Hearthpwn

not sure how this works, but in some cases revenge avoid a 0 mana (dead) minion to survive ...

 *click-click*

Quote from Lilt >>

Quote from ambershee >>

Quote from Nomisbo >>

Quote from ambershee >>

Trust me, I know what I'm talking about - in your particular example, it's caused by an oddity with the order of effects; deathrattle occurs before a minion is destroyed, not after.

What is happening there is as you describe; that the Kodo's battlecry triggers the deathrattle, causing Mirror Entity to come into play, the Mad Scientist is then removed, triggering the secret.

Thinking of it as phases is incorrect, each play does not resolve using phases, Hearthstone resolves plays using a stack, as do many physical card games like MtG ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stack_(abstract_data_type) ) - when you understand this, a whole lot of the weird stuff will start to make much more sense ;)

In the case of this new example:
1. Harrison pushes (adds) one 'Harrison Battlecry event' to the stack.
2. Brann will then push a 'Brann Ability event' onto the stack.
3. As there are no more pending events, 'Brann Ability event' is popped (removed and resolved) from the top of the stack. This ability copies the 'Harrison Battlecry event and pushes the copy onto the stack.
4. The copy of the 'Harrison Battlecry event' is popped and resolved - a 'Draw X cards event' is pushed onto the stack, followed by a 'Destroy Enemy Weapon event'.
5. The 'Destroy Weapon event' is popped - note that in the case of a weapon like Death's Bite, this would push a deathrattle event, which in turn when popped could activate minions and push even more events onto the stack. This could kill something like Tirion and give your opponent a new weapon (but this situation would currently be incredibly rare given these are Warrior and Paladin class cards respectively).
6. The 'Draw X cards event' is popped, drawing you the cards equal to the value of the weapons durability.
7. The original 'Harrison Battlecry event' is now popped and resolved. Since the enemy no longer has a weapon, it fizzles and does nothing - however, if in step 5, the player *did* receive a new weapon by doing something like killing Tirion, then once again a 'Draw X cards' event is added to the stack, followed by a 'Destroy Enemy Weapon event' - then they are popped in the same order, once again also potentially causing more things to activate and get pushed onto the stack.


Understanding these interactions will go a long way to helping you understand the effects card combinations will produce.

 Ok, thank you very much for the nice explanation! Playing MtG for ages, I'm familiar with the stack concept and can follow your detailled analysis of Bran Bronzebeard + Harrison Jones. I was never sure if Hearthstone uses the same/similar stack mechanic. There are some points which often confuse me. F.e. minions being targetable inbetween being played and entering the battlefield due to battlecry effect or deathrattle healing minions which are already on 0 health ...

Do you know a comprehensive rulebook or something similar. The advanced rulebook here on hearthpwn isn't very clear arranged.

But I really look forward to play Bran Bronzebeard + Harrison Jones to destroy a deathbite, which destroys my opponents Tirion Fordring and the second battlecry of Harrison destroys Ashbringer [/card]. It could be possible if my opponent is a priest and I'm a Paladin and one of us played [card]Blingtron 3000 ... indeed a rare scenario I suppose ;)

 I haven't seen a rulebook and haven't actually looked at the one on here either to be honest.

Regarding battlecry and deathrattle - battlecry is triggered before the minion enters the board and deathrattle is triggered before the minion is removed from play. A battlecry minion that has not resolved it's battlecry cannot be affected by other triggered effects as a result as it has not yet entered play, a deathrattle minion can theoretically be affected by ongoing event activations whilst the deathrattle is resolving because it hasn't yet left play (the reality is, I believe, that no card or combination allows this to actually happen, but if Frothing Berserker had a deathrattle, it would continue to gain attack before the deathrattle is played out) - note that because it's health is already zero it won't be a valid target for damage dealing effects or healing effects that choose a target (even if it is random) - board wide AoE effects will still work.

The battlecry example is best seen by playing Dr. Boom into a board where you already have one minion and your opponent has Sacred Trial in play; since Dr Boom's battlecry spawns the bots before he enters play, Dr Boom is the fourth minion and is destroyed accordingly.

As for healing, I'm unsure of the reference for the question, off the top of my head I cannot think of any healing effects that should be able to prevent the death of a minion (and I suspect this is a deliberate design decision). The example that would get funky would be something like a deathrattle that heals your board, because it could theoretically heal another minion whose deathrattle instigated the death of the healer minion.

Advanced rulebook is your friend.

