i opened one in a pack recently. I added him to my freeze control deck and I am seriously rather impreased at the utility I got out of him. In theory, people hate it for a couple of reasons in the current Mage archetypes.
1. kills your minions - don't run him in aggro Mage obviously. In control, you seldom have more to lose on board than your opponent, if nothing at all. I don't even have any minions with 2 health other than scientist.
2. Kills you through ice block - This happens so rarely that I seriously cannot consider it a huge problem at all. How often do you have 2 or less health after your ice block is activated? And you have to be really unlucky to not draw flame leviathan at this late game. If it does happen, I would attribute it to be nothing more than a bad top deck in favor of the opponent, a RNG game which happens all the time. The chances of it are just too low.
Consider this, the probability that flame leviathan kills you is just the same as it killing your opponent when he has 2 or less health. It is so small it shouldn't even be an issue.
Valid cons:
1. Dead draw on starting hand. Just a war golem basically, but happens less enough for me. Still, I see it as a problem.
2. Fights with other 7 mana contenders. Recent monsters like Dr Boom for example, but I would say it still has some advantages over boom explained in the pros below.
Pros:
1. drawing this guy against Aggro like zoo and huntard just nets insane value. Even if you draw him in turn 2/3 destroys flame imps, jugglers and undertaker right away without wasting your frost bolts, all this without spending any mana while adding a war golem to your hand. Not to mention some really insane board wipes in later turns.
2. Even when not against Aggro, free damage on board allows your spells to trade up. Flame strike kills 6 health minions, frost bolts kills 5 health pests like loatheb.
3. 7/7 for 7 mana is bad? Not if he already holy nova'd for you for free. Sometimes he wiped the board clean and I just play him straight away because I got no other minions. BGH'd? Wall of molten giants inc.
4. He is just as bad against control as baron geddon. Both have bad effects in this matchup, but leviathan has 2 more health in case you really need to play him. Again, against big minions it lets your spells trade up with no cost. You can fireball kill rag.
I really think he is underrated. I opened him with iron juggernaut and I find that it helped me more than juggernaut did in my control warrior. I would not be surprised if I see him run In decks. I fought legend players with him on deck and he has always helped. The important thing is to have a deck that put his ability to good use. Seriously, give him a shot, a free board wipe can generate enough tempo for you to win the game on the spot sometimes. The cons are not enough to render him useless due to that fact.
Tried and tested it in multiple Mage decks. In general it just flat out sucked and the situations where it was great were so infrequent and rare that it hardly made it worth running.
If you're looking for a 7 drop legendary (and you're already running Antonidas) just go for Dr Boom instead.
Sadly Flame Leviathan is as disappointing in play as it reads.
I didn't know Iron Juggernaut was considered the best thing ever.
I think people hate on Flame Leviathan because of it's impact on the board. Draw it too early, and you've just done 2 damage to you and your opponent, draw it too late and you're dead anyway. The RNG of the card is just soo broad with a 1 in 20+ chance to draw it when you need it or don't need it :(
I didn't know Iron Juggernaut was considered the best thing ever.
I think people hate on Flame Leviathan because of it's impact on the board. Draw it too early, and you've just done 2 damage to you and your opponent, draw it too late and you're dead anyway. The RNG of the card is just soo broad with a 1 in 20+ chance to draw it when you need it or don't need it :(
If you draw him early against Aggro and it kills 2 healths for nothing. You basically won. Against control, it's pretty bad yea, but no worse than geddon.
Look guys if you just read my OP, I'm not saying this card is flawless. Having him in the start hand really sucks. But it's not total garbage like people think.
I got Flame Leviathan in a pack and tried for a whole day to find value in him. It was a wasted effort. There are just so many better cards in the game. There's no reason to run such once-in-a-while really useful card when you can run cards that are great in almost every match.
Even the deck I made specifically for Flame Leviathan is better without him.
I got Flame Leviathan in a pack and tried for a whole day to find value in him. It was a wasted effort. There are just so many better cards in the game. There's no reason to run such once-in-a-while really useful card when you can run cards that are great in almost every match.
Even the deck I made specifically for Flame Leviathan is better without him.
I agree that there are powerful contenders for it's place, such as Dr Boom. I will stick with him a while more however. It has yet to do anything but good for me overall.
Flame Leviathan is the best class legendary in GvG. Just give it time and people will figure it out. The only thing holding it back right now is the number of people experimenting with weird new decks to try out new cards. Once the meta stabilises and aggro becomes dominant again (as it inevitably will), Leviathan Control will eat the meta.
