imo we should have some way to rate draft-dependant cards. While synergy isn't something you'd prioritize in arena I've been blasted way too many times by Duskbreaker to not considering possible synergies.
Well, that isnt exactly easy to do before the release of an expansion. First of all, our scale is relatively strict with just 5 levels (to not complicate things) and also the synergies that we could anticipate might change. What i mean is, the card offering rates might change, which they did, so even tho it could have looked like some classes would have an easier way to get those synergies, it could have easilly not been true.
But i suppose for a dragon priest especially, we all suspected that it would be true and we said as much and we did evaluate cards like Duskbreaker with that in mind, but i can agree that the scores dont rly take the synergy into consideration in the end. Or rather how easy is for a priest to achieve it.
The five score system is quite fine. It's just that some cards heavily relies on other cards and are pretty useless in a vacuum. I agree that it's almost impossible to gauge unless the expansion is released and can still fluctuate between sets or balance changes.
imo we should have some way to rate draft-dependant cards. While synergy isn't something you'd prioritize in arena I've been blasted way too many times by Duskbreaker to not considering possible synergies.
Yeah, you can easily "counter" Wandering Monster with attacking with a big enough minion. But let's have good laugh while most people don't try to play around this lol. Played two of them during my last run, I have summoned Silverback Patriarch to Injured Blademaster, good time :)
Warrior - Extinct. I encountered 1; and steamrolled it.
Wow, that's rude to warriors everywhere. Anyway, I played as warrior yesterday and here's my verdict on newer warrior cards:
Lesser Mithril Spellstone - Turns out not very hard to upgrade, and while upgrading it twice is possible, upgrading it once is good enough. Also, equipping Weapon as result of ability (like N'zoth's First Mate) also counts for the upgrade, so it's feels nice.
Unidentified Shield - With 50% chance to get "Deal 5 damage", it's pretty decent to take down critical target mid-late game.
Drywhisker Armorer and Reckless Flurry - I did get this combo but spending two cards and 5 mana to clear the board seemed underwhelming. I didn't really notice my Armor level during games so I don't know yet whether Fury is good or not without instant armor cards.
On final card reveal, I mostly agreed with your reviews, I'll just add a few points about few cards.
Astral Tiger - Well, yes, it's playable, but I think the other choices would be more interesting than a vanilla minion with average stats.
Ebon Dragonsmith - I think this card is definitely better than Blackwater Pirate. It's a battlecry instead of continuous effect, so you don't have to protect it or something. 2-mana reduction is quite huge too. It should be at least average in a weapon deck.
Barkskin - Isn't the reason Power Word: Shield is a good card is because the cantrip? Looks like pretty bland card for me.
Twilight Acolyte - Good. At worst, it is 2/4 for 3 mana, not really bad. At best, you Humility a creature and making this a deadlier threat, which is nice.
2/4 for 3 is pretty bad tbh ... but all that aside, u need a dragon in hand to activate, thats why we rated it so low, sure, there is a high chance that priest will have decent dragon synergy, but that doesnt change the fact, that this is a combo card, most likely an unreliable combo card.
Most 3 mana minions in standard is 3/3, so really, 2/4 is still okay. But I agreed that there are better epics than a vanilla 2/4. Let's see if Sleepy Dragon or Hoarding Dragon can help with this.
Anyway, I thought this would be an interesting thread on its own but turns out that might be more relevant here after all. I sorted the cards according to its general response when they are revealed, and filters badly reviewed cards (with Arena perspective):
Currenty, there are about 20 well-liked cards and 20 not-well-liked cards. From those responses, its interesting to imagine how classes would play, and what neutrals would be arena staples after the expansion hits. Druids and Paladins got versatile cards, Hunters get removal tools and powerful Legendary, Mages are going to look for big spells, and I'd try to pick every Lone Champion offered to me.
