Giving the deck a fair loving with a list that is different enough from the 2 in the op. Main notable difference is probably the lack of consecration and the double cult master. It looked like using spells to clear is hugely disadvantageous in that deck so I tried to focus board control solely based on minion combat.
Am currently 7-3 with the deck. I think it has some good matchups but generally inferior to secret or even midrange paladin in my opinion.
The deck can only finish you as early as turn 10 and that is pretty unlikely even. Unlike patron or miracle or even regular midrange paladin you have absolutely no chance of overwhelming your opponent with tempo or burst. Anyfin is the only card that enables you killing your opponent.
With the current lists available I think it's a t3 deck at most.
you have absolutely no chance of overwhelming your opponent with tempo or burst. Anyfin is the only card that enables you killing your opponent.
That's why you need control deck as base. Out-valuing opponent is general plan against anything fast, and it works like a charm, even without anyfin as a finisher.
This deck is very strong. Murloc new meta. I think its a fun deck for sure and very strong but im gona say after a while its going to get annoying when you want to pay control and cant because you get raw doged by this deck.
you have absolutely no chance of overwhelming your opponent with tempo or burst. Anyfin is the only card that enables you killing your opponent.
That's why you need control deck as base. Out-valuing opponent is general plan against anything fast, and it works like a charm, even without anyfin as a finisher.
..which explains why the deck is so strong. It sounds to be a greedy control deck with a 10 mana card finisher, sort of like a fatter druid deck.
Which works very well since many are choosing slower decks that drag the game out.
And the cycle continues. Aggro metas result in the decks going Tempo to stop them. Tempo gets countered by control so people go control. Control gets slower and greedier to eat other control decks until they become vulnerable to aggro, then we go back to aggro.
Sounds pretty healthy to me. Though a little sad since I love Tempo. Oh well. Explains why my aggro decks have been working oddly well lately.
But yes, this is why you cannot CANNOT stick to one deck type in a card game. The meta, if it's healthy, CANNOT stick to one style and will cycle from one to the other regularly. Prey brings the predator which becomes prey to another. Word feeds bird which feeds hawk which dies to disease and becomes food for worms.
Has anyone lost to this deck a lot yet? I've only encountered it once, and it was pretty easy to handle with priest. I imagine any defensive decks are going to have no trouble, and the particularly fast aggro decks are likely to run right by just like they always tend to do with Palladin. Admittedly my experience with it is rather slim, so take this with a gain of salt, but I think Pally OTKO is going to be less powerful in the long run than Shaman Murloc, which I also don't think makes t1.
I lost to it using control priest. I had him down to 18 health on turn 15 or so.He then dropped Anyfin for 30+ damage.
My first turn with priest I had him killed before the combo could develop, but the second time, my opponent did a good job of really making me make choices on trades instead of going face to fight for board control. In the end, however, I DID establish board control, was ahead on HP 30 - 11, was ahead in card advantage at 9-3, and had a solid hand with a mix of minions and spells, even surviving the first "Anyfin."
The second play of the card, however, showed 4 charge and 3 Warleaders (I believe they're called) worth 32 charge damage and 56 damage overall.
Obviously, the only way to survive that turn would have been through a high health or deathrattle taunt into taunt, but that would have been proactive.
This was a non-reactive play, I had no opportunity to counter, and in fact, maintaining board control is what allowed the combo to develop.
"Tech in Murlocs" is not an answer, nor is "Play your taunts after T10," especially considering Blizzard says they don't want decks that are non-interactive, or in this case, punish you for maintaining board control by killing minions.
Definitely not a salt thread; whether intentional or not, I credit my opponent for forcing trades to enable the combo... Murlocs have to die for Anyfin to have any effect. At rank 19, however, I doubt that was the case.
Thinking bout it further it's different from combo druid which relies on two cards, four cards for double combo, with board control and some face damage to work.
This combo allowed the opponent to let me kill his murlocs, do nothing to my hero, and roll RNG for a win.
To use community words: Vomit your hand then vomit your hand a couple more times with one card doesn't seem fun or interactive to play, much less to play against.
You're punished for letting the murlocs synergize and survive, and you're punished for killing them.
