Hearthpwn

The killing of innocents is also a part of her choice to rule by fear. The people must fear her more than loving the true heir to the throne, Jon. Also doing the things according to her advisor who failed her every single time and she lost the faith in him would lead her to some kind of failure again. She had to become a dragon and do the things her way

Quote from Fog_za >>

Am I the only one who thinks that this episode is entirely consistent with Dany's character and tactics ever since she got the dragons (as per the show)? And that she's never really been "good"? She was tempered by her advisors but her tactics have always been direct, only really playing at wise. She doesn't truly believe the mad king did anything wrong. She calls herself by all sorts of titles, like any "liberation" movement leader. Her only real motivation has been to rule everything, by force if required. She's not loved or respected in Westeros, which is unfamiliar to her. She has lost her circle, or it is ineffective (in Tyrion's case). She's a power obsessed, delusional person with a cult of personality.

Worst part of the episode was Jaime, which seemed a simplification of his character arc, and how weirdly stupid Tyrion's has become. Otherwise, the episode was fine.

 except she always adhered to some sort of personal morality. She never had any qualms about murdering those standing in her way, as seen by executing the Tarly's and Varys, both of which are at least somewhat consistent with her character.

but she had absolutely no reason to go full genocide. The battle was won, the defenses destroyed, she was pretty much invincible and all she had to do was go after Cersei, burn down the red keep (ignore collateral), sit on top of a wall and yell "I run this shit now".

No, instead she decides to murder her future subject despite not being provoked by them whatsoever. If she wanted to rule by fear, conquering the city single handedly in a day would have done the trick and she would know that.

The worst part is they could have easily written a more believable scenario, but they chose not to because that'd require effort.

Quote from Vesper >>

 This have to be one of the best comments I have ever read on this site - well done - made my day, thank you.

I don't know, in the end it was Tyrion's wish to save the city and the innocent people. He was begging Dany to stop the attack once the bells rang, yet she didn't show any reaction other than ordering Grey Worm to rally the forces. She didn't listen to him when he came up with the Meereen comparison and in the scene before with Jon when he told her about loving Dany only as a queen she announced "Alright then. Let it be fear!"

That and the certainty of her most loyal advisors failing her coupled with the fact that Sansa and most of Westeros don't trust her makes sense to me in that she finally snapped to become the mad queen. Just my two cents, of course but I somewhat enjoyed the episode for the most part.

Quote from jainaishot >>

 

Every character was violated to oblivion.And do not bring the lack of time as an excuse.How many pointless scenes we had in the last 3 seasons?Fuck it!In this season alone the entire ep2 was a complete waste of screen time and budget.

 

The only character that wasn't violated is... Tormund. He did what he came to do and fucked off back up north as he should have. Could argue about Davos not being ruined as well (yet, at least), but it's hard to ruin a character that done basically nothing this entire season.

Character being different in later seasons than in earlier seasons = character progression, as long as we like the outcome

Character being different in later seasons than in earlier seasons = inconsistent writing, as long as we hate the outcome

come on guys

Quote from Nere >>

The killing of innocents is also a part of her choice to rule by fear. The people must fear her more than loving the true heir to the throne, Jon. Also doing the things according to her advisor who failed her every single time and she lost the faith in him would lead her to some kind of failure again. She had to become a dragon and do the things her way

 This. Dany is not mad. Her dad was mad. Aerys exhibited classic textbook schizophrenia. His regression took years, it started with mild paranoia resulting in some brutality against real enemies, and progressed to violence against fantasized enemies (e.g., burning Ned's dad and brother) and finally morphed into delusions of grandeur with him wanting to burn Kings Landing under the belief he would be reborn from the ashes. He wanted to burn Kings Landing based on a fantasy in his head. That is mad.

Dany burned kings landing for strategic reasons. Her number one goal throughout the entire series has been ruling Westeros. At that moment, when the city had surrendered, she realized that it was not really a victory for her. She lost 2/3 dragons, half her armies and she no longer had the legitimate claim to throne. As she's said many times, the only way she was going to achieve her goal was fear---a display of power so awesome that Westeros would have no choice to bow to her. And she no longer had her most trusted advisers to counsel her otherwise. It was just a logical extension of what she had done before (when restrained by voices of reason), including burning and crucifying slavers, taking the slaver cities and allowing then to descend into chaos, burning the Dothraki capital, etc. While she's certainly shown compassion, it has always come second to her ambition.