As about fifty cards have been revealed I think it's a good time to do a little recap again. Excluding cards in previous post, this is the recent outstanding arena cards:
Druid didn't get anything exciting. Mage and Warrior both got a lot of "theme" cards that still have unknown quality. Actually, shaman got a "basic totem" theme but I guess nobody interested in that, thankfully they also got the super-flexible evolve card. Paladin and Warlock get quite decent and reliable cards. Rogue gets highly valuable card in Strider and Mistrel. Both hunter and priest got few, but decent cards. Lastly, Hoarding Dragon is looking to be a staple common in the expansion.
Aluneth Rating 4(Poor): At first it seems like a really cool card, but when you're drawing 4 cards a turn you are going to deck yourself very quickly. I just see this doing more harm than good unless you're already about to win.
Dragoncaller Alanna Rating 5(Terrible): You could potentially get nothing except a 3/3 for nine mana, and that is an absolutely terrible deal.
Dragon Soul Rating 5(Terrible): The effect is really cool and Priest can get some really cheap spells, but how often are you going to be able to cast 3 spells in a single turn to get the 5/5 Dragon? Maybe once, if you're lucky.
Geosculptor Yip Rating 4(Poor): Armor gain typically isn't a huge thing in Arena, so I don't know that you'll be getting huge minions from this. You can probably get a steady chain of 2-drops, but is that really going to be worth it?
Grumble, Worldshaker Rating 3(Average): I like the stats, but returning everything to your hand could be the wrong move. There are times this could work out really well, allowing you to make favorable trades, then returning your minions to be cast again. The rest of the time it's going to be a little awkward. This and Bonemare will get ridiculous.
Ixlid, Fungal Lord Rating 4(Poor): This seems slow and is in very real danger of being killed outright after you play it. I'm sure it will have some great moments, but it's just going to be too situational.
Kathrena Winterwisp Rating 3(Average): This is really going to be draft dependent, but even at the worst, if you're getting a free River Crocolisk on the Battlecry and Deathrattle it's not a bad deal.
Kingsbane Rating 4(Poor): Every once in awhile you'll get one that has a Deadly Poison or Envenom Weapon on it, but the rest of the time it's going to be a pretty lousy Legendary to have in your deck.
King Togwaggle Rating 5(Terrible): This is definitely not an Arena card and I can't even begin to imagine a scenario which would cause me to draft this kind of trash.
Lynessa Sunsorrow Rating 4(Poor): This is totally draft dependent and certainly not consistent enough to be given serious consideration unless you've already got several buffs in your deck.
Marin the Fox Rating 3(Average): I'm thinking that Marin may not even be availabe for Arena, due to the Treasure aspect. On his own he's an overcosted minion, but the potential to to get some amazing cards out of the Treasure Chest is pretty cool. I would rate him higher if he could break the chest by himself.
Rin, the First Disciple Rating 4(Poor): It's a more expensive Fen Creeper for Warlock. Even though it's true that you get value from the Seals, at 5 mana each, they really limit what you're able to cast each turn.
Skull of the Man'ari Rating 5(Terrible): I can see this being useful for Doomguard, but most of the time you don't want to miss the Battlecry on your Demons, like Abyssal Enforcer, Dread Infernal, and Lord Jaraxxus. It would also be nice if it triggered at the end of your turn, instead of at the start, but that still wouldn't make it good for Arena play anyway.
Sonya Shadowdancer Rating 4(Poor): You have to already have the board, and preferably some Battlecry or Deathrattle minions that will generate some card advantage for you. Otherwise, it's really nothing to get too excited about.
Temporus Rating 5(Terrible): So far this minion and King Togwaggle are tied for worst Arena card ever. Why could you possibly want to give your opponent an extra turn, especially 7-mana late in the game? When so many games come down to one turn you do not want to be giving your opponent any kind of edge.
The Runespear Rating 4(Poor): It's like a weapon-infused Tortollan Primalist, which is already a mixed-bag. It's a big mana investment for something that's wildly inconsistent, so I would probably pass most of the time.