So is the next nerf going to be to charge (which was cited previously as the problem)? Charge can no longer target the hero (ala Icehowl). Icehowl would have to be changed, but this would solve pretty much all of the OTK issues people have had nerfed over time.
It seems like each time a deck of this "genre" is introduced in the game it's easier, more stable and with less requirements than the previous one.
How exactly do you call "less requirements" on a deck with OTK combo that in order to work needs to:
- Find exactly 7 specific minions in own deck and have them all die (without transformations or schuffling into deck - looking at you Entomb)
- WHILE NOT having any of the specific type minions die on opponents side (granted murlocs are not very common in constructed, but still can be produced by many random effects like shredders)
- AND AFTER ALL THAT find a copy of spell that costs 10 mana and play it while enemy NOT having a Taunt.
I'd say Patron Warrior, Miracle Rogue, hell even my Combo Dreadlock have much less requirements for their combos to work. Even tho Paladin is very well suited to stall the game requirements for this combo to work are high enough to let this deck work.
- Other than other murloc decks such as shaman and mill rouge that plays a lot Coldlight Oracles, one or two murlocs can't mess combo that much. Especially if you keep track of the dead murloc cycle. As I said above with four cards you can pull an equal to Force Roar combo.
Patron Warrior and Miracle Rouge had a preparation round previous to the combo round, by playing Emperor Thaurissan and Gadgetzan Auctioneer respectively. That way the opponent knew that he will get comboed next turn and took measures to prevent it. Murloc OTK Pala can prepare for 10 full rounds with nearly no hard counters (going agro is viable to win but technically you kill your opponent before he combos rather than countering the combo itself) and after that (depending on the situation) your are open to OTK.
In my opinion i don't know why it is so hard to see that, having a certain number of cards (not necessarily seven) die by turn 10 and then pick 1 card is less of a requirement, compared to what PW (have certain cards in hand) and MR (play certain cards in specific time and order) required.
Edit: As for Dreadlock the requirements are more or less the same as Murloc OTK Paladin but Dreadlock leans more towards slow control giving the opponent many turns to respond. Plus a simple well placed silence trashes the combo.
- Find exactly 7 specific minions in own deck and have them all die (without transformations or schuffling into deck - looking at you Entomb)
Except you don't. You need play only 5 murlocks, 3/5 are good in control deck (you charge them to trade), 2/5 are okay-ish drop on their mana curve. You don't need to keep them, as in other combo decks.
Secont point: you need 3-4 murlocks when you do your first Anyfin. And again, you gain huge immediate board value, can remove threats reactively. Including taunts you recommend to put against it.
Sure, it's not a silver bullet, it can be countered with a number of ways, it's slow, but it's awesome card. It gives much for a control deck without making it any worse.
you need to have drawn and played 7 specific creatures, they need to be conventionally killed and you need to have drawn Anyfin Can Happen. That's 8 specific cards that need to be drawn and played to bring about a OTK
3-of-each murlocks and two anyfins is enough, total 5 cards and 19 mana preparation.
(2+2*2)*2 = 12 (2+2*2+1*5)*2 = 22 Sums up in 34 damage.
Preparation yields 2 + 2 + (2+2) + (2+2+1*2) = total 14 damage in worst case scenario.
So that's not a OTK. It's just a strong finisher, like FoN/Savage Roar, which is easier to set up and can potentially be done on turn 6. Sorry if that seems like splitting hairs but there's a big distinction between dealing enough damage to kill someone from full health and dealing enough to finish them off. Otherwise you might as well say Moonfire is a OTK on a 1-health opponent. To actually OTK someone from Anyfin... you need to have played a pretty good game.
FoN/Savage Roar is very good two-class-card combo that can be run in any druid deck. Just like Gromash and Death's bite/inner rage/cruel task master for warrior. Both combos have fixed dmg while in the case of paladin it builds up with each passing turn up to one turn full health dmg. To OTK someone with anyfin... you just need to stall and control the board and paladin has great tools for that.
I don't know about MR but I think Patron Warrior was easier to pull off. To get a true OTK from Anyfin... you need to have drawn and played 7 specific creatures, they need to be conventionally killed and you need to have drawn Anyfin Can Happen. That's 8 specific cards that need to be drawn and played to bring about a OTK in a class that doesn't have a heap of draw mechanics. Although some cards were key for Patron Warrior (Grim Patron, Warsong, Berserkers) there were more combinations and activators you could use to deal massive damage. It also varied a lot with board state - I've seen Patron Warrior deal 30+ damage from an empty board and no set-up with just 6 or 7 cards if the opponent has minions in play to activate Frothing Berserker.
