Am I the only one who thinks the wording is strange here?
He definetly doesn't sound like a nice guy to have a close relationship with, bu the described facts don't merit the word 'abuse' right? Even if all of them are true.
Unless you mean emotional abuse in which case you can make a strong case. But I'm not even sure I'd suspend a player for those actions. Curious what you guys think about it!
I'll be perfectly honest, I didn't read the allegations. It's not because the details aren't relevant, but the way the situation was portrayed, it was just a he said she said situation. So, kind of regardless of the severity or lack thereof of the allegations, for me it revolves around a question of one person's word being enough to destroy another's career.
Just for the record, I actually agree with the folks who are mentioning Zalae's interactions with his own fans as toxic and at some points downright disgusting. However, I'm not a fan and apparently a decent number of folks were. So, these observations have zero relevance to the question at hand, unless you're going to make the absolutely absurd leap that a guy who doesn't treat his fans as you would have him treat them is clearly an abuser of women.
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Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
Honestly the tweet from the girlfriend sounds like a vengeance after breakup. If this is enough to be fired from the job without any evidence then god bless us.
Alright i did read all of that she said and i don't wanna play favorites here but some things sound made up (even tho they could be true) but for real if he did that it's kinda psycho in my eyes. I guess we have to wait and see whats he gonna say about it
Wait what ? What does eSports even had to do with this ? Whats next ? Getting kicked out from from any where even if you have a car crash ?
Now that is a definite slippery slope fallacy argument right there. Domestic abuse and car crashes are drastically different things and making a comparison of those two is belittling domestic abuse.
As far as what Esports has to do with this, they're very much so connected. Zalae is a member of Hearthstone Esports, thus he is working underneath Hearthstone, acting as a face, a representation of Hearthstone, even if he isn't directly employed by Hearthstone. It's the same thing that the NFL has done, suspending players after child abuse or domestic violence cases. I could add several other cases but don't want to due to political charges that they can build as of right now. Anyway, it comes down to the fact that they (Zalae, in this case) is a public figure representing a privately owned company (Hearthstone, in this case) and so, thanks to laws (at least in the US) it is within every right for Activision-Blizzard to suspend Zalae, even just over allegations, as they are a private company and he is currently representing something that they do not want to represent. They're putting him on a temporary leave effectively right now due to the allegations, and should he go to court and prove true, I believe they should permanently ban him from their Esports. For now, though, he is on leave due to an allegation, and will likely be either unsuspended or banned upon trial. It's the same thing that happens through just about every other organization or business and it's well within their legal rights to do so.
I just had to log in to say: oh my God! In democratic country everyone is innocent until proven guilty. With their move, they just cut him. im not saying that he is innocent, but to do something like this, until it is proven.... just shows whats wrong with society , and this whole "cancel" culture. and i cant agree more with the dude you are quoting.
Its looks very fabricated and i dont like it when just any organisation/association/etc comes fourth with all sort of penalization before any investigation has been conducted by authorities. They need to learn their place, this is authorities responsibility and not a no one from Hearthstone eSports who happened to be today in the office to take ``measures``.
On other hand i personally all i care is to see good card slinging in tournaments and i dont care if they ones who do it must come tied up like in sanatorium with an assistant that operate the laptop in their place to prevent them damaging and killing everything in sight. But that`s me.
Good to know that you can become unemployable over allegations.
Theoretically, what will happen if these allegations are dropped, or remain unproven? Will Blizzard reverse their decision, or will they keep it to save face? Would that be acceptable (since apparently companies existing to maintain their reputation is a reasonable excuse to do whatever they want)?
I mean yeah, this has been true for a long time. It sucks, but companies (especially larger ones) have a lot of power over their employees and trying to challenge them legally is often a fools errand unless it's something on the scale of a class action lawsuit.
For the record, Zalae is no Blizzard employee. Your statement is true, though, in general. It's a sad truth. But Blizzard has made this clear in their tournament rules, as far as I am aware. Not saying that Blizzard's decision is right or wrong by any means, but they have to take these accusations seriously at the moment. If the accusations will be proven wrong, I don't see a reason why they shouldn't invite him again in the future. The guy's career isn't really over apparently.
