blizzard design strategy... make cards like this in the low mana curve that win you the game if not answered, forcing people to play answers in the low mana curve which forces people to run a certain type of decks and then before you realise it, the meta is full of two things aggro and midrange decks like we see today
The title clearly states "from arena". Sure the card is strong in constructed but a 3/3 is pretty easily removed or blocked by a taunt. In arena, you don't have the luxury of choosing exactly what you want in your deck.
Fledgling is fine in arena. People tend to remember extreme scenarios when this card is game-winning if your opponent does not have an answer to it, but don't account for situations where this is simply a 3 mana 3/3 that gets easily removed. We had cards like this before that would win the game when unanswered like Micro Machine or Whirling Zap-o-matic, but those weren't problematic cards for arena either. With the large influx of Taunts like Stonehill Defender, Stubborn Gastropod, Tar Creeper etc. in this expansion and the recent spell bonus offering the potential of a win more-card like Fledgling is further limited. Sure, it's a good card, but not OP as some people seem to think. You should complain about Envenom Weapon and Vilespine Slayer instead, or the Mage epics...
True, Primordial Glyph, Meteor, Envenom Weapon, and Vilespine Slayer are all ridiculous in arena, but normally they won't hands down win you the match like the Fledgling can. If you hero power/pass your turn two and your opponent follows up with a turn 3 Fledgling, unless you have instant removal or a solid taunt, you're going to lose a ton of tempo. Either he just continues to hit face and buff up past the point where you can trade into it, or he deals so much damage that it's almost impossible to come back from. It doesn't always happen but I've seen it plenty of times. I'm not saying it should be removed from arena, as you mentioned there have been cards like this before and we just lived with them, but it's definitely game winning and sometimes unfair for the opponent (and I realize that saying a card is "unfair" in this game isn't the best but I lacked a better word).
Fledgling is fine in arena. People tend to remember extreme scenarios when this card is game-winning if your opponent does not have an answer to it, but don't account for situations when it's simply a below average 3 mana 3/3 that gets easily removed. We had cards like this before that would win the game when unanswered like Micro Machine or Whirling Zap-o-matic, but those weren't problematic cards for arena either. With the large influx of Taunts like Stonehill Defender, Stubborn Gastropod, Tar Creeper etc. in this expansion and the recent spell bonus offering the potential of a win more-card like Fledgling is further limited. Sure, it's a good card, but not OP as some people seem to think. You should complain about Envenom Weapon and Vilespine Slayer instead, or the Mage epics...
This ^^
Affected n' hindsight bias are a bitch ain't they?
Fledgling is fine in arena. People tend to remember extreme scenarios when this card is game-winning if your opponent does not have an answer to it, but don't account for situations when it's simply a below average 3 mana 3/3 that gets easily removed. We had cards like this before that would win the game when unanswered like Micro Machine or Whirling Zap-o-matic, but those weren't problematic cards for arena either. With the large influx of Taunts like Stonehill Defender, Stubborn Gastropod, Tar Creeper etc. in this expansion and the recent spell bonus offering the potential of a win more-card like Fledgling is further limited. Sure, it's a good card, but not OP as some people seem to think. You should complain about Envenom Weapon and Vilespine Slayer instead, or the Mage epics...
This ^^
Affected n' hindsight bias are a bitch ain't they?
Vicious Fledgling should be removed from arena, because it's a stupid card. You can play around Meteor and stuff, but if you can't remove Vicious Fledgling you just lose on turn 3. I agree that those other cards are OP aswell and arena might need some nerfing, but Vicious Fledgling is so hard to deal with unless you are a mage or rogue (they have good removal spells). This card only makes the other classes way worse.
It needs to stay! Its awesome that a card rarely seen in constructed is so strong in Arena, thats what makes it so great. Quit being a pansy and draft based on your expectation to see it rather than whining.
I find Stegadon Steed much more OP than FLedgling. However, if they want to slightly change Fledgling so that it can only adapt 1x each turn I'd be cool with that.
I find Stegadon Steed much more OP than FLedgling. However, if they want to slightly change Fledgling so that it can only adapt 1x each turn I'd be cool with that.