I'm not saying the card is weak BTW, I think it's potentially really strong and will see decent decks built around it. I just don't think it's massively OP.
In patron warrior you could provoke an opponents over-play and break the combo. Plus in order to combo you didn't play specific cards, unlike with pala that is able/obligated to play and loose the combo key cards without loosing combo capability.
With the preparation round, marked by the play of Tharusan, you could prepare for PW's combo.* With pala there is no such thing. If play taunt you just stall for a round until the opponent removes it and plays anyfin the next turn.
I agree that the anyfin isn't an op card by itself, however the specific combo of cards leans towards a path already experienced and finally got dealt with by blizz.
*Although, as i said before, people got punished for playing minions, while in the case of paladin you get punished for killing enemy minions
P.S: I'll leave the "moonfire on 1-health OTK" comment speak for itself.
Entomb is not a hard counter by any means. Any good paladin uses the Murlocs to trade for board control. I've entombed both Warleaders and still lost to 2x Old Murk Eyes, 4x Bluegil, 1x grimscale. It's a bogus card that needs to be nerfed. The card should either me made a) Legendary so you can only have 1, or b) Not able to summon the same dead Murloc's twice. So if you only run 7 Murlocs to cheese your way to victory then there's no point to run 2.
Having 25-30hp and board control should not result in a 1 turn KO. I guarantee this card gets nerfed hard, but hopefully it doesn't take them 5 months to do it,
Just finding it interesting that when Blizzard wants the game to be fun and INTERACTIVE they pulled this card out.
Can a player interact with the dead murlocs? No. It's not in some graveyard or some such jazz.
Can a player interact with the card Anyfin Can Happen? No. There is no discard.
Does the murlocs summoned interacts with other minions without taunt? Probably not. If the Murlocdin wants to win, that is.
The card surely requires massive setup to make it work, that's why it is okay. Probably. Then that doesn't explain the "Interactive" argument for nerfing Grim Patron Warriors, right? Can they just come out and say "Hey, this is just too powerful, I will have to restrain you"? Can they be honest for at least once?
Anyway all these new murloc cards seem fun, I must try them when I have some time. If I have some time.
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"Are you not entertained?! ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?!"
"What we do in life, echoes in eternity." - Maximus Decimus Meridius
I tested myself few days ago and the decks works pretty well. I won 4 and I lost 1 and mainly because I didn't play well.
The Paladin class cards are terribly good, so you can survive with them and with all the available healing to prepare the devastating combo. However it is not so nice to play against. I recently play against him with my Control Priest and I knew perfectly how to play him (for instance, I entombed his gold murlock), but still I clearly lost. I had no chance to win but, well, that happens many times against Secret Paladin or Face cancer.
It needs to be fixed frankly - the ability to kill from an empty board should never be possible under any circumstance. It's fine for massive combos from an empty board to exist but you should never be able to get to 30+ damage without at least having some kind of existing board state.
If this game had instants this wouldn't be an issue as you could disrupt the combo as it was being played but the lack of instants force you to "pre-play" against the OTK and as has been said before by Blizzard themselves that doesn't make for interesting play.
Just genuinely curious as to how many of these haters have actually tried the deck. Since a lot of the statements here are not very believable.
Me too. I don't have a massive success rate for the deck myself, although it is viable and admittedly I am missing a few key cards from my collection that would really help a control Paladin deck. I have also hardly encountered anyone else playing with it. I certainly haven't been OTK'd from it and, indeed, don't think I've lost to any of the decks with Anyfin that I've encountered. I'm on the EU server and up to rank 12 so far this season.
It would be interesting for me to know what rank all these people who are getting destroyed by the deck are playing at and how frequently they're seeing it?
I have - it works reasonably well but feels imho weaker than just a normal midrange Paladin overall. That's not the point though - the point is that the ability to kill a full HP player from an empty board is something that time and time again Blizzard has come out against. Here it is again and it will hopefully soon be taken care of as it doesn't make for interesting play.