While watching the episode I was a little shocked that it happened so fast, but upon reflection, I think it makes perfect sense.

Quote from YourPrivateNightmare >>

Quote from Fog_za >>

Am I the only one who thinks that this episode is entirely consistent with Dany's character and tactics ever since she got the dragons (as per the show)? And that she's never really been "good"? She was tempered by her advisors but her tactics have always been direct, only really playing at wise. She doesn't truly believe the mad king did anything wrong. She calls herself by all sorts of titles, like any "liberation" movement leader. Her only real motivation has been to rule everything, by force if required. She's not loved or respected in Westeros, which is unfamiliar to her. She has lost her circle, or it is ineffective (in Tyrion's case). She's a power obsessed, delusional person with a cult of personality.

Worst part of the episode was Jaime, which seemed a simplification of his character arc, and how weirdly stupid Tyrion's has become. Otherwise, the episode was fine.

 except she always adhered to some sort of personal morality. She never had any qualms about murdering those standing in her way, as seen by executing the Tarly's and Varys, both of which are at least somewhat consistent with her character.

but she had absolutely no reason to go full genocide. The battle was won, the defenses destroyed, she was pretty much invincible and all she had to do was go after Cersei, burn down the red keep (ignore collateral), sit on top of a wall and yell "I run this shit now".

No, instead she decides to murder her future subject despite not being provoked by them whatsoever. If she wanted to rule by fear, conquering the city single handedly in a day would have done the trick and she would know that.

The worst part is they could have easily written a more believable scenario, but they chose not to because that'd require effort.

 Fair enough, valid points. Still, I get the impression that she cares more about people who love her and buy into her myth then the Westeros inhabitants who don't remember her family fondly, just want to get on with their lives, and see her as an outsider. Not much gratitude is even shown by the north for her intervention. Perhaps her idea of a show of force is different to what you would consider is required. At this stage she is seen as an occupying force, not a legitimate ruler. She talks about a clean slate, and has experience with an insurgency when her rule was not as welcomed as in previous cases. She might have even felt the surrender was a trap. 

After considering for a bit, I think I will write a bit of a dissertation here.  If you make it to the end of this, I commend and thank you.  This is important to me.

You guys remember the story of Icharus?  Greek dude, wax wings, flew too close to the sun?  Icharus is invoked, in most walks of life, as a cautionary tale.  Be careful not to fly too close to the sun, or you'll fall a long way.  But in the realm of art, Icharus's name carries a very different connotation.

Icharus was a fucking hero.

We don't remember safe 100 years later.  We don't venerate safe.  You guys know the movie Fight Club?  Sure, it has flaws.  There's no one on this planet who finds everything about that movie compelling.  But tell me you don't remember the exact moment you first heard those fateful words:  "Please return your tray tables to their full upright and locked position" as realization dawned on Edward Norton's face.

"But Shadow," you say, "are you really suggesting Fight Club is some work of art worthy of memory?"  I'm saying, a crazy author wrote a crazy book, and some crazy investors turned said book into a crazy movie, and I'm fucking saying that all of you will hear your grandchildren calling someone all singing, all dancing crap of the world. 

I'm saying sometimes the wax wings hold up.

Now, why does this post belong in a GoT thread?  Because all of this criticism is not about GoT being bad or unwatchable.  It's about knowing, not wondering, absolutely knowing, that the show could have reached for greatness and stayed away from the sun instead.  Let's talk about a few examples where greatness was one wing-flap away (am I milking this metaphor enough for you?).

Let's talk about Cersei and Jamie Lannister's end.

I went back and researched the whole prophecy thing.  The prophecy states that a younger, more beautiful woman (presumably Dany, though I don't go for teenagers) would come to replace her and Cersei would die "with her brother's hands around her neck".  If you look at how Jamie held her as the ceiling collapsed, you see that the writers paid service to this prophecy.  Now in general, I say bravo!  100% good way to subvert the assumptions of the audience.  I was wrong earlier when I said they threw out the prophecy (I thought it said the brother killed her).

