I wouldn't call a card that has barely seen play during the last 2 years "a very safe craft". That would make King Mukla and King Krush, very safe crafts to and i've regularly seen people advise them as safe dusts.
Lets put it this way, a card is either a safe craft or a safe dust.
That depends on your arguments. I believe any evergreen card that sees play now is a safe craft as you can use it now and also expect to use it in the future. Of course if you are running low on resources and miss some staple legendaries then you might want to reconsider.
Al'Akir is strong when used in combination with buff spells for burst damage and right now you get loads of random spells including buffs when playing shaman.
I disagree with your last point from a mathematical value point of view. A craft is 1600 dust and dusting gives 400. If the perceived value of a card lies in between these 2 numbers it is not a safe craft nor a safe dust.
So King Krush, King Mukla and Millhouse Manastorm are safe crafts? They all are evergreen and have been used recently...
No, i don't think any evergreen that has been used recently is a safe craft, nor is any evergreen that hasn't seen play for a while a safe dust.
And maybe my last point wasn't put well. There are many cards that are neither a safe craft, nor a safe dust. I merely wanted to point out a card can't be both, guess that wasn't 100% clear when reading my post again.
TL'DR The tier list used to be a great reliable source for decision making, but this one turned into a hype list.
Oh boy. Where to start with this post. How exactly is the list supposed to incorporate 'expected future value'? Incorporating future value is a pretty ridiculous expectation given that value will always change when new cards and decks come out with each new expansion.
Furthermore you're contradicting yourself - if your think the main criteria should be future value then Classic legendaries should always rank fairly highly - as they will always have at least some value by virtue of the fact that they never rotate out of standard.
1. Nowhere did i write it would be easy, that doesn't make it impossible. Thats the goal of a crafting tier deck, people can create it after thinking things through and others who are new or don't want to put in that effort can use that info. Changing a card to Tier 1 for being used in a deck that has been succesfull for 2 days isn't a sign of thinking things through.
2. I'm not contradicting myself as nowhere i wrote Al'Akir should be ranked low, i merely stated it was funny he was discussed and haven't seen him used regularly for a long time. Your response is merely putting words in my mouth and then complaining about the words YOU put in my mouth. I just rather see a bit more info before changing a card to Tier 1 that has been Tier 3 for a long time and barely seen use for a while, but it fits perfect in a Hype list.
So you asked where to start? Well, you could try starting with a response to things i actually wrote....
TL'DR The tier list used to be a great reliable source for decision making, but this one turned into a hype list.
Thank you for your feedback. The list has always been like that.
ps. I'm baffled about Rhok'delar just being thrown into Tier 1 while DK Rexxar is still in Tier 2, despite every single Rhok'delar deck i've seen is also running DK Rexxar. It merely shows how much of a joke this Tier list turned out to be nowadays....
About DK Rexxar, why do you mention it when I have written about it above? I am also not a fan of using the rhetoric trick to come with one example and dismiss a whole list of 70+ cards because of it. Rather go through each card you think is misplaced and why, just remember to back it up with winrates, playrates or decklists to support your opinion. Right now, feedback is much appreciated, as it is hard to tell if cards are tech or staples in several archetypes.
Rhetoric?
Its a perfect example. DK Rexxar is used in more archetypes and is used in each deck Rhok'delar is also used, while as i pointed out, in the past Rhok'delar was even removed from the spell hunter decks as some other combo worked better. DK Rexxar has been a staple in those decks back then and is obviously a staple in the current deck to, hence to me it seems obvious DK Rexxar is the more important card to Hunter. Yet, you place Rhok'delar at Tier 1 and refer to DK as a card you expect to go there to.
If any of those should have moved to Tier 1 first, it should have been DK. Hence my response, which i still consider valid.
But whatever. No point in me responding anymore as the current tier list is meant to be a hype list, so nowhere near the thing i expected it to be. Sad as people who ask questions about improving their collection will still be directed here by mods who merge those threads in here and are fooled into crafting hype cards rather then the long term value cards they were asking about.
TL'DR The tier list used to be a great reliable source for decision making, but this one turned into a hype list.
Thank you for your feedback. The list has always been like that.
I disagree there.
In the past we had a Tier list that was looking at cards on their future value. That list was closed and then this list was created. Thats what i'm referring to when i point out the Tier list used to be different.
This list might have always been a hype list, but when you merge any created thread about crafting legendaries for long time value into this one, you are merely fooling people into crafting hype cards rather then value. Therefor i say, a tier list should be about value, not about hype.
People should be able to look at a list and decide if a legendary is worth crafting for that one deck they see and want to play. Throwing those hype cards into top tier based on the fact they are played in that deck merely makes them think crafting it is a good choice even when the card has been trash tier for 2 years and might become trash again soon after decks have been perfected.
ps. I'm baffled about Rhok'delar just being thrown into Tier 1 while DK Rexxar is still in Tier 2, despite every single Rhok'delar deck i've seen is also running DK Rexxar. It merely shows how much of a joke this Tier list turned out to be nowadays....
