Hi i was playing with my elemental shaman(i posted this deck), i won two games in a row then a skilled sillas OTK warrior appeared, this guy literally had all answers in curve felt impossible to win i played well but in vain. That was so frustrating, then i send a friend request to this skilled gamer and the guy said me "i won because im a skill gamer". I thought this theory, blizzard wants you think you're a good player when you're lucky? I think is very possible. Do you think luck is determinant in some games?
Yesterday I played against Big Priest. I had 6 cards in hand. One was the coin. I also had Devolve, Plague of Murlocs, Hex and Revolve which hard countered my opponent's strategy.
Good draws and plain RNG cards oftentimes have a significant impact on who will win. On the other hand, you can make mistakes, such as missing lethal, taking extra damage, missing damage, trading too much or too little, using your resources inefficiently, burning your answers too early, not anticipating taunts etc. etc.
There are times when it comes down to luck, and times when it doesn't. But from my experience with the Hearthstone community, everyone has a different idea about what "skill" means and how much it matters. It's a contentious topic and the debates never get anywhere. And as far as the developers' intent is concerned, they said they wanted to reduce randomness a little bit with this year's expansions, but they certainly don't mean to eliminate it from the game altogether.
Because everyone has a different idea about skill, boasting with it rings hollow to me. But if you want to attribute your perfect opening hand, perfect draws and that gamewinning Fireball in Arena coming from an Evocation generated by a Steward of Scrolls generated by a Primordial Studies generated by a Wandmaker all to your "skill", be my guest.
I don't know how your game went, but the player you talked to was either ironic or an idiot provoking you. In some cases, you can probably say that you won because you made the right decision, but it will also matter how lucky or unlucky your opponent was. So, no win is 100% based on skill, and certainly not in a lopsided matchup (yet another factor).
Luck is everywhere in this life. I think about this specially when a I'm playing control warlock vs other control warlock, usually the one who draws Tikatus first and luckily burn their Jaraxxus win. So you are depending on draw properly which is 100% RNG. If you draw well and your enemy doesn't, you can win easily.
But luck doesn't automatically win games ALL THE TIME. In the same example, imagine the enemy doesn't keep Jaraxxus in their mulligan and you burn it with Tikatus. They just played wrong so in that case they lost cause they played bad, not because of luck.
Most of druid's decks are an example of luck. Playing token druid, if you draw luckily you can make an extreme strong turn 1/2 or 3, making you win the game, but that doesn't happend all the time, otherwise that'll be OP, so it's a bad design.
Yes there is RNG involved in hearthstone. But it's a coping mechanism that people use that seem to struggle with their ranks that luck is all you need. If that was REALLY the case, how come it's always the same group of people that always get on top of the leaderboards?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ * Record holder for fastest rank 50 - legend f2p run (15:12 hours) * ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
Yes there is RNG involved in hearthstone. But it's a coping mechanism that people use that seem to struggle with their ranks that luck is all you need. If that was REALLY the case, how come it's always the same group of people that always get on top of the leaderboards?
Ladder is all about quantity not quality. It's always the same group of people because those people play the game way more than your average guy.
A person with a 51% win rate deck/skill can get a higher rank than a person with a 60% win rate deck/skill, if he plays more games.
Luck is all you need, because TIME is all you need. The more time you invest, the less lucky you need to be in order to climb. So in a way, luck is more important to casual and low kill players, but it's still the primary factor that helps high skill players climb ladder.
Anyway, luck is the essence of card games, without luck and RNG a card game is merely a math exercise and victory is only deciced by the biggest math brain. I don't understand people who complain about luck, but I also don't understand people who think luck is anecdotal when literally every game is vastly different because of mechanics you can't control, like draw order, match making, card generation and random effects.
That's true in ranked you can play a lot games, so bad luck games don't affect to much. But look in grand masters you only play 5 games and luck can be very determinant great players can have bad results like bunnyhoppor or new grandmasters players can have good like tinchohs, so competitive is affected because luck and make new players that wants to try in competitive(like me) less attractive.