The problem is, can't we do this better?  Cersei thinks Tyrion is going to strangle her.  The first level of subversion would be for Jaime to do it instead.  That's what I assumed was going to happen until ep. 4, when it became clear that they were not going to have Jaime change at all.  He started the show doing horrible things for his sister, and ends the show giving up everything for the sister without any indication he cared about the terrors she brought on the world.  Can't we do this better?  Can't we make a valid show of him going to the Red Keep to kill her in order to protect his city.  The same city he killed a king over before the story began.  And maybe, with his hands at her throat, he realizes that she is what she is, but she is also a sister and a mother, and he stops.  And then whatever happens happens, whether it's a crushing ceiling or dragon's fire or whatever.

Let's talk about Arya and the Hound.

I'm not going to rehash the issues with Arya killing the Night King a la One Punch Man.  As with most plot lines they actually execute, the end result isn't the problem.  The lack of build up is.  But specifically with regards to Arya and the Hound heading to the Red Keep, and skipping the obvious issues with why the hell the Hound didn't have this conversation before they entered the city, let's talk.  The conversation itself, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, Arya's softening toward the Hound and the use of his actual name "Sandor", was absolutely perfect.  It might have been the single most gripping and true-to-form scene in the entire show, and I've been thinking about that statement for a while now.

But can't we pay this setup off a bit?  Sandor says, "don't be like me.  Do you wanna be like me?".  And she actually listens.  She leaves a name on her list unfinished in order to honor her friend's wishes.  Sandor goes and gives us the Clegane bowl we always wanted . . . minus any stakes, but it still was awesome.  But what happens to Arya?  She's been told by her friend, "don't throw your life away.  Survive." and she goes out into the streets and unwittingly leads a large amount of people to their deaths.  Imagine with me, for a moment, if they didn't show Arya after one of the dragon's passes.  They just left her fate unknown at the end of this episode.  And then, in the final episode, she uses her disguise powers to get close to someone, maybe even Dany, and kills her.  Only, when she does the telltale face reveal, she pulls off the fake face to reveal a horribly scared Arya, thus experiencing consequences for heroism for the first and only time of the show.  Can you fucking imagine that moment?  That moment would life in television history in a way that few have.

Ok, so if you've gotten this far, let's talk about Daenerys (whose name I was horribly misspelling yesterday).  Full disclosure, Angry Joe's friend's idea was better than mine for how to do this, so I give him full credit for below (think the name is Alex).

I can't talk about this one in a vacuum of one episode.  Rhaegal should not have died last episode.  In order to set up the madness in a way that worked, she needed two children left at the start of this episode.  By the way, of course she was going to turn into the mad queen.  That has been basically assumed by book fans for years, and it is a great twist.  But we can make this one better, without a doubt.  Imagine with me that the fight started with two dragons.  I don't care that she made it through a million scorpions, they could have written around that in half a dozen ways that would have made sense.  Maybe the Unsullied launched a sneak attack on the fleet first, whatever, just do something that indicates the scorpions are out of action.

Tyrion releases Jamie and sets up the whole thing where the city will signal the surrender with the bells.  All well and good.  But who says that everyone in the Lannister army knows that is the signal for surrender?  Maybe Jamie gets held up from spreading the word, and the events unfold like this:

Jamie tells the commander of the Golden Company to throw down arms and rings the bells.  Daenerys brings her dragons to a halt on the city walls, listening to the bells.  The Unsullied start celebrating.  And then, that one asshole scorpion who manages to get its shit together sees a perfect shot, not at Rhaegal, but at Drogon and Dany herself.  Not knowing the fight is over, one lowly crew of soldiers takes aim and fires . . . and Rhaegal throws himself into the path of the projectile, getting a shot through the chest and dying in front of Dany.  Now come on folks, isn't that the build up we want to see?  Isn't that a plausible reason why a mother would go insane?

Keep in mind, we're dealing with someone who has had very measured responses to horrible events in the past.  People point to the crucifixions in Mereen as a sign of madness, but these are harsh times, and she didn't pin up one more noble than they did slave.  When she lost Viserion, it was to pure evil.  Obviously, she's going to go HAM on the Others (white walkers, whatever you show-watching plebs say).  But, could she keep it together when her child dies AFTER A SURRENDER WAS CALLED?  I don't know, but it makes a lot more sense than what we got.