Al'Akir is a good choice imo. I don't play even shaman but I play an elemental shaman running hagatha. Because of all the random spells you will often have elemental might or rockbiter weapon and be able to combo for high burst; furthermore, as a standard legendary he is a very safe craft.
I wouldn't call a card that has barely seen play during the last 2 years "a very safe craft". That would make King Mukla and King Krush, very safe crafts to and i've regularly seen people advise them as safe dusts.
Lets put it this way, a card is either a safe craft or a safe dust.
I have him and last time i've seen him played regularly in a decent deck is like 2 years ago when shaman still was a decent class. I didn't own him back then and when i would ask if i should craft him people still struggled to say yes.
Right now i truly struggle with this "there is a deck thats using him" reasoning to put a card in a higher tier. Legendary Tier list should advise people what to do on expected future value, not just todays value and i regularly see this "he is used in this or that deck which is performing decent right now". To me that just isn't good reasoning to move certain cards to a higher tier.
No clue what is going on with Rhok'delar right now either, haven't been playing him a lot, but after release he was even kicked from the spell hunter that was created because of him. The card just wasn't good enough and i wonder if he currently is what is carrying the spell hunter.
But more surprisingly, the 2 new Paladin legendaries. I've been wondering about them ever since release. They have been top tier and i hardly ever see them played. Worse even, i've seen them played right after release, but outside of brawl with random generation i can't say i've seen them used. I just checked stats on hsreplay and i'm even more surprised.... What are they doing at the top of the tier list? Glass Knight has a play and winrate that should probably make it Tier4 at best. Liam might be tricky as his stats might look a lot like DK Rexxar who i always thought wasn't as terrible a card as his played winrate suggested, more because it often was a hail mary play that could turn a lost game into another win. I however think Liam isn't nearly as good as DK Rexxar was back then. With the nerfs odd Pally might become better, but before the nerfs it was even Pally that was clearly the better deck, hence you didn't really need to craft him to play Paladin.
This "Tier list" seems to have transformed into a "HYPE list". Any card that is used in some pro streamer's fun deck ends up being bumped because that streamers deck won some games at high level. Odds are in a month the card is back in the pits of oblivion and i think Al'Akir will be one of those.
Just ask yourself the question, did those top tier cards see play in recent tournaments? I checked America's summer playoff and didn't see Liam once.... Would you really advice a new player on a budget to dump the little amount of dust he has into that card as a long term value? I hope you won't....
TL'DR The tier list used to be a great reliable source for decision making, but this one turned into a hype list.
idk, i'm terrible at waiting :D i want my lord godfrey :D
Well, that sounds like a good reason to DE it. If you won't use Baku and do need Lord Godfrey, it would work.
About the nerf. You can't be sure Baku will get nerfed, so you might not get full dust anyway. They might change something else on Paladin without touching Baku.
I'm not a fan of DE'ing good legendaries and sometimes patience does pay out, but enjoying a card you really like right now is a nice thing to.
so i've dusted some stuff i don't need and i have enough for a legendary
playing wild dragon paladin and i'm thinking either ysera or wrathion. what do?
You do NOT craft Wrathion, that card has done badly lately.
why? at the very least he seems mildly better than the curator (who i dusted way back thinking that some kind of zoo abomination would never be useful or meta)
He is barely played and has a below 50% winrate. Never really seen play.
Crafting him is about as great a choice as the DE'ing of The Curator....
Quick question: which card is better for Spiteful Priest: Chameleos or Keleseth? Chameleos holds more value over time but Keleseth is a snowballing card imo that is useless if played in late game. Both are tier 2 rn and I think that Spiteful Priest is here to stay as a solid Tier 2 deck. Cheers!
I think Keleseth is more important. With Chameleos, its still RNG what happens and if you can play it.
Maybe its better to just create a Tier S for cards that are played in any deck.
Cards that end up in any deck, just like Gul'dan who would be played in all archetypes of its class. Tarim might not be played in every single Paladin deck, but he would fit in there to.
Not sure about any other cards to put in there, but i guess Patches would have been in there before his nerf.
1) "I do not want to hold the dust for two more months" You actually have to wait 1 month, because the expansion will be released mid-April.
Yeah, and when the new set is release we enter the "don't craft anything untill the meta is settled" phase which also takes about a month. So the guy is right actually.
Don't craft anything 2 months before release, don't craft anything 1 month after release, so with 4 months between releases there is like a 1 month period when people are allowed to craft stuff. Unless ofcourse there is a nerf during that period, like with patches etc, then you also shouldn't craft during that small 1 month window either....
Soon this will turn into a meme to...
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They all are evergreen and have been used recently...
There are many cards that are neither a safe craft, nor a safe dust.