Twig of the World Tree Rating 2 (Good): It gives a boost to your Hero Power, allowing you to have +2 Attack for 5 turns and offers the potential for a VERY big turn 8 by giving you a total of 18 mana to play with.
Val'anyr Rating 1(Excellent): You can get some amazing value out of this Weapon with the buff and recursion aspect of it. The fact that the weapon equips automatically after the minion dies and you don't have to cast it again is really awesome too!
Zola the Gorgon Rating 2(Good): This could really come in handy, especially in late game and you've just played your Bonemare or dropped a Primordial Drake a turn earlier. The golden version is irrelevant, but it sure will look pretty!
Arcane Tyrant Rating 3(Average): This is going to be really good in the right deck, but even if you have to pay for it I'd say it's still okay.
Bladed Gauntlet 4(Poor): This is really going to depend on your draft, but it's often going to cost you at least 4-mana total to make this a 2/2 Weapon that can't attack Heroes. Most of the time I'd say that is terrible, but with so many new cards that add Armor for Warrior it's possible to make this a large Weapon.
Branching Paths Rating 2(Good): I love the flexibility of the card, and it could replace Savage Roar in a pinch. On the flip side, gaining 12 Armor in a single turn can be the difference in the outcome of a game, especially when only one turn matters, and it usually does.
Call to Arms Rating 1(Excellent): I think this is great value and certainly better than Doppelgangster since it costs 1-mana less and can include 2/3 or 3/2 minions. This card allows you to thin your deck and get rid of all your low-cost minions, and even gives you one of them for free. I'd say it's a pretty good deal all the way around.
Cataclysm Rating 4(Poor): I don't like this card. I'm not putting it at a 5, simply because of the cost and board impact, but discarding your hand is awful. Luckily, Warlock can easily get card advantage again by using their Hero Power, but unless your opponent's hand was empty you're probably going to be struggling to get ahead.
Crushing Walls Rating 2(Good): I think this could be really useful, considering it just outright kills the minions, regardless of Health. It's like a mega Deadly Shot, but positioning is going to matter for this one.
Deck of Wonders Rating 5(Terrible: I only like to use random effects when I'm desperately digging for a solution. With this card you never know when you'll draw the spells, what they'll be, and who you'll target. You could be ahead and either kill yourself or the main minion that's keeping you alive. If I'm doing something random I at least want to be able to control WHEN it's going to happen, and in that respect, be able to have some influence on the board state before it happens.
Dragonhatcher Rating 5(Terrible): It's another expensive card with awful stats that is definitely meant for constructed play.
Dragon's Fury Rating 4(Poor): This is really going to be draft dependent, because you could potentially draw nothing or hit for less than 3 (which would make this an overcosted Volcanic Potion). Unfortunately, it's going to be pretty unreliable for Arena most of the time.
Evasion Rating 3(Average): I'm undecided on this one, and although it's like a pseudo Ice Block you can still take fatal damage, depending on what your opponent attacks you with first. It will probably cause some problems if your opponent is testing for Sudden Betrayal, but I still don't know how good it's going to be.
Fal'dorei Strider Rating 1(Excellent): The value from this card is outstanding and there's no downside. You've got the potential to get 16/16 worth of stats after paying only four mana. Well, there is actually one downside to this card. You can expect to see it paired against Vilespine Slayer in your draft, and that decision is going to hurt!
Grand Archivist Rating 5(Terrible): Bad stats and bad effect. Every spell is precious in Arena and the last thing you want to do is to start casting them with random targets.
Psychic Scream Rating 2(Good): This is pretty astounding removal for Arena, but it's likely going to leave you with an empty board too, unless you have something cheap you can cast. This will definitely be the source of many, many screams, psychic or otherwise.
Reckless Flurry Rating 4(Poor): You can easily get a Consecration out of this for 5-mana, but you lose the Armor AND it deals the damage to all your minions too. It pairs really well with the other card revealed with it, Drywhisker Armorer, but neither are Common, so they're going to be more difficult to draft together. I think I would rather stick with Brawl if I had a choice between the two of them.
