Hi, I'm a Hs player and couple days ago i was talking to my friends about this game, I play hs from the beginning becoming also legend in some season. They trashed away hearthstone compared to yu-gi-oh and Magic, they said that hs is very simple compared to hs even at high level. I agree with them if we compare number of cards in hs, but I think that lot of professional magic players sucks in hs, at least, at high level(kibler for example) How u compare the evolution of hs with the other CCG?
Kibler sucks at hearthstone? I'm pretty sure Kibler plays hearthstone purely for fun, not to be a try hard. Even when ranking up during a season he tries to play something new and fun, unlike most other "pro" players, who hit a brick wall at some point and continue and switch to try harding just to get legend for the season.
The game IS simpler and also very different from other card games. This not an insult: the game was designed this way. They weren't attempting to compete with MTG or other card games and were trying to hit a market that found those card games inaccessible. It honestly wasn't even meant to be a competitive thing. That was pushed only due to the public basically threatening the company at gun point to turn it into an e-sport.
So yeah it IS simple compared to MTG/Yu-Gi-Oh/whatever. The problem is that many see this as a Bad Thing and that HS was messed up because of it.
As far as professional level, firstly I wouldn't say kibler 'sucks' at it. However, the two are VERY different in mentalities and, thus, you can't just grab your MTG knowledge and go to town here. In fact, if you are stuck believing that your old card game is THE way card games are to be played you'll be at a disadvantage in HS since you'll approach the game from the wrong standpoint.
A question based on that actually: is it normal in HIGH competitive play in those other card games to 'stick' to one deck type? As in, even though there IS a rock paper scissors mentality to the decks do people there still stick to just aggro or just control or just midrange ramp? I just realized a lot of folks with such experience comming here seem 'stuck' which hurts them dramatically compared to players who regularly embrace every style.
Hearthstone is still expanding on its cardpool and mechanics, don't let them write it off yet. Personally I prefer this over Magic, watching Magic makes it look needlessly complicated, and hearthstone is fun both to watch and play. Naturally it is up to Blizzard to release more cards that give more choices during a game and they can influence how skill-based this game becomes.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you look closely, you can see this is a signature and not a comment. Why are you reading? Stop reading this. Did you read this too? Dang you must like reading.
It's irrelevant but skillwise HS is by far the most easy and simple CCG of them all. MTG>>>>>>Yugioh>>HS. Competitively the skillcap of HS is VERY low, often you can play an entire match where every turn was automatic because the only decision was an obvious one. It was made to be this way, so that any novice could pick up HS in an instant and have a legit chance to win games (so long as they buy enough packs!).
but like I said it's irrelevant because HS just kicked MTG and Yugiohs ass royally by becoming better and more successful within a short time. Wizards should be embarrassed at how badly they just got handed by a company that had no experience on card games whatsoever. They had the opportunity to spruce up their own Online CCG for years now and were lazy about it. Now HS is taking the CCG world by storm and let's be honest, online is the future of CCG's.
Magic is way more fun, and more skill based than hearthstone. But also LOT more expensive!
If I would be rich, I would play mtg all day long.. But because it's so expensive, hearthstone is really good. That's why I think hs is better.
Some mtg cards costs over 20€-100€, and that's a lot of money.. And sometimes you need 4 of those 20€-100€ cards in your deck. Wow.. I have played both btw :D
I have never actually played MTG but I tried reading the rulebook and I found it absurd.... I've been playing Yugioh for a long time (right now I'm "on strike" cause the meta sucks) and Yugioh's game mechanics and card interactions are way more complicated than Hearthstone's... Even managing to understand how a card works just by reading the text sometimes it's pretty difficult.... There are even cards that "will miss the timing" in certain situations and you won't be able to use their effects at all,anyway I could talk about Rulings for hours, but the point is that HS and Yugioh are 2 completely different games I don't even think they are comparable...
Skillwise even if Yugioh is more complex in its mechamics I don't think it requires that much skill,especailly right now almost all the Decks do the same thing... it's more autopliot than playing Secret Paladin... At least in HS there are still Decks that require a bit of thought and planification of your next turns it's not just "Search the tutor of the tutor the searches the op card that makes you go +3 and wreck your opponent's strategy" and rinse and repeat til you win....
3. Mind games, i.e. altering your play due to what your opponent will (be able to) do. Although not a big part of these kind of card games (there's not many ways to alter your hidden information), Hearthstone trumps Magic because cards are more interactive (creatures can attack creatures) and because the fixed mana system means you and your opponent are more likely to play in 'predictable' ways.