This ^^ Spikeridged Steed (which is what I think you mean) is ridiculous. On the level of Meteor and the Fledgling for frustration when I play against it
Fledgling is fine in arena. People tend to remember extreme scenarios when this card is game-winning if your opponent does not have an answer to it, but don't account for situations when it's simply a below average 3 mana 3/3 that gets easily removed. We had cards like this before that would win the game when unanswered like Micro Machine or Whirling Zap-o-matic, but those weren't problematic cards for arena either. With the large influx of Taunts like Stonehill Defender, Stubborn Gastropod, Tar Creeper etc. in this expansion and the recent spell bonus offering the potential of a win more-card like Fledgling is further limited. Sure, it's a good card, but not OP as some people seem to think. You should complain about Envenom Weapon and Vilespine Slayer instead, or the Mage epics...
I'm not sure if you've had enough runs with this card yet, but on Discord/Reddit/my own experiences, I basically see Fledgling stealing games on a daily basis. I used to think taunts are a good answer but they're not. Tar creeper and Stonehill Defender cannot kill the fledgling, and you rather not play a Defender on 3 since you're way behind on tempo. Tar creeper also isn't a threat to fledgling at all, as you can just play a 4 drop next turn to kill it. There's very limited options on turn 3, and I've had people waste Polymorph and Fireball on it (myself included). That's incredibly busted for a 3 mana neutral card.
Also, comparing it to class cards isn't a fair comparison. Class cards by their nature are supposed to be strong. The spell bonus also works both ways. If the fledgling player has answers for taunts and your next minion that can contest the fledgling, it works to the Fledgling's favour. The same logic applies to taunts too. If you hide Fledgling behind a taunt, it's easier to snowball. So basically, a taunt meta has limited effects on this card since the mechanic works both ways. A Fledgling basically needs 2 adapt on average to run away with it (if it gets windfury first turn it's basically GG). Daring reporter is way too slow compared to it and it's 4 mana.
Micro machine and whirling are also 2 health minions that cannot have HP/immunity buffs by itself. If Fledgling doesn't get Windfury on its first attempt, you can buff its health, gain elusive, stealth, divine shield, etc.
I've seen this post get the most likes and frankly, I feel like most people haven't had enough experiences and exposure with the card to believe otherwise. I play Arena basically 2-3 runs a day, as well as pay attention to discord/reddit, and there's basically complaints everywhere on every platform, almost on a daily basis.
Sure the card isn't busted *every* game, but it's definitely busted *enough* because it's a neutral card that ONLY cost 3 mana. If it can only adapt once, nobody's gonna complain. But as a snowball card, it snowballs way too damn fast. Is it the best consistent neutral rare? No, but its design is awful and should merit a modification. As the meta will last at least 2-3 more months, and more people have more experiences with just how disastrous this card really is, perhaps then people will unitedly seek an answer from Blizzard.
To sum it up, it should not be a 3 mana card with 3/3 worth of stats. Give it either 4 mana, or less stats, or only able to adapt once (like how Lotus Illusionist can only transform once). There's no other 3 mana 3/3s that can single-handedly win you the game, unless there's very niche situations (Blood Knight, MCTech). Fledgling requires a much easier "activation", and it's direct impact is simply "winning the game", not merely affecting the board state.
agree - this card is busted i'm not starting a complain - every time my opp played it, I, luckily, had answers but this card won me way too many games - if it survives another turn, it buffs itself FOR FREE and of course you will pick the adaptation, that will: a)make him adapt again(whirlwind), b)make him survive another turn (stealth, health, divine shield, cannot be target....) - it has the potential to snowball really, really hard, c) repeat a) and/or b) don't know if banning him from arena will be the right option, like tachii said, he may need a nerf for the cost
when winning my games just from one single card, i kinda felt sorry for the opponent this is in no way fair to play against, when it starts to adapt, you can't control it i want to compare it to the old Undertaker
I started out feeling the same way about the card as Zashiki, that it was a nuisance when it wins a game, but that overall it's not that big of a problem card. The one perspective that started to change my mind was something I heard Shadybunny say about why the card is bad for arena. You get rewarded with tempo by going face. It's the only card in the entire game that does this. Usually going face results in an anti-tempo result because it gives your opponent an entire turn to cast removals or to get better trades with their on-board minions. This card goes face and is rewarded with tempo (+3 health, deathrattle for 2 1/1s, or divine shield). And that is completely without the potential of getting windfury on the first hit and getting double adapt value every turn. I still don't think its as oppressive as Meteor or Vilespine in terms of an inability to draft/play around those cards and I would probably put Volcano on that list if Shaman was a more popular class, but I do tend to agree that a neutral 3 drop should not be so snowbally that it wins a game if unanswered for one turn after its played.
