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In all do respect to the argument at hand its frankly not fair for you to come off saying "I just think the time invested to get good cards is not a big deal".
I take nothing away from your subjective nature and how you allocate your time. That may in fact be a true statement and it if it is, good for you. But lets just be clear and (no pun intended) put all our cards on the table.
The average joe gamer who plays for an hour a day, does his daily then plays a few ranked games can expect to earn about 50 gold a day. In two days time, he will have approximately enough to purchase a pack. A pack, by blizzards own admission, has a 1/20 chance of hitting a legendary.
So using this metric it would take about a month and a half of never missing a single day to receive a legendary. Now there are a couple other variables to mention. There are many legendaries that are generally considered worthless(van cleef, greenskin, choi, nat pagle, tink, etc.) so if you hit one of those, which is likely, you are looking at 3 months(1/4 of a year) of straight non stop daily playing to potentially achieve ONE SINGLE USABLE legendary(again no promises).
This is the point where people like to steer the conversation and tell you to play zoo or hunter agro, they will tell you legendaries aren't important and you dont need them. All that is fine and accurate but if you want to truly play the game to its full potential and have as much fun(again subjective) as someone who pays money then you are going to be waiting a long long time, years in some cases.
Look there is a reason people spend money on packs and cross their fingers that there is a legendary, and when it hits they are excited. Those are the best and most fun cards, they make for incredible synergized decks. There is no denying that, nobody is spending money just to spend money... we want the big guns.
The best way anyone has described this game is that the game is truly Free to Play until you actually realize that it is pay 2 win(which is fine, but dont deny it).
Lastly, it takes A LOT of money even if you are paying to get a collection of the staple legendaries(Baine, rag, ysera, tyrion, leeroy, alex, black knight, sylvania). It's not just a matter of pay2win, its GAUGE THE CUSTOMER to win. Its a game, Blizzard deserves to receive profit and revenue, but at some point its excessive and oversteps what is fair and frankly right for the consumer.
Remember this is the same company who's greed got in the way of game design and pretty much tanked one of their 3 major tent pole franchises(talking about diablo and the auction house)... they literally had to have the CEO post a response about how sorry and wrong they were. This type of stuff is in their blood. Just Giving these guys $50 is not nearly enough to play their game at full potential as a casual average gamer and that's a sad state of affairs as it relates to gaming in general as we move on from here.
My guess is the views of most on the forums are . . . well, I won't characterize it by region &c. But let's say certain things are accepted as normal in some parts of the world, where they are not in others, and even in those parts of the world where certain behaviors were not accepted as normal, those behaviors are increasingly the norm.
Whether or not I think this is good or bad, I will leave aside for now, but I will say that actions have repercussions. Conditions must reach a certain point before there is a widespread call for change.
It is a common attitude to dismiss the opinions of a single person, as if such things do not matter in this age of masses. However, at some point, collective individual opinion *becomes* the opinion of the masses.
Until that happens, though, remember that others are probably not going to change their minds about their opinions any more than you are likely to change yours - especially as, having read through various responses, it seems most posters have some idea of the basic situation, but project their personal experiences and views on the situation. Getting sad and frustrated isn't going to help matters any, so maybe go out and do something you enjoy.
Although there is a certain schadenfreude about it all, I suppose.
If you see a post that you find objectionable, report it, it helps keep the forum clean. But be aware people are allowed a lot of latitude.
If you find my posts to be rude, objectionable, or whatever, well, I got tired of writing polite TL; DR (Too Long, Didn't Read) posts at crybaby whiners. So now I just make it short and nasty.
If you find that funny, well and good. If you find that sad, that's even better.
Just how exactly are they gouging the customer when buying a pack is purely optional? You're complaining about the full potential of the game in order to "win" when most of the winning decks tearing up the rankings don't contain legends. What you're really crying about is wanting to play with certain decks that do contain legends and not being able to afford them. It has zero to do with being able to win. Hell, you've won 1000 games already without these cards so you are defeating your own argument.
No. You want a real example of unfair. Take a company that is built upon the back of iOS users. A company that becomes the number one non game app. A company that tells it's Apple users they are the reason they are successful, and they will always look out for its customers. This company gets so successful it is then bought out for millions by the iPads main competitor Amazon and Kindle. Reassure iPad users everything is gonna be fine, then out of the blue drop a new app on them without warning and take away their in app purchase ability. Now tell them that if they still want to use your product you gotta fork over credit card info to them, your iTunes credit is no longer a valid form of payment. Lie and say because it's easier to buy this way, but the truth is Amazon doesn't want Apple getting a piece of their pie anymore. Now add in a crappy web site with bugs. Now you have something that is TRULY unfair to the consumers that made you rich. What can you do though? When you sell out to a new master, you have to do what master says. Hail Amazon....I mean Hydra.