I'm sorry but this is just plain wrong. Attacking creatures means nothing, as blocking and attacking and tapped creatures is far more complex and more mindgamey than HS. In magic, there are WAY more cards than HS to think about. You always need to think about what could be in your opponent's sideboard, or what deck are they playing, as in hearthstone we have classes to determine what cards you need to play against. For example, imagine in HS you were playing against a player that had warrior, paladin, and mage cards. You would need to play around much more. Second point, magic is an interactive game in the real world. Bluffing is a thing people can and should do. Finally, magic has instants, meaning that you are not safe no matter what. You don't have 100% lethal, or whatever. Simply leaving up mana in magic can tell your opponent something that they may have to be aware of.
It's irrelevant but skillwise HS is by far the most easy and simple CCG of them all. MTG>>>>>>Yugioh>>HS. Competitively the skillcap of HS is VERY low, often you can play an entire match where every turn was automatic because the only decision was an obvious one. It was made to be this way, so that any novice could pick up HS in an instant and have a legit chance to win games (so long as they buy enough packs!).
There is one thing to consider though. In HS, A LOT of the skill comes from before the match itself: in the decks themselves. I liken it to Pokemon.. the actual game. The matches themselves are heavily sequenced and aren't as skill based as starcraft, but to GET there, requires a properly trained team. THAT requires months of studying and getting down into the code and mechanics that makes everyone else cry, along with researching just WHAT pokemon, and what combinations of them to spend those many many months on.
In HS, playing a control warrior isn't THAT hard at the high level, but knowing WHEN to bring control warrior and when to play him is when the pros spend all of their time and start bringing out the spreadsheets.
So you can argue that the matches are easy to critique because most of the difficult work is done for them. That's not even getting to the fact that most people who watch and critique don't judge the entire match: just key individual turns, with announcers and knowledge of the opponent's hand. Thus they aren't actually analyzing and making decisions several turns ahead with limited information like most actual tournament goers have to do.
(knowing that you need to eviscerate your own minion to play a loatheb on your full board to stop mage AOE is one thing. Planning out your board 5 turns ago to put yourself into that situation so that one Cone of Cold won't ruin you later: I doubt many people did THAT first time they watched that game.)
but like I said it's irrelevant because HS just kicked MTG and Yugiohs ass royally by becoming better and more successful within a short time. Wizards should be embarrassed at how badly they just got handed by a company that had no experience on card games whatsoever. They had the opportunity to spruce up their own Online CCG for years now and were lazy about it. Now HS is taking the CCG world by storm and let's be honest, online is the future of CCG's.
I wouldn't mock MTG or YGO too badly. Blizzard has been doing this for decades in various genres. It's just what they do. Assuming that they didn't ruin the hype of the game, Overwatch will follow a similar style to HS, while Heroes looks like it's going the D3 route of a bad start and a slow, but successful recovery.
Kibler definitely doesn't suck at Hearthstone, he just doesn't take the game seriously. Every CCG has its draw backs, Magic has a terrible resource management system where Hearthstone's lack of interactivity causes it to iterate towards Face Aggro and OTK Combo with little differentiation in the card pool because there are no neutral spells. That and the game designers for Hearthstone are clearly retarded given their stance on RNG being "skill intensive," but whatever.
There are three skills required to play card games well:
1. Evaluation, i.e. determining how much value a card gives by being played. Hearthstone has more of this than Magic, due to more cards being played (instead of land), so your ability to evaluate is tested more often. There's also the hero power. Magic has Planeswalkers, though.
2. Creativity, i.e. finding ways to play cards in unique ways. Magic excels in this due to having cards that have greater effects and often more text/choices on cards.
3. Mind games, i.e. altering your play due to what your opponent will (be able to) do. Although not a big part of these kind of card games (there's not many ways to alter your hidden information), Hearthstone trumps Magic because cards are more interactive (creatures can attack creatures) and because the fixed mana system means you and your opponent are more likely to play in 'predictable' ways.
A lot of folks focus on the creativity aspect, probably because the CCG genre does it better than any other type of game. But if you're looking for a game that tests your ability to play a game, they're both equal. Besides, both games really have no limit as to how much you can get good at them, so you should instead simply ask yourself which game has you having a better time.
As for the Kibler example: as far as I know, he practices for tournaments for both games just as much.
i've won and lost countless of magic games due to mind games. I think you're completely wrong there. THere is like no room for mind games in HS. everything is pretty basic. and theres not many if ANY situations where you can bluff something to your opponent and have it matter. say, if my opponent sticks a creature in magic and end of turn I dont kill it, that could mean a lot of things. In magic If my opponent sticks a ysera or a dr boom, I cant "mind game" them by not killing it, I simply just lose tbh.
