond the pale of suspension of disbelief.
Even if you assume that the seasons had to be truncated (which they didn't), the amount of screen time devoted to Brann is tragic. We couldn't pay any attention to Dorne's intended story line, but we got the "Hold the Door!" seen, so it's all good. We couldn't find out anything about the long-foreshadowed relevant lineage of Bronn, but we got Arya side boob, so it's cool.
Someone above basically said that we should enjoy the parts of the journey that were quality. The problem is that memories can be recontextualized as events unfold. I remember spending hours talking with my wife about what might happen next season. Those were good times . . . then. Now it just seems an insane waste of time.
The real tragedy is that there are new, ambitious fantasy projects in the works for TV and cinema. And as much as I would like to be excited, I just can't bring myself to invest that sort of attention. If GoT can't bring it home after such an amazing build-up, what else can?
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
Six weeks ago, I would have said that's like saying Trigonometry is a copy paste of Arithmetic
Now . . . yes
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
I am going to go HAM on the first motherfucker who comes in here and says:
"aT lEaSt Me GoTs My Petz on GhOSt"
That fucking shot . . . the fucking shot at the end where Jon pets ghost was a relighted shot from Season 4.
It's like, "we can't be fucked to realize that Jon leaving his wolf behind without so much as an ear scratch is ridiculously offensive to anyone who has spent ten minutes watching this show, but when the internet calls us on it, we take the 'piss on them and tell them it's raining' approach".
GOD DAMN IT, I had resolved that everything that was spoiled in the freefolk subreddit was true, and that I could let this die with the silent fart of significance it deserved. But that last little insult really has me up in arms.
I will never throw a single dollar to anything these fucking writers do again. So help me God, I don't care if it's Star Wars.
Un-fucking-believable
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
Well . . . that was . . . a hell of a whimper to end on.
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
Ebert gave 4/4 to both Empire and Jedi.
A quick review of the movie reviews at the time had people raving about both. They were incredibly successful and looked upon as classics 30 years later.
To quote Luke Skywalker in a much worse movie: "Amazing . . . every word of what you just said was wrong."
If you like the show, great. Please get out of the habit of shaping reality to fit the narrative. It's supposed to be the other way around.
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
@delko
I think the Brann line is the entire reason I've been willing to attack this season before it is over.
Even if they sent 100% of this episode on Brann, I find it hard to believe they could address the radical questions posed and betrayed by that multi-season story. And of course, they aren't going to spend nearly that much time on it.
It was very interesting to see the emerging commentary from several Game of Thrones actors. In particular, Conleth Hill, the guy who played Varys, went into great detail about the deteriorating quality of the show in basically every aspect except effects. Listening to him, and to a lesser extent Peter Dinklage, it appears we are not the only ones gravely disappointed.
I can understand why some fans just want us to shut up and enjoy what's given. To some extent, I feel the urge to turn off and tune in. I mean, my God, this show has been running during the vast majority of my adult life. It hurts to watch this. But, as I wrote in my big post earlier, art matters. Culture matters. It's crazy to have folks just say, "it's a show about dragons and castles, it doesn't matter."
I hope the next generation of authors and screenwriters don't reach the same conclusion.
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
One more day, and the nightmare will end.
For the watch.
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
Wow, congrats dude. I didn't think it was possible to break the conceit meter harder than some folks do on the salt thread, but you have most definitely done it.
I'm reminded of a quote from the best movie in the world:
GENTLEMEN! YOU CAN'T FIGHT IN HERE, THIS IS THE WAR ROOM!
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
I'm not going to type my huge post again, no one bothered to respond to it anyway. Just stop the straw-manning. No one is saying the "twist" (which was seen from ten miles and four years away) wasn't a decent plot point. They are saying that it wasn't earned with a reasonably built foundation. I have gone into great detail as to why that is.
And if the response is, "well the casual show fans are mad", I don't think you can substantiate that claim. Most of the superficial fans I've seen talking about this just liked the spectacle of the episode. The outcry is coming from people who have watched eight seasons of show and read five books, and are being given a subpar product.
As I've said, it is known that GRRM gave the writers the ending he intended without walking them step-by-step through the way he got from the end of the currently printed book material to the end of the series. The show writers are not up to the task of taking on story-telling at Martin's level, and this is the result.
I'm disappointed because of several very objective metrics that the show failed to meet.
By the way, I forgot in my large post to mention the one scene that could have saved this all for me. You guys remember Sansa and Tyrion were once married, and Tyrion refused to touch her until she asked? Imagine with me a scene after the battle with the Others, in the following episode.
