I feel like jade is about to nerf itself, with Brann cycling out at least some of the dream plays go away. Still will dominate late game, but not as terrifying.
Jade druids, the dominant jade deck and the best deck after PW in terms of winrate right now (despite it having an unfavorable match up against aggro), rarely run Brann, and are only losing living roots and the drakes. Most other archetypes are losing a lot more, and druids stand to gain if the meta slows in the slightest.
The thing is, this video only looks at the first two elemental synergy cards they revealed, which are definitely bad. It is hardly a fair comparison since they haven't shown all of the cards, and the two elemental cards they showed yesterday are really good. Also, the mechanics just do two entirely different things. Turn 4 jade spirit if you have played a jade the last turn is a 2/3 and 2/2, which is terrible. Elementals will give you a 3/5 taunt divine shield, which is nuts Sure, jades will get better eventually, but that leaves you with plenty of time to be killed first.
The comparisons to joust in this thread are also extremely confusing. Of course the cards are bad when you don't trigger their synergy. The same is true of all of the other tribal synergy cards. Blackwing corrupter is a vanilla 5/4 for 5 without synergy, which is awful. And yet, priest puts a ton of these cards in a very good competitive deck. Because you can activate the synergy and make them better! The problem with joust was that you couldn't plan on when the cards would be active. Which means, to play them, you either have to be in a situation where losing the joust is ok, or you are just coin flipping for the game. You actually have control over what cards you are playing from your hand, so elementals have almost nothing in common with joust.
Joust is not completely RNG-based. I choose the cards which go into my deck. I can manipulate the RNG by adjusting the average mana cost of my deck. I can even manipulate the RNG during the game by choosing when to Joust while remembering which cards I've already drawn so far. If I've drawn a lot of the cards from the low end of my deck's curve, my chances of winning the Joust are improved.
On topic: It's way too early to be judging entire Un'goro mechanics. Ignore the naysayers.
I don't understand this type of criticism. He's comparing new cards to the most OP mechanic in the game currently. What does he expect? Should Blizzard print cards that are even MORE ridiculously overpowered than Jades? If he expects each set to contain cards that are better than the most OP cards of the previous set, then that's not even power-creep anymore... it's more like power-blitzkrieg.
Kripp shouldn't be complaining that the new elementals "aren't as good as jades"... He should be complaining that jades are too good.
Joust is not completely RNG-based. I choose the cards which go into my deck. I can manipulate the RNG by adjusting the average mana cost of my deck. I can even manipulate the RNG during the game by choosing when to Joust while remembering which cards I've already drawn so far. If I've drawn a lot of the cards from the low end of my deck's curve, my chances of winning the Joust are improved.
On topic: It's way too early to be judging entire Un'goro mechanics. Ignore the naysayers.
Do you choose the average mana cost of your opponent's deck, or minion to spell ratio or minion weight? Joust isn't just dependent on the refinement of your own deck, not denying that it dose influence it however. I just don't think that can be an end all argument to defend joust, at it's core it is an RNG mechanic
We haven't seen all of the cards, so you can't really say if it's worse or better than Jades (although I don't hope that they're better than Jade then they'd have to be dumb opie)
The thing is that it is prettsy easy to control the Dragon trigger which makes it consistent enough if you have 8 Dragons (with 10+ it get's pretty easy). And if you keep one (like a twilight whelp or the turn 4 Ysera), you can always guarantee the trigger. With Elementals you have to play (and spend) an elemental which means you have one trigger less than before.More precisely, for every elemental synergy you want to trigger, you need to play at least one elemental. If you play two elementals a turn (lets say for tempo and mana efficiency), you spend your trigger resources double the quick. All that doesn't matter with dragons. And if you want to save a Fire Fly and you actually topdeck a good elemental, than you have to wait 1 turn to make the strong play.
As to joust, I just mentioned it because it was not a good enough mechanic due to the bad minions when the trigger failed. I see the same problem here. Sure, if everything curves out smoothly, elementals seem to have all good to insane value. But if they make too many minions that need the elemental trigger without being an elemental itself (like Tol'vir Stoneshaper ), it will have the same problem as the Joust mechanic, i.e. an inconsistent trigger resulting in anti-tempo minions. It is right that all the trigger minions are mediocre to bad when not triggered, but most triggers are easier to enable than I think elementals will be.