I got Flame Leviathan in a pack and tried for a whole day to find value in him. It was a wasted effort. There are just so many better cards in the game. There's no reason to run such once-in-a-while really useful card when you can run cards that are great in almost every match.
Even the deck I made specifically for Flame Leviathan is better without him.
^^ This. A thousand times.
Responses above:
1. Iron Juggernaut is better for the simple fact that its RNG will not end up killing you.
2. Flame Leviathan in most of my testing - yes, I've tested the heck out of it - is just too broad on the RNG that when you need it most it never arrives and when you don't need it it comes and says hello. Like an unannounced guest.
3. I'd never run this card in Freeze Giants. Ever. Explosive Sheep is a thousand times better and won't kill you.
4. In the end there's just tons of other cards I'd rather pick over it.
I even had to bite the bullet and craft a golden Flame Leviathan because I collect all the gold mage cards, so trust me... I really wanted it to work. As it stands it's just a terrible card.
1. Iron Juggernaut is better for the simple fact that its RNG will not end up killing you.
Unlike flame leviathan, Iron Juggernaut requires an investment to play, and it might never pay off. People need to understand that Iron Juggernaut does kill you with RNG. If the mine is never drawn, you have effectively spent a whole turn on a worthless 6/5. The tempo loss may cost you the game outright. Flame Leviathan requires no such investment, you can choose if you want to play it later on.
Furthermore, i've explained in the OP that it is very rare for flame leviathan to kill you, as rare as it killing your opponent.
2. Flame Leviathan in most of my testing - yes, I've tested the heck out of it - is just too broad on the RNG that when you need it most it never arrives and when you don't need it it comes and says hello. Like an unannounced guest.
I got the opposite expereience really, its effect always has some value for me. If it is never drawn, then it doesn't really matter, same as if its not in your deck.
3. I'd never run this card in Freeze Giants. Ever. Explosive Sheep is a thousand times better and won't kill you.
Again, explosive sheep needs investment. 4 mana when combo'd with hero power. I run both though.
4. In the end there's just tons of other cards I'd rather pick over it.
Maybe some, but i will continue running it as long as it gives results.
I even had to bite the bullet and craft a golden Flame Leviathan because I collect all the gold mage cards, so trust me... I really wanted it to work. As it stands it's just a terrible card.
Damn man i would love a golden one, i only opened a Golden Iron Juggernaut which i'm not a fan of.
First of all, I don't think Iron Juggernaut is the best legendary ever. I do agree with the point it doesn't kill you/hurt you.
However, I also think Flame Leviathan is terrible...sorry. RNG cards that can hurt you, and you have zero control over them, are just plain terrible in my opinion.
Main points, in my eyes:
1) As said above, zero control over it. you get it in opening hand? it's just a war golem. you get it in turn 1-2? usually just 2 symmetrical damage, not really worth much. you're left with a war golem. you need to top deck a legendary to win you the game? it's usually far from being this one, more often than not it'll hurt you in close matches from what I saw/heard.
It's WAY too much situations in which it'll hurt you, far from being a rare case.
2) The opponent actually sees you draw it - it's a huge negative point IMO - he now knows at least one of the cards in your hand, and will be able to prepare for it properly if needed - maybe he wanted to put out his BGH because he thinks you no longer have big minions? now he'll keep it for the right moment.
3) I just don't think it fits mage...it might fit warrior, but I'm simply dissapointed to see this card in a mage deck that usually won't benefit from it.
4) Also as said - there are simply better options out there. simple as that.
Flame Leviathan is the best class legendary in GvG. Just give it time and people will figure it out. The only thing holding it back right now is the number of people experimenting with weird new decks to try out new cards. Once the meta stabilises and aggro becomes dominant again (as it inevitably will), Leviathan Control will eat the meta.
I don't think any heavily-RNG based card can ever be considered the "best" of anything. Even when playing against aggro decks, you still need to draw Flame Leviathan at the right moment in order for it to be of any use. Got it after you mulliganed your opening hand? Too bad. Draw it when your opponent only has one 4 health minion on the board? Too bad. Draw it when you have minions with two health left on the board? Too bad.
Saying FL is the best legendary is like saying Sneed's is the best legendary. Its effect is just too unreliable to be counted upon in serious competitive matchups.
2) The opponent actually sees you draw it - it's a huge negative point IMO - he now knows at least one of the cards in your hand, and will be able to prepare for it properly if needed - maybe he wanted to put out his BGH because he thinks you no longer have big minions? now he'll keep it for the right moment.