Luck is definitely a factor. Sometimes you generate the perfect answer with the perfect curve, sometimes you draw the 10 highest cost cards in your deck as your first 10 cards and can't play anything until turn 6. It's absolutely possible to win or lose games based entirely on luck, with no skill involved. These games are a tiny minority though, and most games have an element of skill to them with which you can overcome a luck disadvantage if you play well enough. In fact, playing around your opponent getting incredibly lucky IS an element of skill. As an extreme example, if you know there's one Mind Control Tech in your opponent's deck, they're topdecking, you have 3 minions onboard and 8 health then you don't play King Krush as your 4th because you're giving them an incredibly unlikely out if you do. Obviously that's ridiculously specific, but if you watch top players they think about stuff like "what happens if he Devolving Missiles and hits exactly these three things? Can I afford to play around exactly that?". The fact that luck is a skill-testing factor is something people miss far too often. I love this: it really raises the skill ceiling, and it makes each game unique.
Thaaaat said, Hearthstone has historically relied too hard on luck, which means too many games are either unwinnable due to highrolls or require far too much skill to overcome said highrolls (and yes - this is a bad thing. You can't expect everyone to demonstrate world finalist level play every single game in order for it to be fun). It's a matter of scale.
Of course its a luck game. I've beaten Legend players when I was terrible. Its all about luck. Of course there is skill in what you do and plan for. Bu5 you can't fight bad hands and the wrong draws.
I personally think my luck sucks. I usually have a bad hand and end up losing the "rock paper scissor" match ups. I plan to face aggro but its not. All that being said, I still enjoy Hearthstone.
Before anything about luck, you really shouldn’t be posting opponents names and caps of your chats. I also despise players that get tilted when they lose and need to friend request and trash talk, it makes it impossible to add a worthy opponent to your friend list after a match.
Luck in HS can be most evident in RNG cards, right now what comes to mind is what oh my yogg changes a two cost spell into. It can be a devastating removal on the opponents creatures or a huge buff for an opponent. The scenario of what you are describing with “drawing perfect” isn’t as much luck as skill. There is a generous mulligan in this game and you can easily count the 30 cards in your deck to know which ones to play on curve and when to use/hold removal. What it sounds like to me is that you were playing one of the worst decks right now and your opponent was playing a reactive deck with a proactive win condition.
Luck is definitely a factor like in any card game but skill is much more important than most people think. My brother plays hearthstone pretty casually and he is around a d10-d5 lvl player. I play hs a lot more and have reached legend a dozen times by now. Whenever we play Whizbang decks against each other I have around 70% winrate or so. Also...whenever I watch him play I see him throwing so many games with misplays and sometimes he doesnt even realize it. I suspect there are a lot of these ,,perfect,, players that unknowingly misplay and then blame bad luck.
I mean, in most card games (hearthstone included) Luck does play a large part. but as the saying goes, "play the hand you're dealt". Hearthstone is about saving answers, playing only when needed, and not wasting a single resource.
I played an Arena Game against a preist this morning that really shocked me. one we were both playing our best, trying desperately to outvalue the other by a single mana. he kept playing around my Vanessa, which kept me from taking the board until he eventually ran out of answers one card before me. it was one of the closest games of Hearthstone I've played in awhile.
Sure, there are times you just don't get the draws, but when I compare Hearthstone to something like Magic the Gathering that barely ever happens. you can usually do SOMETHING in hearthstone, which I think makes it a good game.
I didn't post his name #XXXX so i think isn't a problem. I didn't get tilted i only want to know his opinion about that game, he said he won because skill but was luck a lot, so I'm used to lose because bad luck i don't get tilted anymore.
Honestly Hearthstone is a game with one of the smallest overall skill cap. I don't want to be rude to anyone, but that is something I myself realized some time ago. Obviously there is a certain margin of skill that you can learn and practice to become better at Hearthstone, but compared to other games, that aspect is incredibly underwhelming in terms of it's importance and impact on the gameplay. In short, I cannot say if it's a good thing or a bad thing, but luck pays a huge role and kind of overshadows the players' skill involvement.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Hi i was playing with my elemental shaman(i posted this deck), i won two games in a row then a skilled sillas OTK warrior appeared, this guy literally had all answers in curve felt impossible to win i played well but in vain. That was so frustrating, then i send a friend request to this skilled gamer and the guy said me "i won because im a skill gamer". I thought this theory, blizzard wants you think you're a good player when you're lucky? I think is very possible. Do you think luck is determinant in some games?