As I said, don't like the product. Move on. Now say Blizzard all the sudden decided to take away the ability to craft legendary cards? Well then you'd have a valid argument to consumer gouging and not being able to realize the games full potential. This is not clearly the case though. You just want more for nothing. Plain and simple.
Well, the "average Joe Gamer" who only plays a half hour a day probably doesn't expect the best cards in the game right away. I was one of these players, in fact, and I can certify that as much as I would've enjoyed opening a Ragnaros on my first pack, it certainly wouldn't have shot me up to Legend. I rather enjoy slowly earning cards and building better decks.
Anyway, if you want to argue that buying decks gives you more options, that's fine. But you're not "paying to win." Not when many of the best decks in the world, like midrange hunter and zoo, are run without a single epic or legendary. You're paying to have a broader array of options. The top players around now regularly get to legend with "free to play" decks, just to prove that it's possible, so don't try to argue that you're stuck at rank 8 because you don't have a Black Knight or whatever.
And here's the thing: if you actually ARE good enough at the game to get to the ranks where you actually need a full stable of legendaries to compete, you can probably "go infinite" in arena, so you can easily earn a pack every 5 games or so (combining arena awards with quests). Do that for a couple hours a day, and you've got 100 packs in a month, and you've still committed less time to the game than any "hardcore" WoW player.
It's such a cop out to keep saying "Many of the best decks in the world don't have a legendary!" Stop pretending there is this huge selection of scrappy decks that are constructed without legendaries and work well. You are talking about zoo and hunter. The only reason those decks don't use legendaries is because the vast majority of devastating legendaries are high mana, and other then thalnos, the low mana legendaries are lack luster. There simply is no room in their decks for high mana cards. Stop pretending someone made a choice not to use them. If there were a stable of great low mana legendaries I GUARANTEE you they would be in those decks but they don't exist.
I realize you lack reading comprehension skills, but there is a good selection of non-legendary decks all over the spectrum, from aggro to control. Many people have pointed it out to you. You can keep pretending there aren't to further your faltering arguments, though. Nobody is buying your tired schtick.
The problem here is that you are terrible at this game, and the only way you can progress is with legendaries. Many players do not, because they are competent players. After well over 1000 games, you've come to realize that you aren't competent, that you aren't good, and that the only way YOU can compete is via legendaries.
Poetic.
I skipped some pages, because after about 4-5 of them, it's the same argument being repeated. This is a long one, and I'm not going to summarize it. If you had anything better to do with your life, you wouldn't be on these forums, so suck it up a little bit. :)
I will be saying "You" a lot. This is a general 'you' and not a specific you targeted at any one person - not even the OP - because this thread comes up so many times you can't just aim a response like this at one person.
Anyway...
Blizzard is a company and they are not your friend. They are not your family. They are not here to give you something for nothing. They exist to make money - they incorporated to make money - they sell stock to shareholders to make money, who in turn expect them to make money for them. They are not a charity that is obligated to give you something for free. The days where a garage developer can crank out a game on a floppy disk and is just happy that people play it are over - those days died long ago, probably before many of the people here were even born, or at least were interested in games.
There is no "fair" here. There is no "right for the consumer." Don't like it? Play another game. Think that's not fair? Play another game in protest, then. If you want to talk about consumer rights, then know this: You have none. You have a wallet, and that's it. They aren't lying about their game (Blizzard has said since the beginning exactly what microtransactions will be in the game, and what they will sell), they are not physically harming you with their product. You have no rights, nor do you have a reasonable expectation of rights.
The fact that there are no exclusive items that you can only pay to get is better than most games that offer microtransactions can offer.
The fact that there is, in-game, ANY way at all to earn a currency that lets you buy their product, without having to spend actual money which helps them, is more than they needed to give you. Their biggest CCG/TCG competitor: Magic The Gathering, does not do that. Do you know what they probably had to do to convince the financial analysts at Blizzard to even allow that? You probably don't, and they didn't need to - and fiscally, probably shouldn't have.
This is going to go on for a while still. Go get some coffee - I'll wait. We good? Okay...
Most people have an over-inflated sense of their own skill. It IS possible to play and be competitive in Hearthstone for free. Most people are not good enough to accomplish this without a significant time investment. It is hard for anyone's ego to admit they are not good enough to do anything - let alone something as trivial and ultimately meaningless as a video game - but there it is. So you end up with arguments like, "They paid to win!" and "Their spending money gave them an advantage that I cannot overcome!" But the fact is, other people have been able to, therefore the reason you cannot is that you are not as good as they are. You think you are, because you can't come to terms with the fact, but you're not. I am not. Most of us are not. Want proof? Other people have. Why didn't you? Because you're not that good.
For every person, like Trump, who is skilled enough in Arena to "go infinite" (that is, his earnings in Arena matches out-strips the costs), there are a thousand who cannot, probably more, who only get 3-4 wins, and do not make up the cost of admission.