No opponent worth his salt is going to waste a vanilla Big Game Hunter against a Control Mage player. Everyone knows we play Giants, Alexstrasza, and probably Ragnaros, at a minimum. They'll be preparing answers for our massive guys anyway, because they already know they're coming. Showing them the Leviathan doesn't change anything. The opposite is true; Control Mage has so many BGH targets that having an extra 7/7 in the deck means you're more likely to outlast their removal. And this 7/7 has the benefit of not requiring a slot in your deck, since it doubles as an AoE slot.
I don't think any heavily-RNG based card can ever be considered the "best" of anything.
Ragnaros the Firelord has been considered one of the best finishers in the game for a long time. Obviously RNG alone is not enough to make a card bad, if the upsides outweigh the downsides. Cost-benefit analysis is just as important with RNG cards as any others, and much more skill testing since so many noobs automatically dismiss RNG cards.
Unlike Flame Leviathan, Iron Juggernaut requires an investment to play, and it might never pay off. People need to understand that Iron Juggernaut does kill you with RNG. If the mine is never drawn, you have effectively spent a whole turn on a worthless 6/5. The tempo loss may cost you the game outright. Flame Leviathan requires no such investment, you can choose if you want to play it later on.
The big difference of the RNG between Ragnaros and Flame Leviathan is that the RNG of Ragnaros is controlled. YOU choose when to put it down when you need it the most, and can turn the RNG most of the time in your favor. if you put it down at the wrong time, it's YOUR fault, not the RNG's fault.
In the case of Flame Leviathan, as I already said - you have zero control over it, besides the decision to put it in your deck in the first place...
Flame Leviathan is the best class legendary in GvG. Just give it time and people will figure it out. The only thing holding it back right now is the number of people experimenting with weird new decks to try out new cards. Once the meta stabilises and aggro becomes dominant again (as it inevitably will), Leviathan Control will eat the meta.
How is this better against aggro than a Flamestrike? At least you know when you're going to get the effect and it kills buffed minions and midhealth minions. Flame Leviathan is pathetic and the games I've seen it played in have all ended in the mage killing 1 of more of his own minions.
to the guy saying it is the best gvg legendary, pls stop it, flame leviathan is bad, very bad, he s not even close to Voljin, Trogg and Dr Boom.
I said class legendary, so I'm not including Trogg & Boom. I think Flame Leviathan is up there with Vol'jin and Neptulon, and better in many situations.
I don't think the vanilla test applies to Flame Leviathan, because it's primary purpose works even if you never actually summon it. If you want to apply a value test, you should evaluate it as a zero-mana AoE that sometimes has a bonus 7/7 tacked on. In that perspective, it's a LOT better value than any other AoE in the game.
Flame Leviathan is the best class legendary in GvG. Just give it time and people will figure it out. The only thing holding it back right now is the number of people experimenting with weird new decks to try out new cards. Once the meta stabilises and aggro becomes dominant again (as it inevitably will), Leviathan Control will eat the meta.
How is this better against aggro than a Flamestrike? At least you know when you're going to get the effect and it kills buffed minions and midhealth minions. Flame Leviathan is pathetic and the games I've seen it played in have all ended in the mage killing 1 of more of his own minions.
For starters, Flamestrike costs seven and Leviathan costs zero. That's a pretty huge difference... Sometimes against aggro you don't survive until turn 7, you need an AoE on turn 3, and only Leviathan can do that. Also, Flamestrike can't win the game, but a 7/7 can. Also, it's a ridiculous comparison because a control deck would probably want to play them both. (Example: The Kraken) They complement each other. Control mages now have access to seven different AoE effects, which provides inevitability and redundancy. And lastly, if Leviathan killing your own minions is significant, then you're doing it wrong...
Traditionally control decks have always struggled with the balance between answers and threats. (Going way back to Draw-Go days in MtG.) You want to play as many answers as possible, but you still need some threats to be able to close out games. So you want your finishers to be as big and durable as possible to be able to win while being as slot-efficient as possible. Flame Leviathan solves this problem, because it's a finisher that doesn't require a finisher slot. It's an answer that becomes a finisher when you need it to.
Anyway, I'm obviously not going to convince any of you. Haters gonna hate. ;) So we'll just wait a while and eventually your aggro decks are gonna get pwned by someone more open minded than you running the best value AoE in the game. :D
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i opened one in a pack recently. I added him to my freeze control deck and I am seriously rather impreased at the utility I got out of him. In theory, people hate it for a couple of reasons in the current Mage archetypes.
1. kills your minions - don't run him in aggro Mage obviously. In control, you seldom have more to lose on board than your opponent, if nothing at all. I don't even have any minions with 2 health other than scientist.