I think it is far too early to judge the mechanics in this expansion when we haven't even tested them out or even seen the entire expansion. Although to be fair people have done this in every single expansion, prejudging the expansion too early and quick to dismiss any new mechanics which is why whenever an expansion manages to create a successful archetype, it always ends up catching people off guard. ironically I remember when people said the jade mechanic would not work because it is too slow and greedy and some players and even some streamers dismissed cards like second rate bruiser, finja the flying star and dirty rat as awful cards.
It is way too early to just automatically dismiss anything, and to be fair kripp has got cards completely wrong in the past e.g Kripp called fandral staghelm, a card which is played in almost every druid deck a "Noob trap" card. However he did accept that he was wrong about that card. People get card predictions wrong all the time.
Joust is not completely RNG-based. I choose the cards which go into my deck. I can manipulate the RNG by adjusting the average mana cost of my deck. I can even manipulate the RNG during the game by choosing when to Joust while remembering which cards I've already drawn so far. If I've drawn a lot of the cards from the low end of my deck's curve, my chances of winning the Joust are improved.
On topic: It's way too early to be judging entire Un'goro mechanics. Ignore the naysayers.
Joust is very much RNG based. Let us remember what RNG is actually short for. You can weight the random number generator with how you build your deck. But ultimately, whether your card's effect will be active is still determined randomly. The important part of that statement is that you don't know when it will be active.
With dragons, for instance, it is obviously random whether I will have a dragon in my hand to activate twilight guardian. But I know what I have in my hand, so I can craft a game plan that will do exactly what I want it to. i can actually drop my twilight guardian knowing that I will have a taunt against pirate warrior so i can stop the damage before I start healing. If that card was master jouster instead, I may know the odds of it having taunt, but I still don't know if it will.
Kripp is generally salty about most things, but that's his style. IMO we haven't seen enough of the new cards yet to accurately say if they suck or not. But even when we do have a full set revealed it's still not possible to accurately predict what will happen until the cards go live. When MSoG went live the meta fluctuated on an almost daily basis until the handful of Tier 1 decks boiled to the top. Let's wait until we get a few weeks (or longer) into the new Ungoro meta to give the cards a semi-final grade.
I think people are misinterpreting the video, mainly because they dislike Kripp. It's pretty obvious to me what he's actually doing with this video - he's saying to Blizzard, "Please nerf jade decks"... but just calling for nerfs doesn't get through to blizzard usually. You have to attack them through the potential sales of their new packs. He, like all players who ever played fatigue or heavy control decks, absolutely hate the jade mechanic with a passion. I've got say, as someone who never played fatigue decks, I too think the jade mechanic is stupid as hell, and can't believe it lived through the testing phase.
Joust is not completely RNG-based. I choose the cards which go into my deck. I can manipulate the RNG by adjusting the average mana cost of my deck. I can even manipulate the RNG during the game by choosing when to Joust while remembering which cards I've already drawn so far. If I've drawn a lot of the cards from the low end of my deck's curve, my chances of winning the Joust are improved.
Joust is very much RNG based. Let us remember what RNG is actually short for. You can weight the random number generator with how you build your deck. But ultimately, whether your card's effect will be active is still determined randomly. The important part of that statement is that you don't know when it will be active.
Do you choose the average mana cost of your opponent's deck, or minion to spell ratio or minion weight? Joust isn't just dependent on the refinement of your own deck, not denying that it dose influence it however. I just don't think that can be an end all argument to defend joust, at it's core it is an RNG mechanic
You're both right, obviously, Joust is an RNG mechanic. The keyword there was "completely". I think Joust was an underrated mechanic that failed in execution because most of the cards it was on sucked. Yogg-&-Load using King's Elekk to draw Yogg-Saron, Hope's End is pretty much the only example of thoughtful Joust execution, IMO.
I feel like jade is about to nerf itself, with Brann cycling out at least some of the dream plays go away. Still will dominate late game, but not as terrifying.