Rummaging Kobold Rating 4(Poor): Most of the classes won't be able to use this (I know they all have the Legendary Weapons now, but consider a typical draft). It will be totally draft dependent, even with a Weapon-wielding class.
Spiteful Summoner Rating 4(Poor): It's difficult to decide where this one is gonna land, but I feel like it's definitely better for constructed where you can build your deck with high-cost spells. In Arena I think often times you're going to have cheaper removal that gets revealed and it may not be worth the cost. If you only have a couple of expensive spells, then that would certainly bump it up in value.
Unstable Evolution Rating 1(Excellent): The fact that you can evolve one or several minions multiple times in one turn is pretty amazing and offers great value. If you play a 5-drop on the following turn you could potentially upgrade it to a 10-drop! It's very flexible in how it can be used and I would expect all sorts of crazy combinations and shenanigans with this card. Be prepared!
Voidlord Rating 3(Average): It's a huge Taunt that can easily delay your opponent, without including the three minions that spawn from his Deathrattle. Although he's quite expensive he may just give you a couple of extra turns to finish off your opponent.
Windshear Stormcaller Rating 4(Poor): I think there are better options for a 5-drop and it's unlikely that you'll get to summon Al'Akir the Windlord. Even if you do meet those conditions, I would be surprised if it had a huge impact on the game.
Drywhisker Armorer Rating 4(Poor): I can see that Blizzard really, really wants Warriors to care about Armor in this expansion, but in Arena it's just not going to be that important. If you're getting ran over by an aggro deck this can help you gain your footing by all the Armor gain. Otherwise, I don't see much use for it.
Duskbreaker Rating 4(Poor): This is one of those cards that requires several things to happen before it can be used effectively. You've got to have another Dragon in your hand AND you need to have a clear board (unless you want to kill your minions too). For Arena I feel it's just too conditional and tricky to draft.
Elven Minstrel Rating 2(Good): I really like this card and don't think you'll have a problem getting the Combo. I feel like it's a great way to thin your deck in the late game too.
Explosive Runes Rating 3(Average): It's a Snipe for Mage that punishes your opponent for trying to play around it. I'm not crazy about it, but I think it's alright. This could be tricky to play around in the late game when life totals are dwindling.
Feral Gibberer Rating 3(Average): If you drop this first turn, your opponent may have a difficult time coping unless they have AOE or a Taunt they can throw in front of it. This is a card that must be dealt with, and thankfully it can easily be killed. You don't want it to leave it unchecked or it will snowball out of control.
Furbolg Mossbinder Rating 4(Poor): It seems alright, but you've still got to have a minion on the board for it to be worth anything. One thing to keep in mind is you're losing the stats from the minion you transform, so unless it was a 0/1 or 1/1 it's not as good as you might think.
Gather Your Party 4(Poor): I don't see getting a lot of mileage out of this one because you can't choose or Discover the minion you get. There will be way too many times you're paying 6 mana for a 2-drop.
Grizzled Guardian 3(Average): It's probably going to be hit or miss, but you should get at least 2 two-drops out of it and that should cover the overall cost of this minion. This one really hurts if your opponent Silences or steals it.
Hungry Ettin Rating 3(Average): This is a huge Taunt, but I can't help but feel like it's giving too much to your opponent. Of course, if they can't deal with it right away, things aren't going to be looking so good for them. Don't be surprised to see a Doomsayer pop up every once in awhile just to ruin your day.
Lesser Amethyst Spellstone Rating 2(Good): There are several common cards that will help boost this card's value when K&C initially drops, but you've still got plenty of other cards that deal damage to you (Flame Imp, Abyssal Enforcer, Hellfire, etc.). The Lifesteal aspect is great, but this would really be awesome if you could target players instead of just minions. That would probably be a ridiculous upgrade, though.