Nobody in this forum knows what actually happened, so speculating about whether this was made up or not is pointless.
I have only watched Zalae's stream once during a bundle giveaway and he was a bit overreacting because people were just spamming giveaway codes all the time (I understand the frustration, though). So I can see why people don't think he is particularly nice, but that doesn't say much about this incidence.
Since when Blizzard has become ethical? Or should I interpret this as 'reputation management'?
Observing their handling of the HS-community.
Dividing the player base in a target audience and a non-target audience.
No auto-squelch so the target audience can have 'fun' of BM - how ethical is that?
Printing cards so wildly powerful that you can't loose with a sense of dignity and skill. We all know Tickatus. A control suppressing political card to keep the game aggressive and mindless, bending to the wishes of the target audience. How ethical.
Keeping RPS too steep aka polarized. Fun for a mindless gameplay.
After initial cashing in on OP-cards they 'balance change'. How brave.
The abhorrent morale behind card design with an Iskarian smile is profoundly at odds with the 'ethical' posturing over Zalae's apparent transgressions. Blizzard has no ethical record. Suspending Zalae how bad he might have behaved is just another form of repulsive marketing. Cancel culture at its best.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
We make our world significant through the courage of our questions and the depth of our answers.
It's fairly predictable whenever this happens that you see a lot of folks saying that a corporation has the right to do something as if that's the end of the argument.
Lots of folks sit secure in the knowledge this will never happen to them because not only do they not engage in such abhorrent behavior, they would never be stupid enough to put themselves in a position where they could even be accused of such.
Hopefully, for their sake, they will never be shown how absolutely naive this position is. As a person who has had to fight thru several years of unfounded accusations while in school and very nearly lost hundreds of thousands of dollars and years of work to a university's "right" to toss anyone out who faces an accusation, regardless o the specifics or foundation of said accusation, I have to say that anyone can find themselves in this situation and when you do, get ready to find out that you in fact have no friends, no confidants, and very little influence with which to combat the situation.
To be honest, at this point the only thing to do is to hope and pray that Zalae was guilty of the accusation. I know how that sounds, but given that punishment has already been visited, it's really the only just state of being. We used to embrace the concept "better to let ten guilty men go free than punish an innocent," and no, that concept was never meant to be applied ONLY to government. Now, accusations are assumed true unless you happen to occupy positions of power in one political party (not intending to open a political discussion, it's just that in the past 5 years, there have only been two individuals who I've seen been given the benefit of the doubt by the mob . . . one a former President and one the current President).
Someone brought up the example of Johnny Depp. That's probably the worst of all the public examples we've seen, as nearly every piece of evidence points to the conclusion that Depp was not only innocent as an accused abuser, but in fact a fairly prolific victim of abuse. I prefer to look at the example of Chris Hardwick, a man who spent years ultimately successfully defending himself from these accusations, though in the end his career was all but destroyed and the losses, both socially and financially, were barely countable. Hardwick's story shows exactly the combination of luck, resources, and effort needed to salvage a life once these accusations take off, and it's important to realize that he wasn't half guilty, or a little guilty. By everything we know, he wasn't remotely guilty.
Anyway, hope it never happens to you. You'll be singing a different tune by then, but no one will care.
EDIT: I do find it hilarious in a very sad way that folks who will lay down some of the most horrid insults toward Blizzard when they don't like a card game's meta are suddenly cool with it when the same company plays sole arbiter of punishment with a person's livelihood.
I don’t see how your example is any different. Johnny Depp was in fact found GUILTY in some cases and unable to appeal the trial. Yes there was a lot of evidence of his innocence but it’s still relevant and he is still fighting to actually be proven innocent.
I'm not understanding the position businesses are taking of terminating employees based on unproven allegations.
Or in this case, kicking a player from the tournament based on unproven allegations.
If he did it, blacklist him from all HS events for life.