It's irrelevant but skillwise HS is by far the most easy and simple CCG of them all. MTG>>>>>>Yugioh>>HS. Competitively the skillcap of HS is VERY low, often you can play an entire match where every turn was automatic because the only decision was an obvious one. It was made to be this way, so that any novice could pick up HS in an instant and have a legit chance to win games (so long as they buy enough packs!).
but like I said it's irrelevant because HS just kicked MTG and Yugiohs ass royally by becoming better and more successful within a short time. Wizards should be embarrassed at how badly they just got handed by a company that had no experience on card games whatsoever. They had the opportunity to spruce up their own Online CCG for years now and were lazy about it. Now HS is taking the CCG world by storm and let's be honest, online is the future of CCG's.
but hearthstone's success has NOTHING to do with it being a better ccg than magic.
It's irrelevant but skillwise HS is by far the most easy and simple CCG of them all. MTG>>>>>>Yugioh>>HS. Competitively the skillcap of HS is VERY low, often you can play an entire match where every turn was automatic because the only decision was an obvious one. It was made to be this way, so that any novice could pick up HS in an instant and have a legit chance to win games (so long as they buy enough packs!).
but like I said it's irrelevant because HS just kicked MTG and Yugiohs ass royally by becoming better and more successful within a short time. Wizards should be embarrassed at how badly they just got handed by a company that had no experience on card games whatsoever. They had the opportunity to spruce up their own Online CCG for years now and were lazy about it. Now HS is taking the CCG world by storm and let's be honest, online is the future of CCG's.
This is also completely wrong. Magic has been around for 20 years. |The community is so much better than HS, the mechanics are rich, there are so many awesome formats, so many cards to experiment with them, and is overall a better game. Not trying to say hearthstone sucks or anything, but there is no way that a game like hearthstone could top a game that has been evolving for 20 years.
I agree, with you, when you say that Kibler is an expert CCG player, and he can "easy" rank the ladder, and play unusual Decks but, if we analyze the fact: if you were Kibler and you can just focus a little on this new game called HS,and have the possibility to earn lot of money, (much more than MTG tournaments), why u don't focus on this new game, but still stay on MTG? I think as a pro player,you have to empower your business right?
I agree with them if we compare number of cards in hs, but I think that lot of professional magic players sucks in hs, at least, at high level(kibler for example)
HS punishes skill for the benefit of everyone having a chance at having a better winning percentage. Your skill will cap as far as RNG goes. The only thing you need to be successful in HS is playing a lot of games and being able to identify the meta for the day you can play a lot of games. The real skill comes in adapting to what type of decks you are facing. And that's about it. Yes trading is important but you can make perfect trades and lose repeatedly because your RNG sucks and your deck is not to par to the meta. And really, How many times have you seen a retarded aggro deck making bad trades or not trading and still pulling a win?
For example, the last 3 hunters I have faced today they have all gotten Hoffer from Animal Companion every single time. WTF am I supposed to do against that?
HS = RNG > Skill * 9
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Great art can never be created without great suffering.
I agree, with you, when you say that Kibler is an expert CCG player, and he can "easy" rank the ladder, and play unusual Decks but, if we analyze the fact: if you were Kibler and you can just focus a little on this new game called HS,and have the possibility to earn lot of money, (much more than MTG tournaments), why u don't focus on this new game, but still stay on MTG? I think as a pro player,you have to empower your business right?
Except, kibler ever since I started following him in magic(Honestly I think the very first time I started following him was around Torment with a braids deck for Regionals, you can google torment release date and find out how long ago that was), He has striked me as somebody who not only loves to have fun with what hes doing, but also a deck brewer. There is VERY LITTLE brewing potential in Heartstone compared to Magic, which is why I dont think Kibler will ever just drop Magic completely for Hearthstone.
To everybody who hasnt actually followed Magic, HS really isnt in the same book as Magic. One thing about Magic is actually MEETING PEOPLE and INTERACTING WITH PEOPLE, and not only being able to say "Well Met!", And casual magic is like Tavern Brawl x9310939193849128741892478192748912478912748129848978. Not once have I played casual games around a card shop and had people just netdeck some popular standard deck. However, go into the "casual" room in hearthstone, and thats all you get lol.
and I also dont think most of hearthstone only players understand what people mean by Hearthstone having a low skill ceiling. Like for example, in the NBA, there is no "skill ceiling" other than personal ceiling. But this is a card game, so let me give a different example. There is a higher skill ceiling in magic than in HS. Lets say in Magic, there are these demographic groups - New player, Casual player,Regular player, Local store "shark", PTQ grinder, MTG HOF, PT grinder, GP grinder, Worlds qualified.... honestly I could go on. So to make this short, in magic it is pretty unrealistic for somebody at the "PTQ grinder" level to win Worlds, BECAUSE the skill difference between PTQ grinder and say something further up the "list" is quite different....