Lesser Diamond Spellstone Rating 5(Terrible): You're paying 7 mana to possibly resurrect garbage. Well, technically 2-drops, but who wants those on turn seven? Not to mention, the upgrade is going to be quite difficult to pull off in Arena.
Lesser Emerald Spellstone Rating 2(Good): I think this is a good card by itself and if you do manage to upgrade it (which is not that difficult) then it easily bumps up to Excellent status.
Lesser Mithril Spellstone Rating 5(Terrible): Although the amount of weapons offered in Arena have increased it's still no guarantee to get an upgrade on this spell. Don't forget, you've got to have this in your hand when you play the weapon in order to get the upgrade. If you consider the worst-case scenario and you're just getting a 5/5 minion, then it isn't worth the mana cost at all.
Lone Champion Rating 3(Average): It could be awkward if you draw it later in the game, but if you've got it from the start you could either Coin it out or play it after trading 2-drops with your opponent. I would rather have a Tar Creeper, so I would expect a little more out of a Rare minion.
Possessed Lackey Rating 5(Terrible): The cost and stats are terrible and the ability is a Deathrattle. You're also going to be really disappointed when you Recruit a Voidwalker from this.
Primal Talismans Rating 5(Terrible): It seems like trash for Arena. Sure, you may see those annoying moments where each minion your opponent kills spawns a Stoneclaw Totem, but most of the time I think it's just going to be a disappointment and a waste of a card slot in your deck.
Seeping Oozeling Rating 4(Poor): Most of the time the result is going to be decent, unless you get extremely unlucky with a Bomb Squad in your deck. It still seems a little overcosted to me, since the stats match other 4-cost minions. The Deathrattle you get would need to be pretty good to make up for that.
Wandering Monster Rating 3(Average): This could turn out to be okay for Hunter. It's like a Misdirection that you don't have to worry about hitting your face or one of your other minions. If it happens in the early game there's even a decent chance the summoned minion could survive.
Arcane Artificer Rating 3(Average): Normally I think this is going to be a mere annoyance, but if you manage to hang on to him with a Cabalist's Tome, then suddenly your initial Armor gain starts to get out of hand. Even getting one use from this minion, coupled with a Flamestrike, could be crucial in the late game.
Benevolent Djinn Rating 3(Average): Healing is usually not a major factor in drafting for Arena, but 3 Health a turn is a pretty large amount and you're guaranteed to get at least one heal since it hits at the end of your turn. The stats are alright, and it's an Elemental, so it could help to trigger some of your other minions.
Cheat Death Rating 3(Average): Rogues are going to have 3 Secrets in this expansion and here's one of them. It's like a Shadowstep that you have less control over. I think it could be alright, but I'm not sure how to evaluate it yet. With so few Secrets to start with, it's going to be pretty easy to play around this too.
Guild Recruiter Rating 3(Average): If you Recruit anything for 3-4 mana, then it's probably pretty good. Anything less and it's just going to be overcosted for the effect. Grim Necromancer already puts out 4/6 worth of combined stats for only 4 mana, so I think it needs to do better than that in order to be worth it.
Hoarding Dragon Rating 1(Excellent): Everyone will make the obvious comparison to Hungry Dragon, but because this one has a Deathrattle instead of a Battlecry, I think it is much better. Such a large minion on turn four is going to be difficult to deal with and I don't think giving your opponent two copies of The Coin are a huge downside.
Kobold Hermit Rating 3(Average): The stats are terrible, but I don't know how many times I've prayed to the gods of HS when using my Hero Power to get a Stoneclaw Totem or Wrath of Air Totem because it was absolutely crucial in my particular situation. This can get you exactly the totem you need for the same cost as your Hero Power, except now you've got a 1/1 body on the board too.
Kobold Illusionist Rating 4(Poor): If its special ability was a Battlecry instead of a Deathrattle I think it would be slightly better. As it stands right now, the cost is just a little too much.
Kobold Librarian Rating 1(Excellent): You're getting the effect of your Hero Power and a 2/1 body for only 1 mana! This is truly an amazing card for Warlock - and it's Common!
