So I look at Warrior, with its armor mechanic that helps you live in end game. (A lot of player diss the armor, but it's really nice.) I look at Shaman with its totems and Windfury mechanic. Mage has its 1 damage to help enrage creatures (if it likes), and tons of mass removal. Then we come to Rogue. This is only my tenth day playing Hearthstone, so any player that disagrees with me, please post specifics. But my impression is miracle Rogue is weak versus rush and inconsistent, and that ramp rogue (if that's the term for it) relies on mostly vanilla 2-for-1 card effects like Harvest Golem, Loot Hoarder, Azure Drake (even if the card gets killed, you still get something out of it even if just another card). The thing is, vanilla rogue is so vanilla. I'd like to play a Rogue deck that plays Rogue cards or relies on a Rogue mechanic.
The following is purposed to building a distinctly Rogue deck that uses distinctly Rogue cards. It's going to sound pedantic, but I'm not a pedo. (ha ha small pun there). My purpose is to lay out my reasoning step by step, so others that disagree may point to specific parts and say "it breaks down there, so all the following doesn't work",
It seems to me that although Rogue has some really nice cards like Patient Assassin and Vanish, the Combo and Stealth mechanics of the deck have not contributed to a Rogue archetype that's competitive - or at least I haven't seen one. So I'm going to try to do something that I'm sure has been tried before, but maybe throw a few different ideas at it.
Again, keeping in mind I don't necessarily know what I'm talking about - the way I figure it, Stealth and Combo mechanics are both fundamentally flawed in terms of board control. With Stealth, you expend a card to *subtract* from board presence, and with Combo, you typically use a low-drop card at effective high-drop, with a useful effect that nonetheless doesn't contribute much to board control. For those saying "yes, but Eviscerate, well yes, of course, and Cold Blood too. But those are single-target spells. You use a card, you destroy a card, you don't get field advantage out of it, which is why vanilla ramp relies on vanilla card-advantage cards.
Rogue also is quite weak against weenie rush, with cards such as Fan of Knives dealing only one, which doesn't do enough after Coldlight Seer lands never mind Young Priestess 2-drop. A Rogue player can combo Blade Flurry with Deadly Poison, but getting that combination is unreliable in my opinion.
So ideally, I'm looking for a deck that has low-drop cards to counter the rush, that has cards that have huge game-breaking power when used mid or late game to counteract the inefficiency of Vanish. I'll put the candidates below. Note especially that with so many cards devoted to Vanish effects &c, the deck cannot hope to maintain board "control" in terms of expecting to reliably have minions on the field. It's a very up and down sort of deck, the idea (necessitated by the loss of cost efficiency by running Vanish) being to offer light resistance to enemy buildup, then throw big game-changing swings.
Betrayal Not used as a staple in many decks, because it's quite conditional. But it *should* help fend off a rush, and I think it belongs.
Mind Control Tech. Good against rush, but I don't think it works well versus control. Still, I considered it.
Nat Pagle. Another winner, I think, for a non-rush deck.
Big Game Hunter. Because Assassinate is a 5-drop which doesn't help against weenie decks, and because this deck needs an answer to fatties, particularly early Giant drops &c. Patient Assassin is nice and all, but it can easily be taken out by random or mass damage spells. BGH is like a conditional cheap Assassinate that can walk around and beat stuff up.
Alarm-o-Bot. I heard about Stealth-o-bot, and I was like "yay! Rogue deck!" But in practice, I think it's just too conditional and inconsistent. If Alarm-o-bot works, it summons something on the 4-drop, which can't attack when it comes out, and I *think* the card's Battlecry doesn't work if it has one. (Anyone know?) But more importantly, you have to pretty much load the deck with defensive spells and huge minions, so the deck is very inconsistent.
Then it gets a little weird. It's a very greedy deck. It tries to stop the rush, but it also tries to board control against control type decks, generating tokens to help that end. There's room for a lot of "incorrect" cards, like I can figure using Preparation in combination with Vanish against rush decks, or in combination with Sprint, but I think in practice that combination is situational and requires precise card combination which may well not happen. But Preparation-Vanish also lets a lot of other combinations work out, like recalling BGH for another potential BattleCry (or perhaps Tinkmaster Overspark).
Thoughts? Again, I figure on requiring low-drop cards, and want to make use of distinctly Rogue elements for the deck, while also being fairly competitive against both rush and control.
If you see a post that you find objectionable, report it, it helps keep the forum clean. But be aware people are allowed a lot of latitude.
If you find my posts to be rude, objectionable, or whatever, well, I got tired of writing polite TL; DR (Too Long, Didn't Read) posts at crybaby whiners. So now I just make it short and nasty.
If you find that funny, well and good. If you find that sad, that's even better.
Alright so, I read this in bits and pieces inbetween doing things ... But what I read was basicly: These cards arn't used... They should be... So im going to build a deck around them. Now if thats really what was said, the cards that are not used, are bad. Thats why they are never used.
I am liking the look of this deck as the only deck that I have used vanish in was a crappy mill based deck. The Malygos as finisher is nice (Headcrack!). I also love the Coldlight Oracle with vanish, that was about the only time that the mill deck would win. The one thing that I would wonder about are the saps. I just don't know if they are effective against rush and I don't know if the deck is rush enough to use them effectively against control... just a thought but I'll have to try this deck out when I got time! Thanks for the list!