I've happened to play the card way past turn 3 and was still able to snowball. Again, I cannot stress the importance that it's only a 3 mana neutral rare card and should not be able to do this much given its base stats. Every adaptation card on a minion requires some kind of activator, and they most of the time only works once. Volcanosaur is a 7 mana card and it still only can adapt twice. By turn 7 you expect a late game minion to have a big impact.
You don't even need windfury for this card to be good on the first hit. +3 health, elusive, and divine shield after it's first attack also make it nearly invincible to be destroyed the turn after. With 3 possible super good outcomes in addition to windfury, there's basically a 100% chance if your first attack lands, it snowballs ridiculously fast than any other snowball card, based on its mana cost and its effect.
I disagree with the "it cannot fit in any deck archetype". It definitely can. I've been able to put this in control mages with tons of late game/early game answers and still this card will win on its own. Putting this on any resemblance of a control-aggro/tempo deck and it's just super powerful.
There's also a ton of 2/x 2 drops in the meta and if you're a class that can't ping, you're still pretty awkwardly placed if the guy plays this on 3 or coins it out. And say even if you can ping, you basically waste turn 3 to ping a 3/3 when you can just play something else.
You argue that complaints are highly biased, but don't you think your own experience is also anecdotal, and it's more limited than a wider pool of players?
Think of possible scenarios where this card is actually "below average" to drop on turn 3:
1. The best general case scenario is you play a 3/2, they have no option in their hand but to play the 3/3 fledgling, and consequently have no good turn 4 or other 3 drop. Then it's crap. 2. A Tar Creeper can't kill the fledgling on your turn, and any taunt for 3 mana and below can only trade 1 for 1 with the fledgling, or can't even kill it by itself. So average value. 3. If you have an answer, you waste your turn 3 or 4 answering, and your opponent still has the initiative. This is especially poor if they had a 1 drop and you didn't. Average value. 4. If you play a 2/3 on the turn prior, and is forced to ping it down, you also waste your turn 3-4. Above average value. 5. You play a turn 4 taunt, which is strong enough to eat it. But then you're at the mercy of their hand, if they had an answer for it or not. Average to slightly below average. 6. You have a 2/3, but you have a 2-3 mana answer for the fledgling so your 2/3 lives. Average to below average value since your opponent has the initiative to develop a stronger minion. 7. You have no answer, and all you can do is contest it with another 3 attack minion. You're at the whim of their hand and fledgling's first adapt. Above average to great.
In many of these situations, there is only a few scenarios where it's truly below average. In many cases it's an average drop, and in some cases it's absolutely broken. So you weigh the pros and cons. The only con is it's a crappy 3 drop if your opponent has a 3/2 the turn before, or you draw it late game and you're behind. But it's pro is the fact it can straight up win you the game by itself with 0 effort other than going face, for 3 mana, on turn 3. Think about that for a second, what 3 mana card and below can even do this on turn 3? Kabal Talon Priest, and even then it at least required a minion on board, and it can't snowball at all since there's no attack buffs. In any situation where you bait out a premium removal on a 3 mana card, this card is above average. In any situation where your opponent has no answer and you have a taunt, this card is basically batshit insane. In any situation where you have an answer and your opponent only has minions to contest the Fledgling, it's also totally batshit insane.
Just because your opponents typically doesn't know how to draft a deck or understand the basic fundamentals of this card game, does not mean the design of this card is okay and that nothing should change. Now, personally, I've also had my experiences with this card, and my opponent typically don't use the card very well on average, so I can understand the impression that the card is underwhelming. But everytime this card goes off when I use it myself, and it's way more frequent than MCtech, blood knight, Daring Reporter, <insert x snowball card>, it's absolutely disgusting and isn't a good design. So yeah, that's why I'm writing walls of texts about the card, even tho Blizzard won't ever hear it or likely change it either lol
lol today in arena a mage turn 3'd a fledgeling and so i had to coin out truesilver to take care of it. fucked my gameplan up, lost me the tempo, lost me the game eventually. that damn card needs to go (in arena!)
Seriously, this card gets WAY out of hand if not removed especially at the beginning of the game at turn 3. No card that is that early game should EVER decide the outcome of a match if not removed immediately.