After Dany legitimizes Gendry, Jon Snow calls Tyrion to stand before the king's table. He doesn't know if he's going to be chewed out or what, but Sansa starts talking instead of Jon. And she says something like (keeping in mind I'm no writer):
You protected me in the house of my enemies. You gave me your name and your kindness. And I ran. I ran from my future as your wife, and I left you to answer for a crime I knew you didn't commit [Joff's murder]. I am not proud of how I acted as a girl, but I am before you as a woman grown, and I ask that you stand with me now as my husband.
Something like that, I'm bad at this. But, with a little more polish, can you FUCKING IMAGINE that piece of drama? Why did we not get a wrap up to that story line? It was the one subplot that could have been paid off in an actual uplifting way without completely ruining the general aesthetic.
I freely admit they could do this in the epilogue of the last episode, but I bet my life it doesn't happen.
Either way, stop with the straw man. I honestly don't understand how folks can defend this writing, but even if you are inclined to do so, at least address the arguments being made.
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
Dude, yes, really.
"You knew the price" from the blood witch who had lied about what the spell would do is not a reliable source. "Show me what I bought" was sarcasm. I mean, this stuff isn't from me. GRRM has stated unequivocally that she had been had by the witch.
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
First of all, she absolutely did not sacrifice her child willingly. And I'm not counting threats; that can be posturing.
100% of actual actions you listed involve people directly threatening her or the slaves.
Meanwhile, she stops Dothraki from raping, limits the Astapor casualties to "soldiers and any man with a whip", takes Yunkai peacefully, limits the retribution against the Mureen masters to one for each crucified slave . . . I have no idea which of these are supposed to come remotely close to the stunt she pulled this time around.
There is no direct link to be drawn from any past act to the actions of this episode, which is the very definition of poor character development. As I said in the long post, they could have bypassed a lot of this by adding some specific "in the moment" trauma for her to experience, but they did not. Everything was going well, and the city surrendered.
Three years ago, it was stated that GRRM had told the writers the ending of the story, but had not sketched out the specifics of how to get from the end of season 4 (around the end of current book material) to the end of the entire story. These writers had an end goal, but no imagination as to how to get there.
By the way, it is now confirmed that HBO had offered the writers a 10-episode run to finish this season. They chose to have a truncated final season. This fact does not lend me any sympathy to the "we had to hurry up and finish" argument.
And for the record, I am not defending the books. I am skeptical GRRM is going to live to finish his series, in which case I'm done reading fantasy epics. Already went through this shit once with Robert Jordan. But, at least the books still have the potential to pay off this series in a way that can satisfy fans. Time will tell.
Thanks Jaina. I shouldn't have posted that huge diatribe early in the morning. It will be buried by the time most people see it.
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
I mean, certainly that's the other way they could take this.
They could commit to the bit in the last episode and have people say she's mad, and have her throw it back at them that she's fully in control and what not. I just don't think that's how they're going to play it. I think she's going to play the unhinged despot for the last episode and it will all be hackneyed and predictable.
We'll see, though.
@DarkArchon
As I said, the fact that she went crazy (whether she deliberately slaughtered innocents or lost control, it's pretty crazy either way), is not really my complaint. The fact that they missed out on some very compelling story opportunities is my issue.
Honestly, wtf did Rhaegal's death in ep.4 accomplish? It would have been a much more "useful" death if they had done as I described last page. I just don't find myself believing that this character would do what she did at that time, and even though that's a subjective statement, what isn't subjective is how many other ways they could have chosen to up the believable factor . . . and the interesting factor as well, for that matter.
On another note, anyone realize that we completely lost the Quaithe plot line? The chick with the glass face mask back in season 2??? Guess that's just something we'll brush under the rug along with Victarion Greyjoy and the Dhampfir (however you spell the drowned god priest).
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
I haven't seen anyone saying that the Dany turn came "out of nowhere".
I did, however, clearly illustrate how it was handled terribly. Almost as if GRRM told the show writers that was how it needed to end, and they lacked any ability to bring it from point A to point B in a coherent fashion.
There was no prior event from Daenerys that precipitated changing the targets of her ire from her enemies to innocents AND there was no trauma she experienced in the moment that properly sets up the "she just snapped" defense. Furthermore, the setup was so easy to make that trauma happen (as I illustrated in my long post on this page), a conscientious fan could have a lot of trouble not looking on this episode as a disappointment, regardless of the eye candy or the end result.
In other words, everyone who has read a fan forum already knew that the fans were expecting Dany to go blood-mad. The end plot point is fine. The way they got there was amateurish and sad.
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.