Jade druids, the dominant jade deck and the best deck after PW in terms of winrate right now (despite it having an unfavorable match up against aggro), rarely run Brann, and are only losing living roots and the drakes. Most other archetypes are losing a lot more, and druids stand to gain if the meta slows in the slightest.
What are on earth are you talking about? Jade Druid is behind 8 or 9 decks in overall win rate right now. It lacks the clears to deal with aggro, mid-jade shaman, and dragon priest and is very susceptible to Renolock when piloted correctly. Brann is run in at least half the decks and Mulch is staple hard removal that is on its way out as well.
Azure Drake is a critical loss - not being able to play Drake + Swipe or Drake + Wrath/Roots takes away critical swing plays against aggro and midrange decks, not to mention 2 draws worth of cycle.
We need to see the rest of the cards obviously; but as it stands, Jade Druid is over-represented in the meta relative to its power level and stands to get appreciably weaker against its bad match-ups following the rotation.
I agree that elementals will probably wind up being a worse version of jade and therefore see no play. I think the problem is on the jade side more so than the elemental side. They just need to do something about Jade Idol. Jade Idol alone makes most slow archetypes obsolete. The priest deathrattle deck will probably also see no play because of Jade Idol.
I don't know whether an elemental deck will be better against aggro or not. That solely depends on how reliable you can trigger the elemental effects. Becasue if you can, most elemental cards seem to aim at aggro decks (taunt, divine shield + taunt, summon two taunts)...
But as I wrote in another thread, the "played an Elemental last turn"-trigger reminds me a little bit on joust. Or not the trigger itself, but that the cards a crap if they are not triggering. Joust cards were bad, when they lost the joust. Elementals are also bad (if not abysmal) if you can't trigger their effects. 4 mana 3/5 vanilla? 7 mana 4/4 ? That is unplayable. If it will be difficult to provide constant triggers for the elementals, I think it will fail like the joust mechanic.
Edit: And now I will see what Kripp has to say...
Why wouldn't you be able to trigger them? Just like with dragons there's probably a realiable amounts of elementals to trigger the effects consistantly, and you should normally plan ahead with them which is the whole point of the mechanic, sometimes it's a good play to play a 4/4 for 7 just to get that 8 mana 7/7 onyxia/half reno/fireballenemy face/ one-sided abyssal enforcer there will probably be some games where it's the right play.
Jade are a dumb mechanic badly designed since introduced I always hated it, shamans are losing brann which is quite big in jade shaman, and impactful on jade druid as well..
Shamans have already really good elementals at 6 and 8, and are getting more, shamans are losing early game btw which they can't fill with jade since jades don't have an early game card except jade claws.
The elemental deck might be mixed with jade and that will be an annoying thing since as I said, I really hatecthat mechanic
I guess since he said so it must be true.
The thing is, this video only looks at the first two elemental synergy cards they revealed, which are definitely bad. It is hardly a fair comparison since they haven't shown all of the cards, and the two elemental cards they showed yesterday are really good. Also, the mechanics just do two entirely different things. Turn 4 jade spirit if you have played a jade the last turn is a 2/3 and 2/2, which is terrible. Elementals will give you a 3/5 taunt divine shield, which is nuts Sure, jades will get better eventually, but that leaves you with plenty of time to be killed first.
The comparisons to joust in this thread are also extremely confusing. Of course the cards are bad when you don't trigger their synergy. The same is true of all of the other tribal synergy cards. Blackwing corrupter is a vanilla 5/4 for 5 without synergy, which is awful. And yet, priest puts a ton of these cards in a very good competitive deck. Because you can activate the synergy and make them better! The problem with joust was that you couldn't plan on when the cards would be active. Which means, to play them, you either have to be in a situation where losing the joust is ok, or you are just coin flipping for the game. You actually have control over what cards you are playing from your hand, so elementals have almost nothing in common with joust.
I don't understand this type of criticism. He's comparing new cards to the most OP mechanic in the game currently. What does he expect? Should Blizzard print cards that are even MORE ridiculously overpowered than Jades? If he expects each set to contain cards that are better than the most OP cards of the previous set, then that's not even power-creep anymore... it's more like power-blitzkrieg.