Og course luck will win you games. But as Björn Borg (famous tennis player) said: The more i practice the luckier I get
Silver Hand Recruit
Luck is the most important factor of ALL Hearthstone games. Draw order is random. Draw order dictates everything else.
blad you manz get bare lucky...manz like me gotta rely on sik skillz
Yesterday I played against Big Priest. I had 6 cards in hand. One was the coin. I also had Devolve, Plague of Murlocs, Hex and Revolve which hard countered my opponent's strategy.
Luck was my co-pilot. :)
Good draws and plain RNG cards oftentimes have a significant impact on who will win. On the other hand, you can make mistakes, such as missing lethal, taking extra damage, missing damage, trading too much or too little, using your resources inefficiently, burning your answers too early, not anticipating taunts etc. etc.
There are times when it comes down to luck, and times when it doesn't. But from my experience with the Hearthstone community, everyone has a different idea about what "skill" means and how much it matters. It's a contentious topic and the debates never get anywhere. And as far as the developers' intent is concerned, they said they wanted to reduce randomness a little bit with this year's expansions, but they certainly don't mean to eliminate it from the game altogether.
Because everyone has a different idea about skill, boasting with it rings hollow to me. But if you want to attribute your perfect opening hand, perfect draws and that gamewinning Fireball in Arena coming from an Evocation generated by a Steward of Scrolls generated by a Primordial Studies generated by a Wandmaker all to your "skill", be my guest.
I don't know how your game went, but the player you talked to was either ironic or an idiot provoking you. In some cases, you can probably say that you won because you made the right decision, but it will also matter how lucky or unlucky your opponent was. So, no win is 100% based on skill, and certainly not in a lopsided matchup (yet another factor).
Luck is everywhere in this life. I think about this specially when a I'm playing control warlock vs other control warlock, usually the one who draws Tikatus first and luckily burn their Jaraxxus win. So you are depending on draw properly which is 100% RNG. If you draw well and your enemy doesn't, you can win easily.
But luck doesn't automatically win games ALL THE TIME. In the same example, imagine the enemy doesn't keep Jaraxxus in their mulligan and you burn it with Tikatus. They just played wrong so in that case they lost cause they played bad, not because of luck.
Most of druid's decks are an example of luck. Playing token druid, if you draw luckily you can make an extreme strong turn 1/2 or 3, making you win the game, but that doesn't happend all the time, otherwise that'll be OP, so it's a bad design.
Yes there is RNG involved in hearthstone. But it's a coping mechanism that people use that seem to struggle with their ranks that luck is all you need. If that was REALLY the case, how come it's always the same group of people that always get on top of the leaderboards?
༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ * Record holder for fastest rank 50 - legend f2p run (15:12 hours) * ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/general-discussion/234323-f2p-rank-50-legend-in-15-12-hours
Ladder is all about quantity not quality. It's always the same group of people because those people play the game way more than your average guy.
A person with a 51% win rate deck/skill can get a higher rank than a person with a 60% win rate deck/skill, if he plays more games.
Luck is all you need, because TIME is all you need. The more time you invest, the less lucky you need to be in order to climb. So in a way, luck is more important to casual and low kill players, but it's still the primary factor that helps high skill players climb ladder.
Anyway, luck is the essence of card games, without luck and RNG a card game is merely a math exercise and victory is only deciced by the biggest math brain. I don't understand people who complain about luck, but I also don't understand people who think luck is anecdotal when literally every game is vastly different because of mechanics you can't control, like draw order, match making, card generation and random effects.
That's true in ranked you can play a lot games, so bad luck games don't affect to much. But look in grand masters you only play 5 games and luck can be very determinant great players can have bad results like bunnyhoppor or new grandmasters players can have good like tinchohs, so competitive is affected because luck and make new players that wants to try in competitive(like me) less attractive.
Problem is luck is too important in this game.
In other card games, luck affects only draws, but here almost every card has a random component that can win or lose you the game.
I wish they removed the RNG element TBH, just for a year, and see how players react.
