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I have lowered my expectations so much this season that I am even enjoying it.
My custom expansion: Game of Thrones
I'd have gone with Captain America in Endgame as an example of a character written for plot instead of because that's what the character would do, rather than those two, but yes.
The issue is how the 'twist' (if you can call it that) was set-up and executed, not the fact that it happened.
You can find me here! Good luck everyone!
This thread = Dany.
Upon reaching the end of the show and finding that it was not as expected, the posters here have decided to go nuclear on the show destroy it completely.
Now it all makes sense.
This season and last have been shaky, but I couldn't be happier that the show runners and Martin saw the obvious. danaerys is nuts. People watched all eight seasons and didn't notice...
1. There are no good guys. Seemingly good people can do bad things and villains can save the day. I see people pissed that Cersei's death is supposed to be sad, because she is a villain...so it should be funny when she dies??? Danny is MAD NOW OHHH NOES, even though she just did something basically the same as she does every episode, just this time it was to people we cared about.
If you were a Khaleesi fanboy or fangirl that's on you. Your heroes will disappoint in this show. Period.
Are people also not noticing that Arya is borderline psychopath? That Sansa is ruthless? Is those characters not being goody goody in the final episode going to be shocking too?
2. Did people not watch the other seasons? Danny crucified people ffs. Her response to literally every conflict has been violence. The same people who route for her aren't probably even death penalty supporters. Was everyone seriously ok with her burning Tarly alive last season? That was awful. She has had people put to death like every five minutes, and never felt bad about it. Almost every episode Jorah would beg her for mercy. Well Jorah's dead now.
3. Anyone and I mean anyone notice how Dany used to dismiss other legit claims to the throne? No one had a valid claim except her, even though she is the youngest child of the dead mad king, her dynasty is long gone, and no one else recognizes her claim. Her claim is like...as strong as Gendry's. There are fifty characters with a legit claim to the throne, and the only two who act like this are her and Stannis. Ned Stark was willing to die for the principal of who had the best claim, and he didn't even consider her.
How unsurprising then that she didn't recognize Jon's claim. She is...one of the least qualified people to rule. She never even lived in Westeros. Her sole right to rule came from the fact that she is the one true Targaryen left, which was tenuous at best. Now John Snow has a better claim, and so the real justice would be she just stepped aside. Anyone able to picture her doing that? Nope, because she's been a power hungry nut from day 1.
4. The show subverts expectations and cleverly hides plotlines...but it is still a show. With a plot. There are only so many plots in the world. Literally, anyone getting the iron throne would have been a pretty simple plot once we get there. Oh, Jon is a chosen one, how trite. Well Danny would have been the same. Ditto like half the characters. Game of thrones established early on it's about the intrigue of the journey, not the destination. Whoever sits on the iron throne, this wasn't supposed to be a popularity contest. It was about the idea that no one really wins, and there are no heroes. I have a feeling if Jon does become king, it's not going to be a happy ending anyway. King of what? The capitol is gone.
The majority of the current uproar is from people who can't understand why Dany fired the city though.
But this particular plot element was well written from my point of view, from season one onwards. Dany's descent into the 'Targaryen madness'...it's been foreshadowed in both books and film since the beginning. She stopped trusting/killed off/watched die all the people that held that side of her in check. It's always been inevitable.
The belief in her divine right to burn the ants who appose her, or pose any threat to her purification of the world, her vision... She is pure Targaryen. Think of how many times during the course of the show she was persuaded, reluctantly, to be merciful in some way or other...then recent events tipped her over the edge.
Could they have taken it slower... sure. The show has been rushed for a couple of seasons now though - and honestly, this is not why the majority are crying so loudly right now - it's that she fired the city at all.
I'm not going to type my huge post again, no one bothered to respond to it anyway. Just stop the straw-manning. No one is saying the "twist" (which was seen from ten miles and four years away) wasn't a decent plot point. They are saying that it wasn't earned with a reasonably built foundation. I have gone into great detail as to why that is.
