Had his entire deck not been nerfed then we would still be under the reign of Shadowreaper Anduin. (In Wild)
Thing is, it wasn't Shadowreaper Anduin that was op. It was a zero mana version of his HP that was.
Like with any other card, it needs support. Deathstalker Rexxar is super cool but has never seen any serious play. Bloodreaver Gul’Dan would also be crappy if there were no good demons in the game.
So we are back with: Had the deck not been nerfed, then we would still be under Shadowreaper’s reign.
Yeah you're right. Raza the Chained was insane support for Shadowreaper Anduin because every single card got a battlecry of deal 2 damage attached to it. The default DK hero power is relatively well balanced.
Can we just not compare one Hero card to another for like, forever? There are some many angles how you can compare them and even then they are not comparable. For example you can take it from the perspective of 29 crappy cards+ DK, then Rexxar is obviously the king, followed by Thrall which will change your crappy cards to the ones that cost 3 more and Malfurion that has overall good heropower and battlecry. If we look at it from perspective in the decks, then obviously Kabal Hero cards are broken af. If we look at them form the angle of what only DK card does without the support, then Uther and Valeera are pretty powerfull too. You just can't compare them. Afterall, that is the reason why each of these Deathknights sees plays in one or both competitive formats.
I respectfully disagree. I think it's unreasonable to only compare cards that belong to the same exact niche. Then how would we ever compare cards?
Each DK has a battlecry. We can compare their impact and power level. Each DK has a hero power. We can compare them in terms of flexibility, value, etc. Each DK offers opportunities in terms of synergy. We can compare the potential of the synergies as well as the availability of those synergies.
For instance, are we really not allowed to compare Scourgelord Garrosh and Bloodreaver Gul'dan? I can say that demon synergy is more powerful than whirlwind synergy. I can say that 3 damage and lifestyle does much more in a game than whirlwind. I can say that creating a board that can both be offensive and defensive is often better than equipping an aoe weapon, since it catches up if you're behind and puts you further ahead if you were winning anyway. I just compared two DK'S, and sure, I can't compare them in a perfectly objective way like saying dealing 2 damage is better than dealing 1 damage for the same mana cost, but no one is going to say "Oh I can't say the warlock DK is better than the warrior DK because they cannot he compared, period." Sure, maybe the warrior DK will become better than the warlock DK in the future given new tools, but we can always look at them in perspective of the current support and what they offer.
Shadowreaper Anduin is not nearly as good as it was before pre Raza the Chained nerf. That's because the damage from your hero power is limited based on your hand size (and if you can't draw quickly, that's quite limited damage for a meta where most decks can generate armour or heal), and managing the mana can be clunky. You can use the HP to try to control the board or shoot for lethal, but you have to be in a winning position for that to work out. The battlecry is often not enough, because big threats aren't that common in the meta outside Mountain Giant, so if you're losing, the DK often won't help you catch up.
Deathstalker Rexxar crushes midrange decks, and can often outvalue control. It has a decent catchup mechanic due to the attached aoe, so it works from a losing position. Definitely a great DK.
Bloodreaver Gul'dan is amazing. Yes, it requires good demons, but warlock has them, so what's your point? Also, it has the biggest catchup mechanic. Go from an empty board to taunts or charges or even Despicable Dreadlord for psuedo-aoe. Then the hero power creates a 6 health difference every turn, and 3 heal every turn for 2 mana means that if they can't push for lethal soon or combo you, you'll be safely out of range after a few turns of not only clearing their board with the HP, but healing.
Frost Lich Jaina can be huge even from a losing position as well. Creates immediate board presence with a 3/6 that freezes, meaning it can trade up and prevent damange next turn while simulatenously healing. 3/6's are very awkward to remove, and creating them is really easy with various mage cards and smart trading. After a few turns, opponents will have a very awkward time trading, and you'll be able to heal completely back up quite quickly. Oh, and to the OP who says that it needs more good elementals to work: It requires no elemenals to work. The HP being able to generate Water Elementals is enough. BSM runs no elementals other than Arcane Artificer for armour gain, and sometimes Baron Geddon for mass healing and aoe. The DK is still the win condition without any additional elementals in the deck.