Too much has been made of the subverting expectations trope.  Let me be very clear.  We expect to be entertained and stimulated.  The literal definition of disappointment is "positive expectations not being met".  Subverting expectations only works as a story-telling device when the writers are more imaginative than the audience, and can fulfill the base desires of the audience better than they can imagine themselves.  In other words, it's the difference between Fight Club and The Last Jedi.  Both are highly subversive, but I would submit that one is a lot more satisfying than the other.

I try to lead a very disciplined life, and part of that is not letting minor issues with no real consequences occupy a great deal of my time.  Here, I have failed miserably.  I care more about this show's failings than I should.  I am, in fact, mad bro.  To some extent, I make no apologies.  We have too much of the ironic and edgy in us, these days.  We can't sit back as a group and say what we all know:  Art matters.  Culture matters.  And like it or not, works like this will influence the next generation of writers and directors.  Learn from this.  Tell your children better stories than we were told here.  And take pride in your work.

We started watching as boys.  Rise now as men of the . . . well, you get the idea.

Long, but so worth it: https://imgur.com/a/CoyWKMP

Quote from GerritDeMan >>

To all the people saying Daenerys' actions made sense and were set up properly I'd like to point out the following:

In the first 4 seasons Daenerys was constantly trying to help the helpless. She wanted the dothraki to stop mindlessly killing and raping people, even though that is basically their entire culture. She killed all the slavers in Astapor and told the slaves she freed (including the unsullied) that they were free to go. She went to Yunkai, where they offered her ships so that she could go to Westeros and do what her initial purpose was, but instead she chose to free the people of Yunkai from their masters. Then she went on to Meereen to do the exact same and stayed there to make sure slavery was going to be ended permanently.

Sure, after that things definitely didn't all go too well for her until halfway through season 6 where suddenly everyone flocked to her side. Then when she went to Westeros things still didn't go very smoothly, but in the end she got what she wanted. Jon told her he doesn't want the throne so there's really not much reason for her to worry about him being the true heir, and she beat Cersei. Even if everyone knew about Jon's true heritage he could just say 'I don't want to be king and I declare Daenerys the queen of the seven kingdoms' and most people would have been okay with it. 

It has already been stated enough that her going mad was setup poorly so I won't go into that too much, but all of you who think her actions made sense are forgetting this: She won, every one of her enemies surrendered to her, and even if she still decided her enemies (or just Cersei since no one besides her and Euron have actively wronged her) had to pay for their actions, she could have just gone straight for the red keep where all of her remaining enemies were. The main problem isn't Daenerys 'going mad', it's that she has apparently become so mad that she is slaughtering countless innocents for no damn reason at all, while she used to be someone who would do everything to make sure that the oppressed masses are treated appropriately.

Daenerys has had the tendency to go too far in punishing those she believed to be in the wrong so I can see why you would think Daenerys losing it made some sense, but I just can't possibly begin to understand how you can think that it makes sense for her to mindlessly slaughter innocent civilians.

Edit: also this: https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/bo7qug/remember_when_dany_was_devastated_because_her/

It blows my mind how many people are saying something along the lines of you, that this was out of no where and we didn't see it coming...Like really????

Almost every time she has tried to do something right or listened to her advisors it has bite her in the ass. I mean like where should we start? Her descend into finally snapping has been in the works for a long time.

- Her brother treated her like trash like she was a object her whole life.
- When she tried to be merciful to the witch that was about to be raped she ended up betraying her by killing her husband and unborn child.
- When she was in Qarth she was betrayed by the person that let her into the city and also one of her close friends.
- Barristan Selmy gets iced when the city turns on her.
- When helping Jon it ended up costing her a Dragon when she went North of the wall to save him.
- At Winterfell loses half her army and Jorah trying to do the right thing.
- Missandei gets her head chopped off.
- Gets betrayed once again by her close advisor Vary's.
- Loses another Dragon
- Finds out she's not actually the true heir and destined for the throne
- Has another relationship go to shambles with Jon
- Most of Westoros is taking a dump on her face
- Most people aren't giving her the respect she deserves after everything she has sacrificed.

Am sure am missing a few more things here and people are sitting here wondering why she's so emotionally unstable and finally snaps and says fuck it when Cersei is in her sights. Honestly it's very realistic. Sometimes people just snap under the pressure and in the moment especially after a series of traumatizing events.