And if the response is, "well the casual show fans are mad", I don't think you can substantiate that claim. Most of the superficial fans I've seen talking about this just liked the spectacle of the episode. The outcry is coming from people who have watched eight seasons of show and read five books, and are being given a subpar product.
As I've said, it is known that GRRM gave the writers the ending he intended without walking them step-by-step through the way he got from the end of the currently printed book material to the end of the series. The show writers are not up to the task of taking on story-telling at Martin's level, and this is the result.
I'm disappointed because of several very objective metrics that the show failed to meet.
By the way, I forgot in my large post to mention the one scene that could have saved this all for me. You guys remember Sansa and Tyrion were once married, and Tyrion refused to touch her until she asked? Imagine with me a scene after the battle with the Others, in the following episode.
After Dany legitimizes Gendry, Jon Snow calls Tyrion to stand before the king's table. He doesn't know if he's going to be chewed out or what, but Sansa starts talking instead of Jon. And she says something like (keeping in mind I'm no writer):
You protected me in the house of my enemies. You gave me your name and your kindness. And I ran. I ran from my future as your wife, and I left you to answer for a crime I knew you didn't commit [Joff's murder]. I am not proud of how I acted as a girl, but I am before you as a woman grown, and I ask that you stand with me now as my husband.
Something like that, I'm bad at this. But, with a little more polish, can you FUCKING IMAGINE that piece of drama? Why did we not get a wrap up to that story line? It was the one subplot that could have been paid off in an actual uplifting way without completely ruining the general aesthetic.
I freely admit they could do this in the epilogue of the last episode, but I bet my life it doesn't happen.
Either way, stop with the straw man. I honestly don't understand how folks can defend this writing, but even if you are inclined to do so, at least address the arguments being made.
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
congratz, after failing to make a coherent argument you basically throw it all away and go "nu-uh you're stupid"
I guess we finally found the target demographic of people literally incapable of understanding the process of writing and therefore will eat up any dog turd fed to them
I tried having fun once. It was awful.
..........but that's basically what you just did in this very post. Criticize someone for "nu uh, you're stupid!" by name calling people who like season 8.
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I started reading the books when Clash of Kings was new, long before even rumours of a TV show being created. You might not be a 'casual fan' but neither am I. Has the show declined...yes. Is the last episode to blame? No it was the most coherent within the plot that has been building all this time and highlight of the season so far. A song of Ice and Fire has never been about providing 'uplifting plotlines'. It's always been substantially based on the War of the Roses, just about the most brutal, underhanded, ultimately pointless waste of life in human history.
It was supposed to be joke...
I never said the writing was great. Its been sub par since benioff and weiss passed the source material, and worse the last couple seasons when they tried to cram too much into too few episodes. I just think all the Dany hate/shock is unjustified given all the telegraphing over the past 8 seasons of show and in the books. Could the lead-up have been handled better? Sure. Was it so bad enough to justify the Internets losing their collective shit? No.
It was really an enjoyable episode for me. The sub par writing was far outweighed by great acting, amazing visuals, a good general story line.
I know there is a section in the forums to talk about other things, and this thread is not breaking any site rules, but I am just so tired of coming onto hearthpwn and seeing this thread. it is taking up space and most people here don't come here to talk about game of thrones. so I would like to politely request that we close this thread.
Rejoice, for even in death, you have become children of Thanos.
Politely, you're taking up space.
It's hilarious what lengths people will go through to defend this indefensibly stupid episode and season.
The consistent tragic arc is not Dany's descent into madness, it has been the decline of show's writing- more and more scenes and episodes makes zero sense in terms of narrative or thematics, but make perfect sense in terms of brain dead shock factor and spectacular visuals. The writing is the foundation of story- and if it's a harmless fluff story like Detective Pikachu, you can say whatever, just enjoy it. But if the tone of the show is grave and somber, and we are supposed to feel something when we look at charred bodies and ash with dramatic music in the background, we have to be able to take the show seriously. The positively goofy scripts of the last two episode in particular prohibit that.