In Hearthstone we have - New player, Casual Player, Rank 25 player, Rank 11-20 player, Rank 10-Legend, High legend player. Unlike in Magic, it is easily possible for a rank 10 player to beat a Legend player because there is very little in the way of "skill" going on in HS. Now part where the skill ceiling REALLY kicks in, is the difference between a rank 5 player and #1 legend rank player is SO SMALL and irrelevant that it comes down to, who played more games this season? And instead of like actually qualifying for a tournament, Blizzard wants you to play a lot of ladder and rank high. None of that has anything to do with player skill.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Hi, I'm a Hs player and couple days ago i was talking to my friends about this game, I play hs from the beginning becoming also legend in some season.
They trashed away hearthstone compared to yu-gi-oh and Magic, they said that hs is very simple compared to hs even at high level.
I agree with them if we compare number of cards in hs, but I think that lot of professional magic players sucks in hs, at least, at high level(kibler for example)
How u compare the evolution of hs with the other CCG?
Kibler sucks at hearthstone? I'm pretty sure Kibler plays hearthstone purely for fun, not to be a try hard. Even when ranking up during a season he tries to play something new and fun, unlike most other "pro" players, who hit a brick wall at some point and continue and switch to try harding just to get legend for the season.
dont kid yourself.
The game IS simpler and also very different from other card games. This not an insult: the game was designed this way. They weren't attempting to compete with MTG or other card games and were trying to hit a market that found those card games inaccessible. It honestly wasn't even meant to be a competitive thing. That was pushed only due to the public basically threatening the company at gun point to turn it into an e-sport.
So yeah it IS simple compared to MTG/Yu-Gi-Oh/whatever. The problem is that many see this as a Bad Thing and that HS was messed up because of it.
As far as professional level, firstly I wouldn't say kibler 'sucks' at it. However, the two are VERY different in mentalities and, thus, you can't just grab your MTG knowledge and go to town here. In fact, if you are stuck believing that your old card game is THE way card games are to be played you'll be at a disadvantage in HS since you'll approach the game from the wrong standpoint.
A question based on that actually: is it normal in HIGH competitive play in those other card games to 'stick' to one deck type? As in, even though there IS a rock paper scissors mentality to the decks do people there still stick to just aggro or just control or just midrange ramp? I just realized a lot of folks with such experience comming here seem 'stuck' which hurts them dramatically compared to players who regularly embrace every style.
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.
Hearthstone is still expanding on its cardpool and mechanics, don't let them write it off yet. Personally I prefer this over Magic, watching Magic makes it look needlessly complicated, and hearthstone is fun both to watch and play. Naturally it is up to Blizzard to release more cards that give more choices during a game and they can influence how skill-based this game becomes.
If you look closely, you can see this is a signature and not a comment. Why are you reading? Stop reading this. Did you read this too? Dang you must like reading.
HS is definitely more skill intensive than garbages like MTG and Yu-Gi-Oh.
"Put your face in the light!" - Tirion Fordring
It's irrelevant but skillwise HS is by far the most easy and simple CCG of them all. MTG>>>>>>Yugioh>>HS. Competitively the skillcap of HS is VERY low, often you can play an entire match where every turn was automatic because the only decision was an obvious one. It was made to be this way, so that any novice could pick up HS in an instant and have a legit chance to win games (so long as they buy enough packs!).
but like I said it's irrelevant because HS just kicked MTG and Yugiohs ass royally by becoming better and more successful within a short time. Wizards should be embarrassed at how badly they just got handed by a company that had no experience on card games whatsoever. They had the opportunity to spruce up their own Online CCG for years now and were lazy about it. Now HS is taking the CCG world by storm and let's be honest, online is the future of CCG's.
Magic is way more fun, and more skill based than hearthstone. But also LOT more expensive!
If I would be rich, I would play mtg all day long.. But because it's so expensive, hearthstone is really good. That's why I think hs is better.
Some mtg cards costs over 20€-100€, and that's a lot of money.. And sometimes you need 4 of those 20€-100€ cards in your deck. Wow.. I have played both btw :D
SOMEDAY, I WILL HIT LEGEND 1.
I have never actually played MTG but I tried reading the rulebook and I found it absurd.... I've been playing Yugioh for a long time (right now I'm "on strike" cause the meta sucks) and Yugioh's game mechanics and card interactions are way more complicated than Hearthstone's... Even managing to understand how a card works just by reading the text sometimes it's pretty difficult.... There are even cards that "will miss the timing" in certain situations and you won't be able to use their effects at all,anyway I could talk about Rulings for hours, but the point is that HS and Yugioh are 2 completely different games I don't even think they are comparable...