I haven't seen anyone saying that the Dany turn came "out of nowhere".

I did, however, clearly illustrate how it was handled terribly.  Almost as if GRRM told the show writers that was how it needed to end, and they lacked any ability to bring it from point A to point B in a coherent fashion.

There was no prior event from Daenerys that precipitated changing the targets of her ire from her enemies to innocents AND there was no trauma she experienced in the moment that properly sets up the "she just snapped" defense.  Furthermore, the setup was so easy to make that trauma happen (as I illustrated in my long post on this page), a conscientious fan could have a lot of trouble not looking on this episode as a disappointment, regardless of the eye candy or the end result.

In other words, everyone who has read a fan forum already knew that the fans were expecting Dany to go blood-mad.  The end plot point is fine.  The way they got there was amateurish and sad.

Quote from Kaladin >>

Character being different in later seasons than in earlier seasons = character progression, as long as we like the outcome

Character being different in later seasons than in earlier seasons = inconsistent writing, as long as we hate the outcome

 

come on guys

 How about characters being different after 2 episodes?

Quote from DarkArchon21 >>

Quote from GerritDeMan >>

To all the people saying Daenerys' actions made sense and were set up properly I'd like to point out the following:

In the first 4 seasons Daenerys was constantly trying to help the helpless. She wanted the dothraki to stop mindlessly killing and raping people, even though that is basically their entire culture. She killed all the slavers in Astapor and told the slaves she freed (including the unsullied) that they were free to go. She went to Yunkai, where they offered her ships so that she could go to Westeros and do what her initial purpose was, but instead she chose to free the people of Yunkai from their masters. Then she went on to Meereen to do the exact same and stayed there to make sure slavery was going to be ended permanently.

Sure, after that things definitely didn't all go too well for her until halfway through season 6 where suddenly everyone flocked to her side. Then when she went to Westeros things still didn't go very smoothly, but in the end she got what she wanted. Jon told her he doesn't want the throne so there's really not much reason for her to worry about him being the true heir, and she beat Cersei. Even if everyone knew about Jon's true heritage he could just say 'I don't want to be king and I declare Daenerys the queen of the seven kingdoms' and most people would have been okay with it. 

It has already been stated enough that her going mad was setup poorly so I won't go into that too much, but all of you who think her actions made sense are forgetting this: She won, every one of her enemies surrendered to her, and even if she still decided her enemies (or just Cersei since no one besides her and Euron have actively wronged her) had to pay for their actions, she could have just gone straight for the red keep where all of her remaining enemies were. The main problem isn't Daenerys 'going mad', it's that she has apparently become so mad that she is slaughtering countless innocents for no damn reason at all, while she used to be someone who would do everything to make sure that the oppressed masses are treated appropriately.

Daenerys has had the tendency to go too far in punishing those she believed to be in the wrong so I can see why you would think Daenerys losing it made some sense, but I just can't possibly begin to understand how you can think that it makes sense for her to mindlessly slaughter innocent civilians.

Edit: also this: https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/bo7qug/remember_when_dany_was_devastated_because_her/

 

 

It blows my mind how many people are saying something along the lines of you, that this was out of no where and we didn't see it coming...Like really????

Almost every time she has tried to do something right or listened to her advisors it has bite her in the ass. I mean like where should we start? Her descend into finally snapping has been in the works for a long time.

- Her brother treated her like trash like she was a object her whole life.
- When she tried to be merciful to the witch that was about to be raped she ended up betraying her by killing her husband and unborn child.
- When she was in Qarth she was betrayed by the person that let her into the city and also one of her close friends.
- Barristan Selmy gets iced when the city turns on her.
- When helping Jon it ended up costing her a Dragon when she went North of the wall to save him.
- At Winterfell loses half her army and Jorah trying to do the right thing.
- Missandei gets her head chopped off.
- Gets betrayed once again by her close advisor Vary's.
- Loses another Dragon
- Finds out she's not actually the true heir and destined for the throne
- Has another relationship go to shambles with Jon
- Most of Westoros is taking a dump on her face
- Most people aren't giving her the respect she deserves after everything she has sacrificed.