Fledgling the Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad, Unfair. More accurate name imho.
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I find it almost every match
and if you have no answer for it. especially turn 3.
and still cant you find taunt for it.
you'll lose that game.
windfury, GG
card is broken in arena
blizzard design strategy... make cards like this in the low mana curve that win you the game if not answered, forcing people to play answers in the low mana curve which forces people to run a certain type of decks and then before you realise it, the meta is full of two things aggro and midrange decks like we see today
The title clearly states "from arena". Sure the card is strong in constructed but a 3/3 is pretty easily removed or blocked by a taunt. In arena, you don't have the luxury of choosing exactly what you want in your deck.
True, Primordial Glyph, Meteor, Envenom Weapon, and Vilespine Slayer are all ridiculous in arena, but normally they won't hands down win you the match like the Fledgling can. If you hero power/pass your turn two and your opponent follows up with a turn 3 Fledgling, unless you have instant removal or a solid taunt, you're going to lose a ton of tempo. Either he just continues to hit face and buff up past the point where you can trade into it, or he deals so much damage that it's almost impossible to come back from. It doesn't always happen but I've seen it plenty of times. I'm not saying it should be removed from arena, as you mentioned there have been cards like this before and we just lived with them, but it's definitely game winning and sometimes unfair for the opponent (and I realize that saying a card is "unfair" in this game isn't the best but I lacked a better word).
Bring back the Sorry emote!
Affected n' hindsight bias are a bitch ain't they?
Better to be the hammer than the anvil or the metal shaped between.
Maybe start drafting more cheap taunts -- even the ones that are low on the tier list -- so this doesn't happen as often?
Your deck may turn out to look weaker in a vacuum, but at least you won't be getting salty about the Fledgling.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
Golden Heroes in order:
Mage, Warlock, Priest, Shaman, Warrior, Rogue, Paladin
It needs to stay! Its awesome that a card rarely seen in constructed is so strong in Arena, thats what makes it so great. Quit being a pansy and draft based on your expectation to see it rather than whining.
I find Stegadon Steed much more OP than FLedgling. However, if they want to slightly change Fledgling so that it can only adapt 1x each turn I'd be cool with that.
Bring back the Sorry emote!
Yes, if we're going to ban a card in arena, the 3rd or 4th best neutral common/rare in Un'Goro is an outstanding choice.
The only cancer in Hearthstone is its community.
Regular NA Arena Leaderboard player.
Reached #1 in NA arena leaderboard in May 2018 with a 9.07 average!
agree - this card is busted
i'm not starting a complain - every time my opp played it, I, luckily, had answers
but this card won me way too many games - if it survives another turn, it buffs itself FOR FREE and of course you will pick the adaptation, that will: a)make him adapt again(whirlwind), b)make him survive another turn (stealth, health, divine shield, cannot be target....) - it has the potential to snowball really, really hard, c) repeat a) and/or b)
don't know if banning him from arena will be the right option, like tachii said, he may need a nerf for the cost
when winning my games just from one single card, i kinda felt sorry for the opponent
this is in no way fair to play against, when it starts to adapt, you can't control it
i want to compare it to the old Undertaker
I started out feeling the same way about the card as Zashiki, that it was a nuisance when it wins a game, but that overall it's not that big of a problem card. The one perspective that started to change my mind was something I heard Shadybunny say about why the card is bad for arena. You get rewarded with tempo by going face. It's the only card in the entire game that does this. Usually going face results in an anti-tempo result because it gives your opponent an entire turn to cast removals or to get better trades with their on-board minions. This card goes face and is rewarded with tempo (+3 health, deathrattle for 2 1/1s, or divine shield). And that is completely without the potential of getting windfury on the first hit and getting double adapt value every turn. I still don't think its as oppressive as Meteor or Vilespine in terms of an inability to draft/play around those cards and I would probably put Volcano on that list if Shaman was a more popular class, but I do tend to agree that a neutral 3 drop should not be so snowbally that it wins a game if unanswered for one turn after its played.
I've happened to play the card way past turn 3 and was still able to snowball. Again, I cannot stress the importance that it's only a 3 mana neutral rare card and should not be able to do this much given its base stats. Every adaptation card on a minion requires some kind of activator, and they most of the time only works once. Volcanosaur is a 7 mana card and it still only can adapt twice. By turn 7 you expect a late game minion to have a big impact.