Not even going to talk about Thrall, Deathseer. Lost too much synergy, too much rng with badly statted minions in the mix. You can evolve from 1 to 7 cost minions and every minion can be a 1/1.
Scourgelord Garrosh has a flamestrike on a stick for three turns and a synergestic HP. However, losing armour game in the late gain is meh, and the whirlwin synergy is currently very lackluster. Weapon helps catchup, but without armour gain, it's risky. Also, weapon removal can really screw you over.
Malfurion the Pestilent is great because it can create stall and HP on the same turn. Not as good as warlock's HP, not as polarizing as mage's, and much less value than hunter's, but it's a very balanced one that helps druid manage either their board or health very well. I'd argue that it's even better than priest's DK HP, because it's flexible.
Uther of the Ebon Blade is 15 healing on a stick plus 5 armour and improved tokens. Yes, the weapon can catch you up on a lot of health, but if you're losing and the opponent is wide on the board, 9 mana for a 5/3 lifesteal weapon that only trades a single minion at a time is too slow. 2/2 tokens are also not valuable enough in the lategame, and if you're not runnning some exodia combo, you'll never summon 4. More of a win-more card or a card that only helps if you're on parity with your opponent. I like it, but not generating value, weapon only being able to trade one minion at a time, and the biggest benefit being healing is not nearly as good as what some of the other DK's can do.
Valeera the Hollow is gimicky. The stealth gives you one turn to catchup for spending 9 mana for nothing, but rogue doesn't have good aoe's. The HP is only useful if the deck has some sort of gameplan involved, whether that be buffing Kingsbane or milling the opponent. Too deck dependent.
Hagatha the Witch is not a DK but I'll talk about it as well. Creates amazing value and often helps stabilize the board. The ability to maintain card advantage and create value for doing what you would do anyway is amazing, and even shaman, as a non-control deck, can often match control decks for value because of it.
In short, a good DK should be able to make an immediate impact by creating board presence or catching back up. After that, it should help out in the rest of the game by either generating value or threatening infinite damage/healing. If those aren't ticked off, it's either very gimicky, or too slow and hence win-more.
Yeah you're right. Raza the Chained was insane support for Shadowreaper Anduin because every single card got a battlecry of deal 2 damage attached to it. The default DK hero power is relatively well balanced.
I respectfully disagree. I think it's unreasonable to only compare cards that belong to the same exact niche. Then how would we ever compare cards?
Each DK has a battlecry. We can compare their impact and power level. Each DK has a hero power. We can compare them in terms of flexibility, value, etc. Each DK offers opportunities in terms of synergy. We can compare the potential of the synergies as well as the availability of those synergies.
For instance, are we really not allowed to compare Scourgelord Garrosh and Bloodreaver Gul'dan? I can say that demon synergy is more powerful than whirlwind synergy. I can say that 3 damage and lifestyle does much more in a game than whirlwind. I can say that creating a board that can both be offensive and defensive is often better than equipping an aoe weapon, since it catches up if you're behind and puts you further ahead if you were winning anyway. I just compared two DK'S, and sure, I can't compare them in a perfectly objective way like saying dealing 2 damage is better than dealing 1 damage for the same mana cost, but no one is going to say "Oh I can't say the warlock DK is better than the warrior DK because they cannot he compared, period." Sure, maybe the warrior DK will become better than the warlock DK in the future given new tools, but we can always look at them in perspective of the current support and what they offer.
Thing is, it wasn't Shadowreaper Anduin that was op. It was a zero mana version of his HP that was.
Shadowreaper Anduin is not nearly as good as it was before pre Raza the Chained nerf. That's because the damage from your hero power is limited based on your hand size (and if you can't draw quickly, that's quite limited damage for a meta where most decks can generate armour or heal), and managing the mana can be clunky. You can use the HP to try to control the board or shoot for lethal, but you have to be in a winning position for that to work out. The battlecry is often not enough, because big threats aren't that common in the meta outside Mountain Giant, so if you're losing, the DK often won't help you catch up.