Right now we have an allegation. It should be taken seriously, it should be investigated, and the truth should be determined. Hearthstone chose to jump ahead of that and go straight to the punishment phase based on just the allegation.
Think about this for a moment, and personalize it. You've worked hard at something your entire professional career. Now, you are about to get your big shot. An ex girlfriend/boyfriend, ex wife/husband, whatever, suddenly comes out with an allegation of wrongdoing on your part. You are then, with no proof and no chance to defend yourself, completely shut out from the job/career/opportunity that you have pursued for so long and dedicated yourself to. Does that sound fair? Does that sound right?
To me, it absolutely does not.
Give the man his day in court. If he is found guilty, bar him from all events. Strip him of titles if needed. Do not condemn him based on allegations, though. I'm disappointed in Blizzard, and society at large, as we are seeing more and more of these types of things happening.
It's fairly predictable whenever this happens that you see a lot of folks saying that a corporation has the right to do something as if that's the end of the argument.
Lots of folks sit secure in the knowledge this will never happen to them because not only do they not engage in such abhorrent behavior, they would never be stupid enough to put themselves in a position where they could even be accused of such.
Hopefully, for their sake, they will never be shown how absolutely naive this position is. As a person who has had to fight thru several years of unfounded accusations while in school and very nearly lost hundreds of thousands of dollars and years of work to a university's "right" to toss anyone out who faces an accusation, regardless o the specifics or foundation of said accusation, I have to say that anyone can find themselves in this situation and when you do, get ready to find out that you in fact have no friends, no confidants, and very little influence with which to combat the situation.
To be honest, at this point the only thing to do is to hope and pray that Zalae was guilty of the accusation. I know how that sounds, but given that punishment has already been visited, it's really the only just state of being. We used to embrace the concept "better to let ten guilty men go free than punish an innocent," and no, that concept was never meant to be applied ONLY to government. Now, accusations are assumed true unless you happen to occupy positions of power in one political party (not intending to open a political discussion, it's just that in the past 5 years, there have only been two individuals who I've seen been given the benefit of the doubt by the mob . . . one a former President and one the current President).
Someone brought up the example of Johnny Depp. That's probably the worst of all the public examples we've seen, as nearly every piece of evidence points to the conclusion that Depp was not only innocent as an accused abuser, but in fact a fairly prolific victim of abuse. I prefer to look at the example of Chris Hardwick, a man who spent years ultimately successfully defending himself from these accusations, though in the end his career was all but destroyed and the losses, both socially and financially, were barely countable. Hardwick's story shows exactly the combination of luck, resources, and effort needed to salvage a life once these accusations take off, and it's important to realize that he wasn't half guilty, or a little guilty. By everything we know, he wasn't remotely guilty.
Anyway, hope it never happens to you. You'll be singing a different tune by then, but no one will care.
EDIT: I do find it hilarious in a very sad way that folks who will lay down some of the most horrid insults toward Blizzard when they don't like a card game's meta are suddenly cool with it when the same company plays sole arbiter of punishment with a person's livelihood.
I don’t see how your example is any different. Johnny Depp was in fact found GUILTY in some cases and unable to appeal the trial. Yes there was a lot of evidence of his innocence but it’s still relevant and he is still fighting to actually be proven innocent.
I'm not posting to attack what you said, I just don't know if you meant Hardwick or Depp as "my example".
Hardwick wasn't found guilty of anything, he was fully exonerated. It just took years, hundreds of thousands of dollars if not millions in losses, and endless social stigma.
Depp at least had a finding of fact against him, even though it was a farce.
I'm not sure if that's what you meant or if you had something else in mind.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
It's fairly predictable whenever this happens that you see a lot of folks saying that a corporation has the right to do something as if that's the end of the argument.
I mean it is the end of the argument, unless you expect the average joe to somehow band up together enough support to change the status quo. It's not a matter of ethics or what is "right" it's literally just corporations having most of the power to do as they please in modern societies.