1. Hearthstone doesn't use stacks, much to the chagrin of many people.

2. Death occurs before deathrattle.
ex) Feugen and Stalagg dying simultaneously summons 2 Thaddius.

3. Battlecry happens after minion is summoned.
ex) Using Ironbeak Owl's Battlecry to silence Starving Buzzard draws you a card first, then silences it.

Quote from FryChikN >>

 battlecry happens after the minion is summoned, yet his example is spot on. that would kill your boom, and not a boom bot.

I'm surprised no one mentioned this one:

Turn 7 Brann Bronzebeard and Kezan Mystic. As someone else stated in another thread, I can't imagine why you'd want to steal two secrets on Turn 7.....

SHIELDS UP, RED ALERT!

Injured Blademaster synergy! PogChamp

Quote from ambershee >>

Demonstrating both of your examples as stacks:

Feugan and Stalagg simultaneous death:
1) Feugan and Stalagg's deathrattle events are pushed onto the stack.
2) Assuming Feugen went first, his deathrattle event pops. Stalagg's death event exists, so a summon Thaddius event is pushed onto the stack and Feugan is removed from play.
3) The summon Thaddius event is popped and Thaddius is summoned, entering play.
4) Stalagg's deathrattle event pops. Feugan's death event exists, so a summon Thaddius event is pushed onto the stack and Stalagg is removed from play.
5) The summon Thaddius event is popped and Thaddius is summoned, entering play.

Ironbreak Owl and Starving Buzzard:
1) A summon Ironbeak Owl event is pushed onto the stack, activating Starving Buzzard and adding a draw card event to the stack.
2) The draw card event is popped, drawing a card.
3) The summon Ironbreak Owl event is popped, pushing a silence event onto the stack.
4) The silence event silences the Buzzard.
5) Ironbeak Owl enters play.


Edit: If the game indeed used a queue and battlecries happened after a minion was summoned, like the advanced rulebook suggests, then the example with Dr Boom would lead to a boom bot being destroyed.

I like him in Shaman

Quote from ambershee >>

Quote from Lilt >>

Quote from ambershee >>

Demonstrating both of your examples as stacks:

Feugan and Stalagg simultaneous death:
1) Feugan and Stalagg's deathrattle events are pushed onto the stack.
2) Assuming Feugen went first, his deathrattle event pops. Stalagg's death event exists, so a summon Thaddius event is pushed onto the stack and Feugan is removed from play.
3) The summon Thaddius event is popped and Thaddius is summoned, entering play.
4) Stalagg's deathrattle event pops. Feugan's death event exists, so a summon Thaddius event is pushed onto the stack and Stalagg is removed from play.
5) The summon Thaddius event is popped and Thaddius is summoned, entering play.

Ironbreak Owl and Starving Buzzard:
1) A summon Ironbeak Owl event is pushed onto the stack, activating Starving Buzzard and adding a draw card event to the stack.
2) The draw card event is popped, drawing a card.
3) The summon Ironbreak Owl event is popped, pushing a silence event onto the stack.
4) The silence event silences the Buzzard.
5) Ironbeak Owl enters play.


Edit: If the game indeed used a queue and battlecries happened after a minion was summoned, like the advanced rulebook suggests, then the example with Dr Boom would lead to a boom bot being destroyed.

Feugan and Stalagg's death event does not exist if they are not dead beforehand.

The way you described Ironbeak Owl and Starving Buzzard is not consistent with Injured Blademaster's battlecry.
1) Summon Injured Blademaster event is popped, pushing a damage Injured Blademaster event onto the stack.
2) Injured Blademaster is not in play, so can't damage it.
3) Injured Blademaster enters play as 4/7?

Example with Dr. Boom would not lead to boom bot getting destroyed. Here's how it goes:

1. Dr. Boom enters play
2. Battlecry Phase: Summon Boom bots
3. Secret Activation Phase: Check if # of minions on board > 3 → Yes, kill the minion being played (Dr. Boom)

Feugen and Stalagg's death event exists; even if it has yet to be popped and resolved, and they have yet to be removed, it is still in the stack. This is why the check succeeds; it checks both the current stack and play history.

Injured Blademaster and Injured Kvaldir resolve their battlecries before they enter play.
1) Summon Injured Blademaster event is pushed, it's battlecry event is pushed.
2) The battlecry is resolved (note that Blademaster might not be in play yet, but it still exists. There is nothing to suggest that a minion that is not yet in play cannot be damaged by effects that target it, in the same way that minions that have not been played can still be buffed (Mistcaller, Bolvar Fordragon)
3) Blademaster enters play as a damaged 4/7 (4/3)

It's important to note that what you see happening on the client is not necessarily happening on the server, it can do things in different orders.