The series finale of Game of Thrones is this coming Sunday; it's not going to last forever :/
Behold, foolish interlopers! I am commanding this mortal to spread the will of the Scourge throughout the interwebs, encouraging you to seek out me, Archlich Kel'Thuzad! Now coming to you as the tenth class of Hearthstone!
I am a finalist in this Class Creation Competition, so if you could give it a look I would be greatly appreciative <3
Yeah, cheers to all who have pointed out that literally no one is upset about Dany going mad. Everyone knew that was coming. It's the way she got there that has people upset.
Flick of a switch.
Also, a fun thing to do is to go on youtube and find videos where people fix the indefensibly bad writing choices with very minor tweaks. It's like connecting major plot points using something other than zigzags drawn with crayon.
For example, last episode, Tyrion walks up to Cersei and pleads for her to surrender. (At this point Tyrion is fully brain dead, which is fine, maybe that's the point of his character?) Cersei, who literally has been sending people to kill him since he left King's Landing years ago, has the full ability to kill him now. In order to provoke Dany into doing something rash, she could just kill Tyrion. He's the Queen's hand, and top on Cersei's kill list. Instead, she kills Missandei and just lets him walk away. If the goal is provocation, killing Tyrion would work just as well. Then she could keep Missandei as a human shield for the red keep, just like she has been doing with by letting the peasants into the city. Or she could kill both of them, and double up on the provocation. The only combination that makes no sense is to kill the prisoner you've done the hard work to capture and let Tyrion walk, which is of course what the show runners went with.
Why did Cersei want to further provoke Dany at all? (Other Cersei's a bitch, so why not?) It almost seemed to foreshadow Cersei having something else up her sleeve, something that Dany wasn't aware of.
Instead of Cersei just being lame and delusional, and Dany going crazy on civilians AFTER she's won an easy, precise, unambiguous victory, consider: Who hates the common folk of King's Landing? Not Dany. She has never interacted with them, and thinks of herself as a liberator. Cersei, however, personally hates each one after dealing with them for years, especially after her walk of shame. This is part of the reason she blows up the sept and surrounding area without a shred of remorse.
So, Cersei- with knowledge of wildfire stores, a hatred of the peasants she has decided to use as human shields, the time and impetus to build lots of scorpions, and cruel sense of irony- places thickets of these weapons throughout the city(NOT only on the outer walls), over safe houses filled with peasants and barrels of wildfire. In order to use Drogon, Dany has to take them out. The first explosion comes as a surprise and she's a bit conflicted, seeing all the peasants burning. However, being fucking pissed off, hating Cersei even more, and wanting to ensure her victory, she makes the difficult choice to destroy the rest of these scorpion nests/traps and then the keep itself.
So Dany ends up destroying the city, partly out of necessity but partly out of frustration. She destroys what she has come to save, becomes queen of the ashes. Cersei laughs maniacally, finally getting her ultimate revenge on everyone who has wronged her or wanted to usurp her, ultimately at the cost of everything, including her own life and the life of her unborn child. Dany defeated on the eve of her greatest victory by destroying her long awaited prize. Then she snaps and goes full mad queen. Here both women have agency, both we can empathize with on some level, and it makes thematic and narrative sense.
Wow, congrats dude. I didn't think it was possible to break the conceit meter harder than some folks do on the salt thread, but you have most definitely done it.
I'm reminded of a quote from the best movie in the world:
GENTLEMEN! YOU CAN'T FIGHT IN HERE, THIS IS THE WAR ROOM!
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
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PremiumI think he means it shows up in "recent discussion" box on main page which has only 4 slots so that's already 25% of the site taken over.
That's how I personally saw this thread in the first place.
Maybe it would be sane to remove off-topic threads from showing up there?