You don't even need windfury for this card to be good on the first hit. +3 health, elusive, and divine shield after it's first attack also make it nearly invincible to be destroyed the turn after. With 3 possible super good outcomes in addition to windfury, there's basically a 100% chance if your first attack lands, it snowballs ridiculously fast than any other snowball card, based on its mana cost and its effect.
I disagree with the "it cannot fit in any deck archetype". It definitely can. I've been able to put this in control mages with tons of late game/early game answers and still this card will win on its own. Putting this on any resemblance of a control-aggro/tempo deck and it's just super powerful.
There's also a ton of 2/x 2 drops in the meta and if you're a class that can't ping, you're still pretty awkwardly placed if the guy plays this on 3 or coins it out. And say even if you can ping, you basically waste turn 3 to ping a 3/3 when you can just play something else.
You argue that complaints are highly biased, but don't you think your own experience is also anecdotal, and it's more limited than a wider pool of players?
Think of possible scenarios where this card is actually "below average" to drop on turn 3:
1. The best general case scenario is you play a 3/2, they have no option in their hand but to play the 3/3 fledgling, and consequently have no good turn 4 or other 3 drop. Then it's crap.
2. A Tar Creeper can't kill the fledgling on your turn, and any taunt for 3 mana and below can only trade 1 for 1 with the fledgling, or can't even kill it by itself. So average value.
3. If you have an answer, you waste your turn 3 or 4 answering, and your opponent still has the initiative. This is especially poor if they had a 1 drop and you didn't. Average value.
4. If you play a 2/3 on the turn prior, and is forced to ping it down, you also waste your turn 3-4. Above average value.
5. You play a turn 4 taunt, which is strong enough to eat it. But then you're at the mercy of their hand, if they had an answer for it or not. Average to slightly below average.
6. You have a 2/3, but you have a 2-3 mana answer for the fledgling so your 2/3 lives. Average to below average value since your opponent has the initiative to develop a stronger minion.
7. You have no answer, and all you can do is contest it with another 3 attack minion. You're at the whim of their hand and fledgling's first adapt. Above average to great.
In many of these situations, there is only a few scenarios where it's truly below average. In many cases it's an average drop, and in some cases it's absolutely broken. So you weigh the pros and cons. The only con is it's a crappy 3 drop if your opponent has a 3/2 the turn before, or you draw it late game and you're behind. But it's pro is the fact it can straight up win you the game by itself with 0 effort other than going face, for 3 mana, on turn 3. Think about that for a second, what 3 mana card and below can even do this on turn 3? Kabal Talon Priest, and even then it at least required a minion on board, and it can't snowball at all since there's no attack buffs. In any situation where you bait out a premium removal on a 3 mana card, this card is above average. In any situation where your opponent has no answer and you have a taunt, this card is basically batshit insane. In any situation where you have an answer and your opponent only has minions to contest the Fledgling, it's also totally batshit insane.
Just because your opponents typically doesn't know how to draft a deck or understand the basic fundamentals of this card game, does not mean the design of this card is okay and that nothing should change. Now, personally, I've also had my experiences with this card, and my opponent typically don't use the card very well on average, so I can understand the impression that the card is underwhelming. But everytime this card goes off when I use it myself, and it's way more frequent than MCtech, blood knight, Daring Reporter, <insert x snowball card>, it's absolutely disgusting and isn't a good design. So yeah, that's why I'm writing walls of texts about the card, even tho Blizzard won't ever hear it or likely change it either lol
Regular NA Arena Leaderboard player.
Reached #1 in NA arena leaderboard in May 2018 with a 9.07 average!
What a coincidence that Kripp's video is about Vicious Fledgling:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPxlr6iQMcI
Not going to reply any more on the subject as I've pretty much said my piece.
Regular NA Arena Leaderboard player.
Reached #1 in NA arena leaderboard in May 2018 with a 9.07 average!
lol today in arena a mage turn 3'd a fledgeling and so i had to coin out truesilver to take care of it. fucked my gameplan up, lost me the tempo, lost me the game eventually. that damn card needs to go (in arena!)
I got four (4!) in one draft. Got me to 11 wins.
Seriously, this card gets WAY out of hand if not removed especially at the beginning of the game at turn 3. No card that is that early game should EVER decide the outcome of a match if not removed immediately.
Fledgling the Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad, Unfair. More accurate name imho.