I merely wanted to point out a card can't be both, guess that wasn't 100% clear when reading my post again.
Thats the goal of a crafting tier deck, people can create it after thinking things through and others who are new or don't want to put in that effort can use that info.
Changing a card to Tier 1 for being used in a deck that has been succesfull for 2 days isn't a sign of thinking things through.
Your response is merely putting words in my mouth and then complaining about the words YOU put in my mouth.
I just rather see a bit more info before changing a card to Tier 1 that has been Tier 3 for a long time and barely seen use for a while, but it fits perfect in a Hype list.
Well, you could try starting with a response to things i actually wrote....
DK Rexxar is used in more archetypes and is used in each deck Rhok'delar is also used, while as i pointed out, in the past Rhok'delar was even removed from the spell hunter decks as some other combo worked better.
DK Rexxar has been a staple in those decks back then and is obviously a staple in the current deck to, hence to me it seems obvious DK Rexxar is the more important card to Hunter.
Yet, you place Rhok'delar at Tier 1 and refer to DK as a card you expect to go there to.
Hence my response, which i still consider valid.
No point in me responding anymore as the current tier list is meant to be a hype list, so nowhere near the thing i expected it to be.
Sad as people who ask questions about improving their collection will still be directed here by mods who merge those threads in here and are fooled into crafting hype cards rather then the long term value cards they were asking about.
That list was closed and then this list was created.
Thats what i'm referring to when i point out the Tier list used to be different.
Therefor i say, a tier list should be about value, not about hype.
Throwing those hype cards into top tier based on the fact they are played in that deck merely makes them think crafting it is a good choice even when the card has been trash tier for 2 years and might become trash again soon after decks have been perfected.
I'm baffled about Rhok'delar just being thrown into Tier 1 while DK Rexxar is still in Tier 2, despite every single Rhok'delar deck i've seen is also running DK Rexxar.
It merely shows how much of a joke this Tier list turned out to be nowadays....
That would make King Mukla and King Krush, very safe crafts to and i've regularly seen people advise them as safe dusts.
Funny to see some discussion about Al'Akir.
I have him and last time i've seen him played regularly in a decent deck is like 2 years ago when shaman still was a decent class.
I didn't own him back then and when i would ask if i should craft him people still struggled to say yes.
Right now i truly struggle with this "there is a deck thats using him" reasoning to put a card in a higher tier.
Legendary Tier list should advise people what to do on expected future value, not just todays value and i regularly see this "he is used in this or that deck which is performing decent right now".
To me that just isn't good reasoning to move certain cards to a higher tier.
No clue what is going on with Rhok'delar right now either, haven't been playing him a lot, but after release he was even kicked from the spell hunter that was created because of him.
The card just wasn't good enough and i wonder if he currently is what is carrying the spell hunter.
But more surprisingly, the 2 new Paladin legendaries.
I've been wondering about them ever since release.
They have been top tier and i hardly ever see them played.
Worse even, i've seen them played right after release, but outside of brawl with random generation i can't say i've seen them used.
I just checked stats on hsreplay and i'm even more surprised....
What are they doing at the top of the tier list?
Glass Knight has a play and winrate that should probably make it Tier4 at best.
Liam might be tricky as his stats might look a lot like DK Rexxar who i always thought wasn't as terrible a card as his played winrate suggested, more because it often was a hail mary play that could turn a lost game into another win.
I however think Liam isn't nearly as good as DK Rexxar was back then.
With the nerfs odd Pally might become better, but before the nerfs it was even Pally that was clearly the better deck, hence you didn't really need to craft him to play Paladin.
This "Tier list" seems to have transformed into a "HYPE list".
Any card that is used in some pro streamer's fun deck ends up being bumped because that streamers deck won some games at high level.
Odds are in a month the card is back in the pits of oblivion and i think Al'Akir will be one of those.
Just ask yourself the question, did those top tier cards see play in recent tournaments?
I checked America's summer playoff and didn't see Liam once....
Would you really advice a new player on a budget to dump the little amount of dust he has into that card as a long term value?
I hope you won't....
TL'DR
The tier list used to be a great reliable source for decision making, but this one turned into a hype list.
If you won't use Baku and do need Lord Godfrey, it would work.
You can't be sure Baku will get nerfed, so you might not get full dust anyway.
They might change something else on Paladin without touching Baku.
Never really seen play.
It's currently one of the strongest cards in the game...
With Chameleos, its still RNG what happens and if you can play it.
Lower winrate, but some fun options.
Maybe its better to just create a Tier S for cards that are played in any deck.
Cards that end up in any deck, just like Gul'dan who would be played in all archetypes of its class.
Tarim might not be played in every single Paladin deck, but he would fit in there to.
Not sure about any other cards to put in there, but i guess Patches would have been in there before his nerf.
So the guy is right actually.
Unless ofcourse there is a nerf during that period, like with patches etc, then you also shouldn't craft during that small 1 month window either....