Am sure am missing a few more things here and people are sitting here wondering why she's so emotionally unstable and finally snaps and says fuck it when Cersei is in her sights. Honestly it's very realistic. Sometimes people just snap under the pressure and in the moment especially after a series of traumatizing events.

 Did you even read my post? I said that I can understand that she would go crazy AT CERSEI, not at thousands of innocent people who have not wronged her in any way.

Quote from Kaladin >>

Character being different in later seasons than in earlier seasons = character progression, as long as we like the outcome

Character being different in later seasons than in earlier seasons = inconsistent writing, as long as we hate the outcome

 

come on guys

 Let me correct you:

Character being different in later seasons than in earlier seasons as a logical result of his experiences and actions = character progression

Character being different in later seasons than in earlier seasons just for the sake of subverting expectations or plot requirements = inconsistent writing

Quote from Shadowrisen >>

I haven't seen anyone saying that the Dany turn came "out of nowhere".

I did, however, clearly illustrate how it was handled terribly.  Almost as if GRRM told the show writers that was how it needed to end, and they lacked any ability to bring it from point A to point B in a coherent fashion.

There was no prior event from Daenerys that precipitated changing the targets of her ire from her enemies to innocents AND there was no trauma she experienced in the moment that properly sets up the "she just snapped" defense.  Furthermore, the setup was so easy to make that trauma happen (as I illustrated in my long post on this page), a conscientious fan could have a lot of trouble not looking on this episode as a disappointment, regardless of the eye candy or the end result.

In other words, everyone who has read a fan forum already knew that the fans were expecting Dany to go blood-mad.  The end plot point is fine.  The way they got there was amateurish and sad.

When a unstable person goes into war on a flaming dragon you're telling me a person can't just snap in the heat of battle especially when staring at the place that holds one of your biggest enemies that chopped the head off one of your best friends? Yeah sure man, ok. She had tons of trauma in her before the battle even started leading up to it.

Quote from Shadowrisen >>

After considering for a bit, I think I will write a bit of a dissertation here.  If you make it to the end of this, I commend and thank you.  This is important to me.

You guys remember the story of Icharus?  Greek dude, wax wings, flew too close to the sun?  Icharus is invoked, in most walks of life, as a cautionary tale.  Be careful not to fly too close to the sun, or you'll fall a long way.  But in the realm of art, Icharus's name carries a very different connotation.

Icharus was a fucking hero.

We don't remember safe 100 years later.  We don't venerate safe.  You guys know the movie Fight Club?  Sure, it has flaws.  There's no one on this planet who finds everything about that movie compelling.  But tell me you don't remember the exact moment you first heard those fateful words:  "Please return your tray tables to their full upright and locked position" as realization dawned on Edward Norton's face.

"But Shadow," you say, "are you really suggesting Fight Club is some work of art worthy of memory?"  I'm saying, a crazy author wrote a crazy book, and some crazy investors turned said book into a crazy movie, and I'm fucking saying that all of you will hear your grandchildren calling someone all singing, all dancing crap of the world. 

I'm saying sometimes the wax wings hold up.

Now, why does this post belong in a GoT thread?  Because all of this criticism is not about GoT being bad or unwatchable.  It's about knowing, not wondering, absolutely knowing, that the show could have reached for greatness and stayed away from the sun instead.  Let's talk about a few examples where greatness was one wing-flap away (am I milking this metaphor enough for you?).

Let's talk about Cersei and Jamie Lannister's end.

I went back and researched the whole prophecy thing.  The prophecy states that a younger, more beautiful woman (presumably Dany, though I don't go for teenagers) would come to replace her and Cersei would die "with her brother's hands around her neck".  If you look at how Jamie held her as the ceiling collapsed, you see that the writers paid service to this prophecy.  Now in general, I say bravo!  100% good way to subvert the assumptions of the audience.  I was wrong earlier when I said they threw out the prophecy (I thought it said the brother killed her).

The problem is, can't we do this better?  Cersei thinks Tyrion is going to strangle her.  The first level of subversion would be for Jaime to do it instead.  That's what I assumed was going to happen until ep. 4, when it became clear that they were not going to have Jaime change at all.  He started the show doing horrible things for his sister, and ends the show giving up everything for the sister without any indication he cared about the terrors she brought on the world.  Can't we do this better?  Can't we make a valid show of him going to the Red Keep to kill her in order to protect his city.  The same city he killed a king over before the story began.  And maybe, with his hands at her throat, he realizes that she is what she is, but she is also a sister and a mother, and he stops.  And then whatever happens happens, whether it's a crushing ceiling or dragon's fire or whatever.