This was made public at the beginning of this year, it has been around the network for three months, while Zalae has been participating in tournaments and has been invited to events and streamings, and now, when we are hours of the start of the new season of Grandmasters, Blizzard takes action and kicks him out?
This was made public at the beginning of this year, it has been around the network for three months, while Zalae has been participating in tournaments and has been invited to events and streamings, and now, when we are hours of the start of the new season of Grandmasters, Blizzard takes action and kicks him out?
This baffles me as well. Did they just realize it now or what?
Yes it’s common for business to suspend people who have not been proven to do a crime. Even beyond businesses, it happens with cops and teachers who are accused of wrongdoing, which are government positions.
Yeah, I don't think cops getting the paid vacations for murdering people is quite the same as false accusations.
Esports follow the same principles as pretty much any other business, when you have many faces of the company and any one of them have a run in with the law they typically get terminated, you wouldn't want a rapist to tarnish your reputation.
However, people justifying this just by allegations is wrong. Cut the guy some slack and wait for his court appeal before jumping to conclusions, for all you know you could be pointing the finger at an innocent man.
I am not familiar with this case, or if it's true or not, but the result is really nothing new. It's the usual "cancel culture" and "me too" movement. This has been going on on social media sites for years, where someone gets accused of something, and it doesn't really matter if it's true or not, because the damage has been done, and the life of accused gets ruined. Forget about innocent until proven guilty. The business gets scared that non-customers are outraged, and thinks it makes them look bad, so they sweep things under the rug as fast as they can by separating themselves from the person in question. Not much you can do about it unless you're at the top of the food chain, where you'd be untouchable.
Yes it’s common for business to suspend people who have not been proven to do a crime. Even beyond businesses, it happens with cops and teachers who are accused of wrongdoing, which are government positions.
Yeah, I don't think cops getting the paid vacations for murdering people is quite the same as false accusations.
Not all cases of suspension involve killing someone, and also the cops are suspended regardless of being innocent or guilty, simply during investigation. If the cop is found innocent, it wasn’t murder, making your statement false. If it was actually murder, it means the cop was found guilty and will no longer be suspended but either face jail time or whatever punishment the judge sees fit. So no, they don’t get paid vacations after murdering someone, because that has to be proven. If you are simply against paid suspension, that is a separate issue, and one that I’d be inclined to agree with, or instead of being paid, just get subsidized for living expenses, like welfare.
I honestly couldn't care whether he gets a temporary suspension because he doesn't regularly post HS videos anymore. Feels like he needs some time off anyway, I'm sure his current girlfriend will find out in due time if the allegations are true.
I get some Heard Depp vibes from this.
I'll be perfectly honest, I didn't read the allegations. It's not because the details aren't relevant, but the way the situation was portrayed, it was just a he said she said situation. So, kind of regardless of the severity or lack thereof of the allegations, for me it revolves around a question of one person's word being enough to destroy another's career.
Just for the record, I actually agree with the folks who are mentioning Zalae's interactions with his own fans as toxic and at some points downright disgusting. However, I'm not a fan and apparently a decent number of folks were. So, these observations have zero relevance to the question at hand, unless you're going to make the absolutely absurd leap that a guy who doesn't treat his fans as you would have him treat them is clearly an abuser of women.
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
Honestly the tweet from the girlfriend sounds like a vengeance after breakup. If this is enough to be fired from the job without any evidence then god bless us.
Alright i did read all of that she said and i don't wanna play favorites here but some things sound made up (even tho they could be true) but for real if he did that it's kinda psycho in my eyes. I guess we have to wait and see whats he gonna say about it
Its looks very fabricated and i dont like it when just any organisation/association/etc comes fourth with all sort of penalization before any investigation has been conducted by authorities. They need to learn their place, this is authorities responsibility and not a no one from Hearthstone eSports who happened to be today in the office to take ``measures``.
On other hand i personally all i care is to see good card slinging in tournaments and i dont care if they ones who do it must come tied up like in sanatorium with an assistant that operate the laptop in their place to prevent them damaging and killing everything in sight. But that`s me.