IT's like the WoW raiding forums, though: All you ever hear about here is "This is my legendary deck!", "This is my 80% win rate deck!", "Here is my stream - watch me 12-0 my arenas!" .... in WoW terms it's "I can do 700k DPS", and "My guild is 12/12 heroic and we're bored". You never realize, by visiting any fan or official forum, exactly WHERE the average player lands, and few people are humble enough to admit that they're just that: average.
The game is free to play. If you want it to be free to be competitive, you have to be good. If you're not that good, you may have to spend some money to build a deck that someone else came up with, and that won't guarantee you any wins, because you can only carry an average player so far until they run up against the people better then they are.
My name is Detton, and I am an average player who doesn't expect a company to give him anything for free, and I am happy that a game like this is available and I am allowed the opportunity to play it without having to spend any money. I topped out at around rank 11, and while I keep pushing to do better, I cannot justify the expense to buy the cards to flesh out my decks to my satisfaction, so I grind, and I accept the fact that the people above me are better, on average, then I am. For now, anyway.
The difference is, I admit where my failings are, and I can improve. When all you have is "They paid for their advantage!", there's no way to help that.
I think this really just stems from you not getting the instant gratification you're used to getting from the videogames you play. Last time I mentioned "If time is such a big factor, why are you whining about videogames on a forum? Why are you playing videogames at all if time is such a big factor?", that part of my post was ignored. and i'm plenty certain that if you respond to this, it'll be an attempt at a smarmy circular argument blahblahblah it serves no purpose. and there is really no purpose to this thread. anyone that lays out good points against your arguments and mentions your selective reading tendencies gets a super whiny "omg ur attacking me pls mods help i'm being attacked" and it doesn't make any sense. After all of the outcry from more than a handful of people to close this thread, I'm surprised the mods haven't done anything about it. I don't understand their reasoning and would like a bit of an explanation why they're putting one user above tens of others.
There's no reason for this post to be reported as it brings up many points of conversation expressed in this thread, I implore the mods to lock or remove the thread. I think OP has gotten the attention they so desired and that should be the end of it.
So what is it then? Are you mad you can't make top tier without Legends? Or are you mad that you have a harder path to a complete collection? Most people are seeing the latter. Please make up your mind already.
Is F2P a harder slog to a complete collection? Sure. Is it fair? Absolutely. You guys are getting a free to play game. With free rewards for playing that will ultimately get you a complete collection over time. You are using server space and bandwidth and not paying a single dime for it. That right there is where your sense of entitlement should stop. You are getting a service that is being provided to you off the dollars of other folks, who are not paying to WIN, but are paying to COLLECT. A complete collection does not make you a better player. If every single player decided to stop buying packs with real money, and play the free aspect of this game exclusively, Hearthstone would cease to exist. Period. Any example listed as to how it can be done alternately is moot. This is how Blizzard decided to make their money. Take it or leave it. The free time you spend playing their product for free is irrelevant to them.
P.S.- dgoodm03 was typing this around the same time and nailed it even better than I did. Bravo sir. Bravo.
I also agree this thread needs to be locked. The OP will never see the game for what it is.
Thank you. All you needed to say.
Recheck my post. That was a typo. A complete collection will NOT in fact help a bad player. And you know it.
Thats all you had to say... Thanks
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StaffI'll make 1 last post to remind you guys not to make personal attacks, if it continues after this I'm just going to hand out warnings to everyone involved and close the thread.
There's NEVER a reason to attack some personally. Attack their arguments, not their character. It's really that simple.
If you see a bad post on the forum use the report function under it, so I or someone else of the moderation team can take care of it!
Okay, let's recast that. Say the one that doesn't play the legendaries gets to alter cards in their deck, with full knowledge of the legendaries that the other is playing. Which has the advantage now?
Replying to a 7 year post ok. Hi!
Who dug this out of graveyard 😂
Here are some cheap decks, that work great:Mage:https://hsreplay.net/decks/HSocmBuLF34vCqJkDB85db/#gameType=RANKED_STANDARDMade it to D5 while learning the deck, and had a steady 70% win rate.Cost: 1180 dust.Rogue:https://hsreplay.net/decks/M0RvxJNBn6COLsITiAiash/#gameType=RANKED_STANDARDAlso made it to D5, while learning the deck, with a 70% win rate.Cost: 1120 dust.I would also like to clarify; I don't attempt to rank anymore after D5 as it's the least amount of effort, for the greatest reward. If I was to try, legend wouldn't be an issue with these decks with enough games.However, I would like to add that these decks are very "aggressive", and not very fun to play if you enjoy quite interactive gameplay. I do agree that Blizzard tends to gate more "fun" decks behind a bigger paywall. It's weird as these cheaper decks also perform well, if not better than certain of those meta decks.CmonBruh, who revived this thread.-
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StaffThis got dragged up by spam. Closing here.
CLOSED.
If you see a bad post on the forum use the report function under it, so I or someone else of the moderation team can take care of it!