 

Let's talk about Arya and the Hound.

I'm not going to rehash the issues with Arya killing the Night King a la One Punch Man.  As with most plot lines they actually execute, the end result isn't the problem.  The lack of build up is.  But specifically with regards to Arya and the Hound heading to the Red Keep, and skipping the obvious issues with why the hell the Hound didn't have this conversation before they entered the city, let's talk.  The conversation itself, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, Arya's softening toward the Hound and the use of his actual name "Sandor", was absolutely perfect.  It might have been the single most gripping and true-to-form scene in the entire show, and I've been thinking about that statement for a while now.

But can't we pay this setup off a bit?  Sandor says, "don't be like me.  Do you wanna be like me?".  And she actually listens.  She leaves a name on her list unfinished in order to honor her friend's wishes.  Sandor goes and gives us the Clegane bowl we always wanted . . . minus any stakes, but it still was awesome.  But what happens to Arya?  She's been told by her friend, "don't throw your life away.  Survive." and she goes out into the streets and unwittingly leads a large amount of people to their deaths.  Imagine with me, for a moment, if they didn't show Arya after one of the dragon's passes.  They just left her fate unknown at the end of this episode.  And then, in the final episode, she uses her disguise powers to get close to someone, maybe even Dany, and kills her.  Only, when she does the telltale face reveal, she pulls off the fake face to reveal a horribly scared Arya, thus experiencing consequences for heroism for the first and only time of the show.  Can you fucking imagine that moment?  That moment would life in television history in a way that few have.

 

Ok, so if you've gotten this far, let's talk about Daenerys (whose name I was horribly misspelling yesterday).  Full disclosure, Angry Joe's friend's idea was better than mine for how to do this, so I give him full credit for below (think the name is Alex).

I can't talk about this one in a vacuum of one episode.  Rhaegal should not have died last episode.  In order to set up the madness in a way that worked, she needed two children left at the start of this episode.  By the way, of course she was going to turn into the mad queen.  That has been basically assumed by book fans for years, and it is a great twist.  But we can make this one better, without a doubt.  Imagine with me that the fight started with two dragons.  I don't care that she made it through a million scorpions, they could have written around that in half a dozen ways that would have made sense.  Maybe the Unsullied launched a sneak attack on the fleet first, whatever, just do something that indicates the scorpions are out of action.

Tyrion releases Jamie and sets up the whole thing where the city will signal the surrender with the bells.  All well and good.  But who says that everyone in the Lannister army knows that is the signal for surrender?  Maybe Jamie gets held up from spreading the word, and the events unfold like this:

Jamie tells the commander of the Golden Company to throw down arms and rings the bells.  Daenerys brings her dragons to a halt on the city walls, listening to the bells.  The Unsullied start celebrating.  And then, that one asshole scorpion who manages to get its shit together sees a perfect shot, not at Rhaegal, but at Drogon and Dany herself.  Not knowing the fight is over, one lowly crew of soldiers takes aim and fires . . . and Rhaegal throws himself into the path of the projectile, getting a shot through the chest and dying in front of Dany.  Now come on folks, isn't that the build up we want to see?  Isn't that a plausible reason why a mother would go insane?

Keep in mind, we're dealing with someone who has had very measured responses to horrible events in the past.  People point to the crucifixions in Mereen as a sign of madness, but these are harsh times, and she didn't pin up one more noble than they did slave.  When she lost Viserion, it was to pure evil.  Obviously, she's going to go HAM on the Others (white walkers, whatever you show-watching plebs say).  But, could she keep it together when her child dies AFTER A SURRENDER WAS CALLED?  I don't know, but it makes a lot more sense than what we got.

 

Too much has been made of the subverting expectations trope.  Let me be very clear.  We expect to be entertained and stimulated.  The literal definition of disappointment is "positive expectations not being met".  Subverting expectations only works as a story-telling device when the writers are more imaginative than the audience, and can fulfill the base desires of the audience better than they can imagine themselves.  In other words, it's the difference between Fight Club and The Last Jedi.  Both are highly subversive, but I would submit that one is a lot more satisfying than the other.