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So I look at Warrior, with its armor mechanic that helps you live in end game. (A lot of player diss the armor, but it's really nice.) I look at Shaman with its totems and Windfury mechanic. Mage has its 1 damage to help enrage creatures (if it likes), and tons of mass removal. Then we come to Rogue. This is only my tenth day playing Hearthstone, so any player that disagrees with me, please post specifics. But my impression is miracle Rogue is weak versus rush and inconsistent, and that ramp rogue (if that's the term for it) relies on mostly vanilla 2-for-1 card effects like Harvest Golem, Loot Hoarder, Azure Drake (even if the card gets killed, you still get something out of it even if just another card). The thing is, vanilla rogue is so vanilla. I'd like to play a Rogue deck that plays Rogue cards or relies on a Rogue mechanic.
The following is purposed to building a distinctly Rogue deck that uses distinctly Rogue cards. It's going to sound pedantic, but I'm not a pedo. (ha ha small pun there). My purpose is to lay out my reasoning step by step, so others that disagree may point to specific parts and say "it breaks down there, so all the following doesn't work",
It seems to me that although Rogue has some really nice cards like Patient Assassin and Vanish, the Combo and Stealth mechanics of the deck have not contributed to a Rogue archetype that's competitive - or at least I haven't seen one. So I'm going to try to do something that I'm sure has been tried before, but maybe throw a few different ideas at it.
Again, keeping in mind I don't necessarily know what I'm talking about - the way I figure it, Stealth and Combo mechanics are both fundamentally flawed in terms of board control. With Stealth, you expend a card to *subtract* from board presence, and with Combo, you typically use a low-drop card at effective high-drop, with a useful effect that nonetheless doesn't contribute much to board control. For those saying "yes, but Eviscerate, well yes, of course, and Cold Blood too. But those are single-target spells. You use a card, you destroy a card, you don't get field advantage out of it, which is why vanilla ramp relies on vanilla card-advantage cards.
Rogue also is quite weak against weenie rush, with cards such as Fan of Knives dealing only one, which doesn't do enough after Coldlight Seer lands never mind Young Priestess 2-drop. A Rogue player can combo Blade Flurry with Deadly Poison, but getting that combination is unreliable in my opinion.
So ideally, I'm looking for a deck that has low-drop cards to counter the rush, that has cards that have huge game-breaking power when used mid or late game to counteract the inefficiency of Vanish. I'll put the candidates below. Note especially that with so many cards devoted to Vanish effects &c, the deck cannot hope to maintain board "control" in terms of expecting to reliably have minions on the field. It's a very up and down sort of deck, the idea (necessitated by the loss of cost efficiency by running Vanish) being to offer light resistance to enemy buildup, then throw big game-changing swings.
Betrayal Not used as a staple in many decks, because it's quite conditional. But it *should* help fend off a rush, and I think it belongs.
Mind Control Tech. Good against rush, but I don't think it works well versus control. Still, I considered it.
Doomsayer. I think it's a winner.
Nat Pagle. Another winner, I think, for a non-rush deck.
Big Game Hunter. Because Assassinate is a 5-drop which doesn't help against weenie decks, and because this deck needs an answer to fatties, particularly early Giant drops &c. Patient Assassin is nice and all, but it can easily be taken out by random or mass damage spells. BGH is like a conditional cheap Assassinate that can walk around and beat stuff up.
Harvest Golem. And Loot Hoarder.
Alarm-o-Bot. I heard about Stealth-o-bot, and I was like "yay! Rogue deck!" But in practice, I think it's just too conditional and inconsistent. If Alarm-o-bot works, it summons something on the 4-drop, which can't attack when it comes out, and I *think* the card's Battlecry doesn't work if it has one. (Anyone know?) But more importantly, you have to pretty much load the deck with defensive spells and huge minions, so the deck is very inconsistent.
Master of Disguise and Conceal. The Stealth mechanic.
Probably *not* Questing Adventurer It's nice, but I don't think the effect is big enough.
Twilight Drake for anti rush. Possibly. Possibly not, because the deck as I figure it only has one Silence target, and this is it.
Violet Teacher5 toughness lets it survive most mass damage if Stealthed, and it can generate tokens pretty quickly.
Gadgetzan Auctioneer is a nice card, but given that this deck has projected problems against weenies, I think perhaps Acolyte of Pain and/or Azure Drake
Hogger, but I don't like 4 toughness. Too easy to destroy with mass damage.
Illidan Stormrage
Vanish, although very possibly not.
Then it gets a little weird. It's a very greedy deck. It tries to stop the rush, but it also tries to board control against control type decks, generating tokens to help that end. There's room for a lot of "incorrect" cards, like I can figure using Preparation in combination with Vanish against rush decks, or in combination with Sprint, but I think in practice that combination is situational and requires precise card combination which may well not happen. But Preparation-Vanish also lets a lot of other combinations work out, like recalling BGH for another potential BattleCry (or perhaps Tinkmaster Overspark).
Thoughts? Again, I figure on requiring low-drop cards, and want to make use of distinctly Rogue elements for the deck, while also being fairly competitive against both rush and control.
If you see a post that you find objectionable, report it, it helps keep the forum clean. But be aware people are allowed a lot of latitude.
If you find my posts to be rude, objectionable, or whatever, well, I got tired of writing polite TL; DR (Too Long, Didn't Read) posts at crybaby whiners. So now I just make it short and nasty.
If you find that funny, well and good. If you find that sad, that's even better.
Alright so, I read this in bits and pieces inbetween doing things ... But what I read was basicly: These cards arn't used... They should be... So im going to build a deck around them. Now if thats really what was said, the cards that are not used, are bad. Thats why they are never used.
I am liking the look of this deck as the only deck that I have used vanish in was a crappy mill based deck. The Malygos as finisher is nice (Headcrack!). I also love the Coldlight Oracle with vanish, that was about the only time that the mill deck would win. The one thing that I would wonder about are the saps. I just don't know if they are effective against rush and I don't know if the deck is rush enough to use them effectively against control... just a thought but I'll have to try this deck out when I got time! Thanks for the list!