Deathstalker Rexxar crushes midrange decks, and can often outvalue control. It has a decent catchup mechanic due to the attached aoe, so it works from a losing position. Definitely a great DK.
Bloodreaver Gul'dan is amazing. Yes, it requires good demons, but warlock has them, so what's your point? Also, it has the biggest catchup mechanic. Go from an empty board to taunts or charges or even Despicable Dreadlord for psuedo-aoe. Then the hero power creates a 6 health difference every turn, and 3 heal every turn for 2 mana means that if they can't push for lethal soon or combo you, you'll be safely out of range after a few turns of not only clearing their board with the HP, but healing.
Frost Lich Jaina can be huge even from a losing position as well. Creates immediate board presence with a 3/6 that freezes, meaning it can trade up and prevent damange next turn while simulatenously healing. 3/6's are very awkward to remove, and creating them is really easy with various mage cards and smart trading. After a few turns, opponents will have a very awkward time trading, and you'll be able to heal completely back up quite quickly. Oh, and to the OP who says that it needs more good elementals to work: It requires no elemenals to work. The HP being able to generate Water Elementals is enough. BSM runs no elementals other than Arcane Artificer for armour gain, and sometimes Baron Geddon for mass healing and aoe. The DK is still the win condition without any additional elementals in the deck.
Not even going to talk about Thrall, Deathseer. Lost too much synergy, too much rng with badly statted minions in the mix. You can evolve from 1 to 7 cost minions and every minion can be a 1/1.
Scourgelord Garrosh has a flamestrike on a stick for three turns and a synergestic HP. However, losing armour game in the late gain is meh, and the whirlwin synergy is currently very lackluster. Weapon helps catchup, but without armour gain, it's risky. Also, weapon removal can really screw you over.
Malfurion the Pestilent is great because it can create stall and HP on the same turn. Not as good as warlock's HP, not as polarizing as mage's, and much less value than hunter's, but it's a very balanced one that helps druid manage either their board or health very well. I'd argue that it's even better than priest's DK HP, because it's flexible.
Uther of the Ebon Blade is 15 healing on a stick plus 5 armour and improved tokens. Yes, the weapon can catch you up on a lot of health, but if you're losing and the opponent is wide on the board, 9 mana for a 5/3 lifesteal weapon that only trades a single minion at a time is too slow. 2/2 tokens are also not valuable enough in the lategame, and if you're not runnning some exodia combo, you'll never summon 4. More of a win-more card or a card that only helps if you're on parity with your opponent. I like it, but not generating value, weapon only being able to trade one minion at a time, and the biggest benefit being healing is not nearly as good as what some of the other DK's can do.
Valeera the Hollow is gimicky. The stealth gives you one turn to catchup for spending 9 mana for nothing, but rogue doesn't have good aoe's. The HP is only useful if the deck has some sort of gameplan involved, whether that be buffing Kingsbane or milling the opponent. Too deck dependent.
Hagatha the Witch is not a DK but I'll talk about it as well. Creates amazing value and often helps stabilize the board. The ability to maintain card advantage and create value for doing what you would do anyway is amazing, and even shaman, as a non-control deck, can often match control decks for value because of it.
In short, a good DK should be able to make an immediate impact by creating board presence or catching back up. After that, it should help out in the rest of the game by either generating value or threatening infinite damage/healing. If those aren't ticked off, it's either very gimicky, or too slow and hence win-more.
My list would look like this:
1:Bloodreaver Gul'dan
2:Frost Lich Jaina.
3: Malfurion the Pestilent
4: Deathstalker Rexxar (barely loses out to druid imo, could go both ways)
5: Shadowreaper Anduin
6: Scourgelord Garrosh
7: Valeera the Hollow
8: Uther of the Ebon Blade
9: Thrall, Deathseer.
If I were to include Hagatha the Witch in my list, I would put it at number three above Malfurion the Pestilent.
I welcome people to tell me how abosolutley wrong I am. This is just a list I came up with, curious what other people think.