Kripp shouldn't be complaining that the new elementals "aren't as good as jades"... He should be complaining that jades are too good.
We haven't seen all of the cards, so you can't really say if it's worse or better than Jades (although I don't hope that they're better than Jade then they'd have to be dumb opie)
Who cares what Kripp thinks anyway..
Suck My Lollipop!
The thing is that it is prettsy easy to control the Dragon trigger which makes it consistent enough if you have 8 Dragons (with 10+ it get's pretty easy). And if you keep one (like a twilight whelp or the turn 4 Ysera), you can always guarantee the trigger. With Elementals you have to play (and spend) an elemental which means you have one trigger less than before.More precisely, for every elemental synergy you want to trigger, you need to play at least one elemental. If you play two elementals a turn (lets say for tempo and mana efficiency), you spend your trigger resources double the quick. All that doesn't matter with dragons. And if you want to save a Fire Fly and you actually topdeck a good elemental, than you have to wait 1 turn to make the strong play.
As to joust, I just mentioned it because it was not a good enough mechanic due to the bad minions when the trigger failed. I see the same problem here. Sure, if everything curves out smoothly, elementals seem to have all good to insane value. But if they make too many minions that need the elemental trigger without being an elemental itself (like Tol'vir Stoneshaper ), it will have the same problem as the Joust mechanic, i.e. an inconsistent trigger resulting in anti-tempo minions. It is right that all the trigger minions are mediocre to bad when not triggered, but most triggers are easier to enable than I think elementals will be.
I think it is far too early to judge the mechanics in this expansion when we haven't even tested them out or even seen the entire expansion. Although to be fair people have done this in every single expansion, prejudging the expansion too early and quick to dismiss any new mechanics which is why whenever an expansion manages to create a successful archetype, it always ends up catching people off guard. ironically I remember when people said the jade mechanic would not work because it is too slow and greedy and some players and even some streamers dismissed cards like second rate bruiser, finja the flying star and dirty rat as awful cards.
It is way too early to just automatically dismiss anything, and to be fair kripp has got cards completely wrong in the past e.g Kripp called fandral staghelm, a card which is played in almost every druid deck a "Noob trap" card. However he did accept that he was wrong about that card. People get card predictions wrong all the time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIXTLKKNafc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mDxLeSb0KI
Kripp is generally salty about most things, but that's his style. IMO we haven't seen enough of the new cards yet to accurately say if they suck or not. But even when we do have a full set revealed it's still not possible to accurately predict what will happen until the cards go live. When MSoG went live the meta fluctuated on an almost daily basis until the handful of Tier 1 decks boiled to the top. Let's wait until we get a few weeks (or longer) into the new Ungoro meta to give the cards a semi-final grade.
Do you require my assistance?
I think people are misinterpreting the video, mainly because they dislike Kripp. It's pretty obvious to me what he's actually doing with this video - he's saying to Blizzard, "Please nerf jade decks"... but just calling for nerfs doesn't get through to blizzard usually. You have to attack them through the potential sales of their new packs. He, like all players who ever played fatigue or heavy control decks, absolutely hate the jade mechanic with a passion. I've got say, as someone who never played fatigue decks, I too think the jade mechanic is stupid as hell, and can't believe it lived through the testing phase.
Oh no, if kripp says something wont see play, thats the end for that card.
Just look at Fandral
Kappa
I agree that elementals will probably wind up being a worse version of jade and therefore see no play. I think the problem is on the jade side more so than the elemental side. They just need to do something about Jade Idol. Jade Idol alone makes most slow archetypes obsolete. The priest deathrattle deck will probably also see no play because of Jade Idol.
Wow, even Kripp is jumping on the stupid bandwagon.
2 months ago: "Jade is too strong and will be OP in the next standard!"
Now: "Elementals should have been made as strong as Jade!"
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Jade simply ruined the game. Why play Cthun at turn 10 when at turn 6 Druid das a 4/4 a 5/5 and a 5/3 in play?