Quote from ambershee >>

Quote from Lilt >>

That was my point. Death occurs before Deathrattle " even if it has yet to be popped and resolved, and they have yet to be removed"

OK what about using Elven Archer battlecry on Explosive Sheep. Clearly "All minions" wouldn't include yet to be played Elven Archer? Or Fire Elemental on Sylvanas Windrunner with 3 health. Sylvanas' Deathrattle would get pushed into the stack before minion is played.

The death event exists and that is enough. They're not necessarily dead and removed from play, but the event already exists in the stack so the check to see if the event exists still resolves as true - so that isn't your point at all.

Elven Archer targeting Explosive Sheep works because the damage effect resolves against all minions - the minion is not on the board yet but the object itself has been created and it still exists under the control of the player which allows it to be hit by AoE. Same deal with Sylvannas Windrunner's deathrattle.

Like efficient  battlecries minions weren't use before. Nope.

Quote from Tenshi13 >>

Quote from SirenSetMeFree >>

Shaman might have a viable deck. 

 That's what they say EVERY expansion LOL

Quote from Tenshi13 >>

Quote from SirenSetMeFree >>

Shaman might have a viable deck. 

 That's what they say EVERY expansion LOL

after playing around with the card, my conclusion is that it is alright but not game changing... building a deck around it is not viable because he is a one of, and you'll only get to have on average one round of battlecry enhancers before he dies: the turn he's played... which means you're incentivized to play it with 5+ mana. and since you're not building a deck around it, you'll rarely have a dream hand that gives a huge tempo swing. assuming that the meta continues to be fast, it will be too little too late. assuming the meta slows down, opponents will typically have more silence/hard removal in their hand to stop the more powerful cards in their tracks.

Think about this combo turn 6 MCT and brann, just flip the board on an aggro player.

Also don't forget you can get brann from jeweled scarab yet another reason to run him. Theoretically you could get 3 branns if you did brann scarab and got 2 branns via rng xD

Quote from mbusc1 >>

Think about this combo turn 6 MCT and brann, just flip the board on an aggro player.

Also don't forget you can get brann from jeweled scarab yet another reason to run him. Theoretically you could get 3 branns if you did brann scarab and got 2 branns via rng xD

 

I will play him simply because i already use battlecry minions primarily for their battlecry effect and not for their impressive body. If i didnt, id be running Pit Fighter's all day long. If Brann improves one or two of those battlecries, AND draws out removal or forces a trade, im in a pretty good spot.

Edit: Building a battlecry deck based on Brann i feel is very optimistic, but maybe shaman can do it. Maybe.

Edit 2: Just a thought but Ancient Mage + Brann almost equals a Malygos.

Quote from xRaimon >>

After reading 5 pages of gimmick ideas the only combo that it MAY see any play in competitive is Brann+Healbot in handlock or in freeze mage (with emperor) and I still doubt it. 

Pros always talk about consistency because this game has very high RNG, healing to full hp always with a Reno deck is consistent (and a decent 4/6 body too), having to find 2 or 3 exact cards in the whole deck to then have to play 3+X will be hardly consistent and dropping a 2/4 body on turn 5/6+ it's very bad anyway.

Quote from Weedguy >>

Quote from xRaimon >>

After reading 5 pages of gimmick ideas the only combo that it MAY see any play in competitive is Brann+Healbot in handlock or in freeze mage (with emperor) and I still doubt it. 

Pros always talk about consistency because this game has very high RNG, healing to full hp always with a Reno deck is consistent (and a decent 4/6 body too), having to find 2 or 3 exact cards in the whole deck to then have to play 3+X will be hardly consistent and dropping a 2/4 body on turn 5/6+ it's very bad anyway.

 you can't heal to full HP always with a Reno Deck. You cannot guarantee drawing Reno. You cannot guarantee that healing to 30 will even do its job if you are drawing into your early game curve, when its actually late game. a Reno, a haunted creeper, a jouster, and a muster, as a series of late game draws? Is useless and will lose you the game, guaranteed.

Can Justicar Trueheart Battlecry Occur Twice With Brann Bronzebeard ? If it does since it is a battlecry. I wonder What our Hero Power will be