2. Kills you through ice block - This happens so rarely that I seriously cannot consider it a huge problem at all. How often do you have 2 or less health after your ice block is activated? And you have to be really unlucky to not draw flame leviathan at this late game. If it does happen, I would attribute it to be nothing more than a bad top deck in favor of the opponent, a RNG game which happens all the time. The chances of it are just too low.
Consider this, the probability that flame leviathan kills you is just the same as it killing your opponent when he has 2 or less health. It is so small it shouldn't even be an issue.
Valid cons:
1. Dead draw on starting hand. Just a war golem basically, but happens less enough for me. Still, I see it as a problem.
2. Fights with other 7 mana contenders. Recent monsters like Dr Boom for example, but I would say it still has some advantages over boom explained in the pros below.
Pros:
1. drawing this guy against Aggro like zoo and huntard just nets insane value. Even if you draw him in turn 2/3 destroys flame imps, jugglers and undertaker right away without wasting your frost bolts, all this without spending any mana while adding a war golem to your hand. Not to mention some really insane board wipes in later turns.
2. Even when not against Aggro, free damage on board allows your spells to trade up. Flame strike kills 6 health minions, frost bolts kills 5 health pests like loatheb.
3. 7/7 for 7 mana is bad? Not if he already holy nova'd for you for free. Sometimes he wiped the board clean and I just play him straight away because I got no other minions. BGH'd? Wall of molten giants inc.
4. He is just as bad against control as baron geddon. Both have bad effects in this matchup, but leviathan has 2 more health in case you really need to play him. Again, against big minions it lets your spells trade up with no cost. You can fireball kill rag.
I really think he is underrated. I opened him with iron juggernaut and I find that it helped me more than juggernaut did in my control warrior. I would not be surprised if I see him run In decks. I fought legend players with him on deck and he has always helped. The important thing is to have a deck that put his ability to good use. Seriously, give him a shot, a free board wipe can generate enough tempo for you to win the game on the spot sometimes. The cons are not enough to render him useless due to that fact.
Legend Rogue, druid when lazy
I don't. I think it's pretty worthless without library manipulation.
Tried and tested it in multiple Mage decks. In general it just flat out sucked and the situations where it was great were so infrequent and rare that it hardly made it worth running.
If you're looking for a 7 drop legendary (and you're already running Antonidas) just go for Dr Boom instead.
Sadly Flame Leviathan is as disappointing in play as it reads.
Why did you choose it for a heavy minion deck XD
Legend Rogue, druid when lazy
I didn't know Iron Juggernaut was considered the best thing ever.
I think people hate on Flame Leviathan because of it's impact on the board. Draw it too early, and you've just done 2 damage to you and your opponent, draw it too late and you're dead anyway. The RNG of the card is just soo broad with a 1 in 20+ chance to draw it when you need it or don't need it :(
You have a point there. Sadly the current meta does not favor Freeze Mages.
If you draw him early against Aggro and it kills 2 healths for nothing. You basically won. Against control, it's pretty bad yea, but no worse than geddon.
Look guys if you just read my OP, I'm not saying this card is flawless. Having him in the start hand really sucks. But it's not total garbage like people think.
Legend Rogue, druid when lazy
I got Flame Leviathan in a pack and tried for a whole day to find value in him. It was a wasted effort. There are just so many better cards in the game. There's no reason to run such once-in-a-while really useful card when you can run cards that are great in almost every match.
Even the deck I made specifically for Flame Leviathan is better without him.
I agree that there are powerful contenders for it's place, such as Dr Boom. I will stick with him a while more however. It has yet to do anything but good for me overall.
Legend Rogue, druid when lazy
Flame Leviathan is the best class legendary in GvG. Just give it time and people will figure it out. The only thing holding it back right now is the number of people experimenting with weird new decks to try out new cards. Once the meta stabilises and aggro becomes dominant again (as it inevitably will), Leviathan Control will eat the meta.
^^ This. A thousand times.
Responses above:
1. Iron Juggernaut is better for the simple fact that its RNG will not end up killing you.
2. Flame Leviathan in most of my testing - yes, I've tested the heck out of it - is just too broad on the RNG that when you need it most it never arrives and when you don't need it it comes and says hello. Like an unannounced guest.
3. I'd never run this card in Freeze Giants. Ever. Explosive Sheep is a thousand times better and won't kill you.
4. In the end there's just tons of other cards I'd rather pick over it.
I even had to bite the bullet and craft a golden Flame Leviathan because I collect all the gold mage cards, so trust me... I really wanted it to work. As it stands it's just a terrible card.
Legend Rogue, druid when lazy
First of all, I don't think Iron Juggernaut is the best legendary ever. I do agree with the point it doesn't kill you/hurt you.