Skillwise even if Yugioh is more complex in its mechamics I don't think it requires that much skill,especailly right now almost all the Decks do the same thing... it's more autopliot than playing Secret Paladin... At least in HS there are still Decks that require a bit of thought and planification of your next turns it's not just "Search the tutor of the tutor the searches the op card that makes you go +3 and wreck your opponent's strategy" and rinse and repeat til you win....
"この 先は 暗い 夜道 だけが も 知らない それでも信じて 進むんだ 星が その道 を 少し でも 照らしてくをるのを"
There is one thing to consider though. In HS, A LOT of the skill comes from before the match itself: in the decks themselves. I liken it to Pokemon.. the actual game. The matches themselves are heavily sequenced and aren't as skill based as starcraft, but to GET there, requires a properly trained team. THAT requires months of studying and getting down into the code and mechanics that makes everyone else cry, along with researching just WHAT pokemon, and what combinations of them to spend those many many months on.
In HS, playing a control warrior isn't THAT hard at the high level, but knowing WHEN to bring control warrior and when to play him is when the pros spend all of their time and start bringing out the spreadsheets.
So you can argue that the matches are easy to critique because most of the difficult work is done for them. That's not even getting to the fact that most people who watch and critique don't judge the entire match: just key individual turns, with announcers and knowledge of the opponent's hand. Thus they aren't actually analyzing and making decisions several turns ahead with limited information like most actual tournament goers have to do.
(knowing that you need to eviscerate your own minion to play a loatheb on your full board to stop mage AOE is one thing. Planning out your board 5 turns ago to put yourself into that situation so that one Cone of Cold won't ruin you later: I doubt many people did THAT first time they watched that game.)
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.
Kibler definitely doesn't suck at Hearthstone, he just doesn't take the game seriously. Every CCG has its draw backs, Magic has a terrible resource management system where Hearthstone's lack of interactivity causes it to iterate towards Face Aggro and OTK Combo with little differentiation in the card pool because there are no neutral spells. That and the game designers for Hearthstone are clearly retarded given their stance on RNG being "skill intensive," but whatever.
Hearthstone is fun but it needs to evolve more before it becomes anything extra special IMO.
I agree, with you, when you say that Kibler is an expert CCG player, and he can "easy" rank the ladder, and play unusual Decks but, if we analyze the fact: if you were Kibler and you can just focus a little on this new game called HS,and have the possibility to earn lot of money, (much more than MTG tournaments), why u don't focus on this new game, but still stay on MTG?
I think as a pro player,you have to empower your business right?
Great art can never be created without great suffering.
But when we play on ladder for example, constantly adapt our game to our opponent, for example when we play against warlock we have to move against:
Zoolock
Handlock
Malylock
renolock
combolock
Midrange
To everybody who hasnt actually followed Magic, HS really isnt in the same book as Magic. One thing about Magic is actually MEETING PEOPLE and INTERACTING WITH PEOPLE, and not only being able to say "Well Met!", And casual magic is like Tavern Brawl x9310939193849128741892478192748912478912748129848978. Not once have I played casual games around a card shop and had people just netdeck some popular standard deck. However, go into the "casual" room in hearthstone, and thats all you get lol.
and I also dont think most of hearthstone only players understand what people mean by Hearthstone having a low skill ceiling. Like for example, in the NBA, there is no "skill ceiling" other than personal ceiling. But this is a card game, so let me give a different example. There is a higher skill ceiling in magic than in HS. Lets say in Magic, there are these demographic groups - New player, Casual player,Regular player, Local store "shark", PTQ grinder, MTG HOF, PT grinder, GP grinder, Worlds qualified.... honestly I could go on. So to make this short, in magic it is pretty unrealistic for somebody at the "PTQ grinder" level to win Worlds, BECAUSE the skill difference between PTQ grinder and say something further up the "list" is quite different....
In Hearthstone we have - New player, Casual Player, Rank 25 player, Rank 11-20 player, Rank 10-Legend, High legend player. Unlike in Magic, it is easily possible for a rank 10 player to beat a Legend player because there is very little in the way of "skill" going on in HS. Now part where the skill ceiling REALLY kicks in, is the difference between a rank 5 player and #1 legend rank player is SO SMALL and irrelevant that it comes down to, who played more games this season? And instead of like actually qualifying for a tournament, Blizzard wants you to play a lot of ladder and rank high. None of that has anything to do with player skill.