Piloted Shredder, Knife Juggler, Mad Scientist, Dr. Boom
Need to be removed from this game
YET DANY STILL NAMED A DRAGON AFTER HIM!!!!!!!!
Sorry for the capslock but how could people miss that Dany is not right in the head? She falls in love with her rapist, that's the very first thing she does. Really thanks to the creator of that list though.
People get blinded by beauty, dragons, nice music, badassery, some noble agenda. But that's all intended .Basically Jorah starts the whole thing out of blind love: "If she has Dragons, she can do anything"
However Dragons are likely only a product of blood magic and the Red Star. There are no gods. Burn a girl with a wood horse, you get a horse. Well that's the show's take. In the books everything is hidden in cryptic prophecies - which are all like Noah's ark, fictive myths based on real events.
The showrunners writing is awful, but people are also not really smart, and the two things get tangled up with each other. Actually the overall plot makes a lot of sense with the books in context. But the execution is awful.
It's comic book style instead of medieval realism, and everything is rushed. And that's mostly the only problem of S8. Granted the plot would have been better with fake Aegon (Varys selfmade perfect king - Varys has a plot in the books) instead of Cersei, and book Euron (knows the secret of magic - that it is all just about fire, blood and sacrifice, drinks the Warlocks's wine to see the future but on LSD) instead of show Euron. But even with the setups we had, we could have had a better plot:
Easy fix:
1. Mostly keep E1 the way it is, but remove the end. E1 was boring but expected for a season start as a welcome back episode.
2. Have the Battle at Last Hearth in E2. Umbers get recked. Danaerys and Jon send Qhono and Bronze John Royce with the cavalry to ambush the Wights and escape with the Umbers. Royce has a warming dialogue with Qhono about foreigners, since he is from the conservative Vale and was kinda anti Barbarian (remember Shagga he is from the Vale?). Then they ride to battle but they die. Look, I suddenly made the White Walkers score kills, with the most minor characters.
Also in E2 Beric's group battles the White Walkers at Karhold, they lose but escape to Winterfell. So now the White Walkers fucked shit up and seem like a credible threat.
3. E3 is old E2
4. E4 is mostly the old E3, but without Qhono since he is dead. No one knows who that is anyway, could be any Dothraki. Only change I would have, make the Night King kill a fan favorite. Podrick! That's perfect. He trains to become a knight all the time, then he gets to be a hero and has to duel the Night King. He fights brilliantly but dies. It's a dark end but somewhat fitting even though stereotypical. I'd rather have that than a boring villain and irrelevant side characters.
5. E5 is old E4. Keep it the same, but Euron is with the Scorpions on Dragonstone, hidden cleverly behind the castle walls. He shots the Dragon when Daenerys tries to land with them on the island, from a much closer range, almost point blank. Only then the fleet appears behind the rock, and they destroy Dany's ship and capture Missandei. Drogon destroys the Ironborn on Dragonstone, but Euron escapes via the sea.
6. E6: The Northerners get ambushed by the cavalry of the Golden Company on their way to King's Landing, and they take some losses. Varys betrays Dany. Cersei reveals a Trump card: A Da Vinci style machine gun scorpion. Yeah that's ridicoulous, but villains who are losing need to have a trump card. Grey Worm has a mental breakdown that Dany witnesses.
7. Old E5. Cersei's Trump Card gets destroyed immediately. Dany still goes complete apeshit on the city after the surrender and the number of victims will be the same, but make the civilian victims collateral damage of Dany's rampage, rather than intended targets. Like show that Dragons aren't pets or your children, but weapons of mass destruction, and when used as such they will leave no one alive in their path.
And then the final.
When the Hound pushes the Mountain off the tower, I wish there'd been a moment when he was hanging onto a stone and watching his brother fall into the fire and just fucking grinning like an idiot. Just a short moment, before he fell as well. That would have been more satisfying to watch...
...and also this episode was badly paced and horribly written and Dany went crazy for no good reason.
*falls into the flaming abyss that is this thread*