However, I also think Flame Leviathan is terrible...sorry. RNG cards that can hurt you, and you have zero control over them, are just plain terrible in my opinion.
Main points, in my eyes:
1) As said above, zero control over it. you get it in opening hand? it's just a war golem. you get it in turn 1-2? usually just 2 symmetrical damage, not really worth much. you're left with a war golem. you need to top deck a legendary to win you the game? it's usually far from being this one, more often than not it'll hurt you in close matches from what I saw/heard.
It's WAY too much situations in which it'll hurt you, far from being a rare case.
2) The opponent actually sees you draw it - it's a huge negative point IMO - he now knows at least one of the cards in your hand, and will be able to prepare for it properly if needed - maybe he wanted to put out his BGH because he thinks you no longer have big minions? now he'll keep it for the right moment.
3) I just don't think it fits mage...it might fit warrior, but I'm simply dissapointed to see this card in a mage deck that usually won't benefit from it.
4) Also as said - there are simply better options out there. simple as that.
I don't think any heavily-RNG based card can ever be considered the "best" of anything. Even when playing against aggro decks, you still need to draw Flame Leviathan at the right moment in order for it to be of any use. Got it after you mulliganed your opening hand? Too bad. Draw it when your opponent only has one 4 health minion on the board? Too bad. Draw it when you have minions with two health left on the board? Too bad.
Saying FL is the best legendary is like saying Sneed's is the best legendary. Its effect is just too unreliable to be counted upon in serious competitive matchups.
No opponent worth his salt is going to waste a vanilla Big Game Hunter against a Control Mage player. Everyone knows we play Giants, Alexstrasza, and probably Ragnaros, at a minimum. They'll be preparing answers for our massive guys anyway, because they already know they're coming. Showing them the Leviathan doesn't change anything. The opposite is true; Control Mage has so many BGH targets that having an extra 7/7 in the deck means you're more likely to outlast their removal. And this 7/7 has the benefit of not requiring a slot in your deck, since it doubles as an AoE slot.
Ragnaros the Firelord has been considered one of the best finishers in the game for a long time. Obviously RNG alone is not enough to make a card bad, if the upsides outweigh the downsides. Cost-benefit analysis is just as important with RNG cards as any others, and much more skill testing since so many noobs automatically dismiss RNG cards.
^ This. +1
The big difference of the RNG between Ragnaros and Flame Leviathan is that the RNG of Ragnaros is controlled. YOU choose when to put it down when you need it the most, and can turn the RNG most of the time in your favor. if you put it down at the wrong time, it's YOUR fault, not the RNG's fault.
In the case of Flame Leviathan, as I already said - you have zero control over it, besides the decision to put it in your deck in the first place...
Yeah, with Ragnaros you can clear off the smaller minions to ensure that it hits the targets you want. Can't do that with FL.
Flame Leviathan being the best GvG class legendary is just a really bad joke
How is this better against aggro than a Flamestrike? At least you know when you're going to get the effect and it kills buffed minions and midhealth minions. Flame Leviathan is pathetic and the games I've seen it played in have all ended in the mage killing 1 of more of his own minions.
I said class legendary, so I'm not including Trogg & Boom. I think Flame Leviathan is up there with Vol'jin and Neptulon, and better in many situations.
I don't think the vanilla test applies to Flame Leviathan, because it's primary purpose works even if you never actually summon it. If you want to apply a value test, you should evaluate it as a zero-mana AoE that sometimes has a bonus 7/7 tacked on. In that perspective, it's a LOT better value than any other AoE in the game.
For starters, Flamestrike costs seven and Leviathan costs zero. That's a pretty huge difference... Sometimes against aggro you don't survive until turn 7, you need an AoE on turn 3, and only Leviathan can do that. Also, Flamestrike can't win the game, but a 7/7 can. Also, it's a ridiculous comparison because a control deck would probably want to play them both. (Example: The Kraken) They complement each other. Control mages now have access to seven different AoE effects, which provides inevitability and redundancy. And lastly, if Leviathan killing your own minions is significant, then you're doing it wrong...
Traditionally control decks have always struggled with the balance between answers and threats. (Going way back to Draw-Go days in MtG.) You want to play as many answers as possible, but you still need some threats to be able to close out games. So you want your finishers to be as big and durable as possible to be able to win while being as slot-efficient as possible. Flame Leviathan solves this problem, because it's a finisher that doesn't require a finisher slot. It's an answer that becomes a finisher when you need it to.
Anyway, I'm obviously not going to convince any of you. Haters gonna hate. ;) So we'll just wait a while and eventually your aggro decks are gonna get pwned by someone more open minded than you running the best value AoE in the game. :D