Luck is definitely a factor. Sometimes you generate the perfect answer with the perfect curve, sometimes you draw the 10 highest cost cards in your deck as your first 10 cards and can't play anything until turn 6. It's absolutely possible to win or lose games based entirely on luck, with no skill involved. These games are a tiny minority though, and most games have an element of skill to them with which you can overcome a luck disadvantage if you play well enough. In fact, playing around your opponent getting incredibly lucky IS an element of skill. As an extreme example, if you know there's one Mind Control Tech in your opponent's deck, they're topdecking, you have 3 minions onboard and 8 health then you don't play King Krush as your 4th because you're giving them an incredibly unlikely out if you do. Obviously that's ridiculously specific, but if you watch top players they think about stuff like "what happens if he Devolving Missiles and hits exactly these three things? Can I afford to play around exactly that?". The fact that luck is a skill-testing factor is something people miss far too often. I love this: it really raises the skill ceiling, and it makes each game unique.
Thaaaat said, Hearthstone has historically relied too hard on luck, which means too many games are either unwinnable due to highrolls or require far too much skill to overcome said highrolls (and yes - this is a bad thing. You can't expect everyone to demonstrate world finalist level play every single game in order for it to be fun). It's a matter of scale.
Of course its a luck game. I've beaten Legend players when I was terrible. Its all about luck. Of course there is skill in what you do and plan for. Bu5 you can't fight bad hands and the wrong draws.
I personally think my luck sucks. I usually have a bad hand and end up losing the "rock paper scissor" match ups. I plan to face aggro but its not. All that being said, I still enjoy Hearthstone.
Before anything about luck, you really shouldn’t be posting opponents names and caps of your chats. I also despise players that get tilted when they lose and need to friend request and trash talk, it makes it impossible to add a worthy opponent to your friend list after a match.
Luck in HS can be most evident in RNG cards, right now what comes to mind is what oh my yogg changes a two cost spell into. It can be a devastating removal on the opponents creatures or a huge buff for an opponent. The scenario of what you are describing with “drawing perfect” isn’t as much luck as skill. There is a generous mulligan in this game and you can easily count the 30 cards in your deck to know which ones to play on curve and when to use/hold removal. What it sounds like to me is that you were playing one of the worst decks right now and your opponent was playing a reactive deck with a proactive win condition.
Luck is definitely a factor like in any card game but skill is much more important than most people think. My brother plays hearthstone pretty casually and he is around a d10-d5 lvl player. I play hs a lot more and have reached legend a dozen times by now. Whenever we play Whizbang decks against each other I have around 70% winrate or so. Also...whenever I watch him play I see him throwing so many games with misplays and sometimes he doesnt even realize it. I suspect there are a lot of these ,,perfect,, players that unknowingly misplay and then blame bad luck.
I mean, in most card games (hearthstone included) Luck does play a large part. but as the saying goes, "play the hand you're dealt". Hearthstone is about saving answers, playing only when needed, and not wasting a single resource.
I played an Arena Game against a preist this morning that really shocked me. one we were both playing our best, trying desperately to outvalue the other by a single mana. he kept playing around my Vanessa, which kept me from taking the board until he eventually ran out of answers one card before me. it was one of the closest games of Hearthstone I've played in awhile.
Sure, there are times you just don't get the draws, but when I compare Hearthstone to something like Magic the Gathering that barely ever happens. you can usually do SOMETHING in hearthstone, which I think makes it a good game.
I didn't post his name #XXXX so i think isn't a problem. I didn't get tilted i only want to know his opinion about that game, he said he won because skill but was luck a lot, so I'm used to lose because bad luck i don't get tilted anymore.
They can reduce RNG too, the competitive would be more interesting if they do it.
I think we need to establish a baseline here. Please can someone define how much RNG is the right amount?
Honestly Hearthstone is a game with one of the smallest overall skill cap. I don't want to be rude to anyone, but that is something I myself realized some time ago. Obviously there is a certain margin of skill that you can learn and practice to become better at Hearthstone, but compared to other games, that aspect is incredibly underwhelming in terms of it's importance and impact on the gameplay. In short, I cannot say if it's a good thing or a bad thing, but luck pays a huge role and kind of overshadows the players' skill involvement.