I try to lead a very disciplined life, and part of that is not letting minor issues with no real consequences occupy a great deal of my time.  Here, I have failed miserably.  I care more about this show's failings than I should.  I am, in fact, mad bro.  To some extent, I make no apologies.  We have too much of the ironic and edgy in us, these days.  We can't sit back as a group and say what we all know:  Art matters.  Culture matters.  And like it or not, works like this will influence the next generation of writers and directors.  Learn from this.  Tell your children better stories than we were told here.  And take pride in your work.

We started watching as boys.  Rise now as men of the . . . well, you get the idea.

 

 Shadowrisen we had some heated ...debates... in the past but with this post, you earned my upvote and respect.Well written man, well written indeed.

Quote from Shadowrisen >>

 

There was no prior event from Daenerys that precipitated changing the targets of her ire from her enemies to innocents AND there was no trauma she experienced in the moment that properly sets up the "she just snapped" defense.  Furthermore, the setup was so easy to make that trauma happen (as I illustrated in my long post on this page), a conscientious fan could have a lot of trouble not looking on this episode as a disappointment, regardless of the eye candy or the end result.

 I think you missed my post and the vary blunt explanation given in the show itself, which is that she didn't snap. She made a calculated judgment. Before (in easteros) she did not need to slaughter the innocents because they welcomed and loved her. As she expressly stated several times in this episode and before, she had no love in westeros. Her only option was to rule by fear, so that's what she was trying to accomplish by razing the city. She's not mad. She's always been narcissistic, only before she could do it while making herself feel good about freeing slaves, and now she can't

Quote from DarkArchon21 >>

Quote from Shadowrisen >>

I haven't seen anyone saying that the Dany turn came "out of nowhere".

I did, however, clearly illustrate how it was handled terribly.  Almost as if GRRM told the show writers that was how it needed to end, and they lacked any ability to bring it from point A to point B in a coherent fashion.

There was no prior event from Daenerys that precipitated changing the targets of her ire from her enemies to innocents AND there was no trauma she experienced in the moment that properly sets up the "she just snapped" defense.  Furthermore, the setup was so easy to make that trauma happen (as I illustrated in my long post on this page), a conscientious fan could have a lot of trouble not looking on this episode as a disappointment, regardless of the eye candy or the end result.

In other words, everyone who has read a fan forum already knew that the fans were expecting Dany to go blood-mad.  The end plot point is fine.  The way they got there was amateurish and sad.

When a unstable person goes into war on a flaming dragon you're telling me a person can't just snap in the heat of battle especially when staring at the place that holds one of your biggest enemies that chopped the head off one of your best friends? Yeah sure man, ok. She had tons of trauma in her before the battle even started leading up to it.

First, you ignore that at the point she "snapped" was the exact point she won when the bells rang.  You don't snap when you win, you snap when you see your friend's head chopped off.  Yet she held off attacking the citizens until the point she won, meaning she did this deliberately and with clear thought.

I mean, honestly, in the last episode, do you think it'll start off with her crazy mad, incoherent and trying to kill everyone else, like her father?  Or will it start off with her trying to rationalize what she did (likely the stupid "they need to fear me" argument)?  It goes without saying that it is number 2 (the writers aren't *that* bad).  It'll be a dumb episode of testing Jon's resolve and beliefs, watching him mope around and we wonder will she accept her as queen, which ultimately he won't, and he or someone else will likely kill her.

Regardless, if she was in clear mind when she did this (she was), then she, you know, should at least be in character.  Yet this is the character who all throughout her life has been fighting for the people she killed, and said she would not be a tyrant or harm the innocent.  Remember, "I will not be the queen of ashes" in f'ing season 7.  She didn't snap, it was deliberate and planned.  Except Dany would never do this, and was done for the sake of the plot and to be "shocking".

I guarantee you, watch the last episode, she'll be back to being Dany and trying to justify what she did for her rule.  And just to be clear, I never really liked Dany, and seeing her go into a downward spiral to her demise would have been an interesting character downfall and cool way to end the story.... you know... if it hadn't been done over the course of 3 scenes in 2 episodes.