For the record, Zalae is no Blizzard employee. Your statement is true, though, in general. It's a sad truth. But Blizzard has made this clear in their tournament rules, as far as I am aware. Not saying that Blizzard's decision is right or wrong by any means, but they have to take these accusations seriously at the moment. If the accusations will be proven wrong, I don't see a reason why they shouldn't invite him again in the future. The guy's career isn't really over apparently.
Nobody in this forum knows what actually happened, so speculating about whether this was made up or not is pointless.
I have only watched Zalae's stream once during a bundle giveaway and he was a bit overreacting because people were just spamming giveaway codes all the time (I understand the frustration, though). So I can see why people don't think he is particularly nice, but that doesn't say much about this incidence.
Since when Blizzard has become ethical? Or should I interpret this as 'reputation management'?
Observing their handling of the HS-community.
The abhorrent morale behind card design with an Iskarian smile is profoundly at odds with the 'ethical' posturing over Zalae's apparent transgressions. Blizzard has no ethical record. Suspending Zalae how bad he might have behaved is just another form of repulsive marketing. Cancel culture at its best.
We make our world significant through the courage of our questions and the depth of our answers.
I don’t see how your example is any different. Johnny Depp was in fact found GUILTY in some cases and unable to appeal the trial. Yes there was a lot of evidence of his innocence but it’s still relevant and he is still fighting to actually be proven innocent.
https://www.google.co.jp/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/6994186002
Couldn't agree more with you.
I'm not posting to attack what you said, I just don't know if you meant Hardwick or Depp as "my example".
Hardwick wasn't found guilty of anything, he was fully exonerated. It just took years, hundreds of thousands of dollars if not millions in losses, and endless social stigma.
Depp at least had a finding of fact against him, even though it was a farce.
I'm not sure if that's what you meant or if you had something else in mind.
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
I mean it is the end of the argument, unless you expect the average joe to somehow band up together enough support to change the status quo. It's not a matter of ethics or what is "right" it's literally just corporations having most of the power to do as they please in modern societies.
This was made public at the beginning of this year, it has been around the network for three months, while Zalae has been participating in tournaments and has been invited to events and streamings, and now, when we are hours of the start of the new season of Grandmasters, Blizzard takes action and kicks him out?
what a disgusting human being.
This baffles me as well. Did they just realize it now or what?
Yeah, I don't think cops getting the paid vacations for murdering people is quite the same as false accusations.
Esports follow the same principles as pretty much any other business, when you have many faces of the company and any one of them have a run in with the law they typically get terminated, you wouldn't want a rapist to tarnish your reputation.
However, people justifying this just by allegations is wrong. Cut the guy some slack and wait for his court appeal before jumping to conclusions, for all you know you could be pointing the finger at an innocent man.
I am not familiar with this case, or if it's true or not, but the result is really nothing new. It's the usual "cancel culture" and "me too" movement. This has been going on on social media sites for years, where someone gets accused of something, and it doesn't really matter if it's true or not, because the damage has been done, and the life of accused gets ruined. Forget about innocent until proven guilty. The business gets scared that non-customers are outraged, and thinks it makes them look bad, so they sweep things under the rug as fast as they can by separating themselves from the person in question. Not much you can do about it unless you're at the top of the food chain, where you'd be untouchable.
Not all cases of suspension involve killing someone, and also the cops are suspended regardless of being innocent or guilty, simply during investigation. If the cop is found innocent, it wasn’t murder, making your statement false. If it was actually murder, it means the cop was found guilty and will no longer be suspended but either face jail time or whatever punishment the judge sees fit. So no, they don’t get paid vacations after murdering someone, because that has to be proven. If you are simply against paid suspension, that is a separate issue, and one that I’d be inclined to agree with, or instead of being paid, just get subsidized for living expenses, like welfare.
I honestly couldn't care whether he gets a temporary suspension because he doesn't regularly post HS videos anymore.
Feels like he needs some time off anyway, I'm sure his current girlfriend will find out in due time if the allegations are true.
DJ
Looks like the presumption of innocence isn't a thing anymore