Raven Familiar Rating 3(Average): It's cool to see the Joust mechanic making a return and this seems like a decent card. The downside is that your opponent sees the spell you draw, so it's much easier to play around.
Silver Vanguard Rating 5(Terrible): The stats are terrible, the effect is a Deathrattle, and you need an 8-cost minion in your deck to get anything. I think I'll pass on this one.
Sudden Betrayal Rating 2(Good): This is another one of the new Rogue Secrets and I can see this causing a lot of trouble. It's strictly a better Misdirection, because it will only redirect to another enemy minion. This will be harder to play around, depending on the board state, and it could absolutely devastate your opponent.
Unidentified Elixir Rating 2(Good): All the variations of the Elixirs look pretty good and give a chance for some fun moments in game.
Unidentified Shield Rating 3(Average): No one cares about the Armor gain, so the important thing is what you're getting in addition to that. When you look at it, none of them are really overwhelming and the Tower Shield +10 definitely rates lower on the chart.
Vulgar Homunculus Rating 1(Excellent): This is another awesome card for Warlock! I absolutely do not care about the damage it does to you. It has outstanding stats for the 2-mana price tag and Common rarity.
nearly all the legendaries are rated "poor" or "terrible" what on earth is going on here?
It helps if you spoiler the long post :)
The score is very much based that this is Arena, and most legendaries just doesn't do well without help of other specific cards.
In my opinion the unpredictable nature of the card is what makes it bad. Playing the card while you are ahead is too risky, so it's played while you are behind as a desperation move. If that's the case it's effectiveness comes down to how heavy the remaining spells are in the deck.
So a highly situational and draft dependent card that needs it's negative impact limited in order to get effective use from it. Just sounds like a card that requires far too many variables to line up.
Yeah, board clear 101; never play them when you're ahead, but I understand this card is not easy to draft and play, and arena is already hard as it is.To My Side! - Terrible. The base version is terrible and I don't think you can ever play arena without any minions. I am thinking a fun Companion-only hunter in constructed though, DK Rexxar is a thing after all.
Yeah, I guess that's if you want to optimize it as a board clear. When you are offered a lot cheap premium spells then yeah picking this is a bad idea. Picking this early is also risky as there's no guarantee you'll be offered big spells. Like DyingAtheist said, it'd be optimal during the draft which you have picked some big spells, few or no small good spells, then get offered this late. That said, it's still a cheap board clear in right deck, and that makes it a decent card.
Oaken Summons 4 : Blizzard why do you hate my favourite class. The 6 armour is basically worth 1.2 mana but that card (Iron Hide) was never played and armour is worth less in arena than it is in constructed. This is a card you partially build your deck around but you're obviously not going to do that in arena... 4 mana to gain a little armour and potentially summon a 2-drop? Eh.
I actually like cards like these, even when the effects alone r a bit overcharged, you would never pick Iron Hide, cause it just gives u armor, thats a waste of a card. But u might want to get Oaken Summons, cause it also summons a minion. Yeah, its not very amazing card, but it is a card u might consider in some situations and some extra health (armor) is never a bad thing, when the card does more than just "heals" u. I dont mean to start an argument again :D but i wanted to share my point of view on cards like these ;-)
The problem is...well why draft it? Why would you not just draft yourself a two or three drop and save mana on the near useless bit? Combining two effects together in one card makes them stronger for sure, but when that effect is such a mediocre one and the other half relies on good rng for the minion....eh. if this was a Warrior card it would be substantially better.
Interesting huh? I'd never guessed that Blessing of Kings stapled into a 5/5 minion would make a tier 1 card either.
Im not sure if this was meant as a sarcasm or not, im a bit confused :o
It's not, I mean generally cards that is usually card A + card B is very popular. Seal of Champion is hugely popular, despite Blessing of Might and Hand of Protection is rarely used. Each would be too little of an impact of its own, but combine them, bam! good card.