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I've been moving around rank 15 for now, still haven't met a single one yet. Could it be that they are so high up on the ladder?
Giving the deck a fair loving with a list that is different enough from the 2 in the op. Main notable difference is probably the lack of consecration and the double cult master. It looked like using spells to clear is hugely disadvantageous in that deck so I tried to focus board control solely based on minion combat.
Am currently 7-3 with the deck. I think it has some good matchups but generally inferior to secret or even midrange paladin in my opinion.
The deck can only finish you as early as turn 10 and that is pretty unlikely even. Unlike patron or miracle or even regular midrange paladin you have absolutely no chance of overwhelming your opponent with tempo or burst. Anyfin is the only card that enables you killing your opponent.
With the current lists available I think it's a t3 deck at most.
Polymorph or Hex on Warleader and nofin will happen?! ^^
This deck is very strong. Murloc new meta. I think its a fun deck for sure and very strong but im gona say after a while its going to get annoying when you want to pay control and cant because you get raw doged by this deck.
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.
Thinking bout it further it's different from combo druid which relies on two cards, four cards for double combo, with board control and some face damage to work.
This combo allowed the opponent to let me kill his murlocs, do nothing to my hero, and roll RNG for a win.
To use community words: Vomit your hand then vomit your hand a couple more times with one card doesn't seem fun or interactive to play, much less to play against.
You're punished for letting the murlocs synergize and survive, and you're punished for killing them.
Deck looks fun until you realize Entomb wrecks it.
So is the next nerf going to be to charge (which was cited previously as the problem)? Charge can no longer target the hero (ala Icehowl). Icehowl would have to be changed, but this would solve pretty much all of the OTK issues people have had nerfed over time.
Now it's your turn to bleed!
(2+2*2+1*5)*2 = 22
Sums up in 34 damage.
Entomb is not a hard counter by any means. Any good paladin uses the Murlocs to trade for board control. I've entombed both Warleaders and still lost to 2x Old Murk Eyes, 4x Bluegil, 1x grimscale. It's a bogus card that needs to be nerfed. The card should either me made a) Legendary so you can only have 1, or b) Not able to summon the same dead Murloc's twice. So if you only run 7 Murlocs to cheese your way to victory then there's no point to run 2.
Having 25-30hp and board control should not result in a 1 turn KO. I guarantee this card gets nerfed hard, but hopefully it doesn't take them 5 months to do it,
Just genuinely curious as to how many of these haters have actually tried the deck. Since a lot of the statements here are not very believable.
Just finding it interesting that when Blizzard wants the game to be fun and INTERACTIVE they pulled this card out.
Can a player interact with the dead murlocs? No. It's not in some graveyard or some such jazz.
Can a player interact with the card Anyfin Can Happen? No. There is no discard.
Does the murlocs summoned interacts with other minions without taunt? Probably not. If the Murlocdin wants to win, that is.
The card surely requires massive setup to make it work, that's why it is okay. Probably. Then that doesn't explain the "Interactive" argument for nerfing Grim Patron Warriors, right? Can they just come out and say "Hey, this is just too powerful, I will have to restrain you"? Can they be honest for at least once?
Anyway all these new murloc cards seem fun, I must try them when I have some time. If I have some time.
"Are you not entertained?! ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?!"
"What we do in life, echoes in eternity." - Maximus Decimus Meridius
I tested myself few days ago and the decks works pretty well. I won 4 and I lost 1 and mainly because I didn't play well.
The Paladin class cards are terribly good, so you can survive with them and with all the available healing to prepare the devastating combo. However it is not so nice to play against. I recently play against him with my Control Priest and I knew perfectly how to play him (for instance, I entombed his gold murlock), but still I clearly lost. I had no chance to win but, well, that happens many times against Secret Paladin or Face cancer.
It needs to be fixed frankly - the ability to kill from an empty board should never be possible under any circumstance. It's fine for massive combos from an empty board to exist but you should never be able to get to 30+ damage without at least having some kind of existing board state.
If this game had instants this wouldn't be an issue as you could disrupt the combo as it was being played but the lack of instants force you to "pre-play" against the OTK and as has been said before by Blizzard themselves that doesn't make for interesting play.