Hearthpwn

Yeah with online they can tweak and make changes when needed.  If something needs to be toned down then they could do a slight nerf.  If that fails, nerf harder, if that fails, nerf still harder.  Blizzard's balance changes have been incredibly lazy.   With their MOBA they release patches all the time and make slight adjustments.  With Hearthstone they don't care and just kill cards, or do stupid shit like release Evil Heckler and Ice Rager.  

Quote from TheSithCode >>

"In the case of Warsong Commander, we felt this change was necessary to help expand both future design space and to stand by our overarching game philosophy that battles between minions and fighting for board control is what makes Hearthstone fun and compelling."

Emphasis mine.

You don't know what they have planned for the future. Seeing Patron die is unfortunate, but we currently have no idea what avenues are open to them as developers now that Warsong has been changed.

"Future design space" = "another warsong commander in 2 expansion". if u havent seen the video on warsong nerf in reddit you should totally check it out XD

And then what would counter Dragon Priests and Midrange Paladin? The reason why these two decks don't overrule the game is because Patron serves as a solution against these two. Secondly, Patron Warrior serves a cheap and decent competitive deck for players. Third, the existence of patron warrior makes some deck still playable.

Dragon Priest actually does well against Patron.  Tempo tends to put a lot of pressure on combo decks early on, not giving them the room they need to pull their combo.  Thus unless thye have a God Draw of removal into combo, they tend to fall apart.  Dragon Priest dies more against control metas.  

Some midrange paladins have taken on a more tempo feel to give them the same benefit.  That version is a very new deck and still being processed.  Old style midrange didn't get stopped by Patron: it got stopped by EVERYTHING.

Patron WAS one of the cheaper decks, though. Though that still means 3 months of bilding up due to the need for Adventure cards and the use of Brawl and/or shield slam in later versions.  

I'm not afraid of the possible change in the meta. I'm reacting to the very act of killing the deck without thinking of the possible repercussions of such acts. I'm not upset on the agro in the meta. I'm actually glad that my Midrange Paladin and Zoo can get back in the game. My problem is that by removing the unique card text of Warsong Commander, they killed the card and the possibilities that the card could contribute in the future just like how Nat Pagle and Starving Buzzard entered seinsvergessenheit.

If you listen to Bed Brode, it's that future which was causing the problem.  For example, dreadsteed was meant to be a Naxx neutral until they realized how warsong would cause it to break the game.  It sounded like that wasn't the only example.  Turns out Warsong commander was holding back future contributions rather than adding anything.  THAT is why they targetted it.  

Quote from thepoxbox >>

Quote from Timeiscandy >>

The only time WotC has made changes quickly are when they've made incredibly spectacular failures, such as in Urza block or with Affinity. Those changes had to happen immediately because the percentage of people playing with the cards was insane. Like 70%+ of tournament attendees insane (you could make the same argument for some decks in Hearthstone tournaments but it's a little different since MtG tournaments only allow you one deck). The most recent example of emergency bannings were with Jace the Mind Sculptor and Stoneforge Mystic and those had both been around for a year already at that point. The deck they were broken in existed for about 4 months before they were banned anyway, so it wasn't like it was a super fast response.

The argument that because this is an online CCG they should make changes more often and more quickly has never made that much sense to me. The more often they make changes the more often people will expect them to make changes in the future. Every time any deck or card becomes good everyone will just scream for a nerf. I mean, they do that now, but it would likely get much worse since people would actually expect it to happen whereas now people don't really expect fast nerfs. 

Hearthstone is just 2 years old, it took MTG like.. what..10 years to stop screwing up?
So. Yeah. 

Also you don't understand the argument that you can make changes online? What? If you ban a card in MTG it's value suddenly drops from 30$ to 5$. You just cost your players potentially hundreds of dollars and royally pissed them off. 

I don't see the slow nerf plan working in curbing complaints. Yes likely there will always be about the same number of complaints no matter what. 
So then we just get faster meta shifts, which, for an online game, is just awesome. No money has to be spent by the player base and no new cards have to come out and the meta changes potentially significantly? Sweet deal for everyone. 

Well MtG is over twenty years old now and they're still messing up so I dunno how long it's supposed to take to learn the balance lesson but I imagine it's an ongoing process. I'm not saying that the Hearthstone team necessarily does a better job with balance, though given the game mechanics it's hard to make interactions as broken as some of the things you can do in MtG.

That part I understand. What I don't understand is why everyone thinks that just because they can make changes quickly they should. Like, I understand that people want to see the cards they don't like playing against go away, but if you don't establish some threshold for how broken something has to be to get a change then everyone is just going to expect you to make changes all the time. Like I said, right now people whine about cards but they don't really expect Blizzard to do much about it. If they made changes all the time then people would have a legitimate reason to think that their complaints would be heard. Obviously we can't actually test this so either of us could be right, but my expectation would be that the more Blizzard actually makes changes the more people will expect and ask for them. 

I mean, yeah it's not bad in a world where everyone has all the cards and can constantly jump to a different deck depending on the meta, but I'm pretty sure that's not this world. To go back to the MtG example you used, it's one of the reasons WotC doesn't like to make bans. You devalue someone's collection and disincentivize them from putting time or money into the game to build a good deck. If it's going to change at any minute, why bother? Hearthstone cards might not have the same monetary value as MtG cards, but for a lot of players the time that went into getting a certain deck is a real cost. 

Quote from Arkarion >>

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Let me say 2 words to your "we don't want OTK decks) post: 

Combo Druid

Combo druid isn't an actual combo deck... It does 14 damage at best, they have to actually get there. Patron just drew cards until they win.

Thaurissan ... and it's ridiculous that you have to empty the druids board every single turn or u loose. No other class can do that and it ruins the fun honestly.

One turn on the board and Force + 2x Savage is no problem at all and that's just fckin broken and boring

Combo druid is arguably a hybrid between midrange and Combo.  It DOES have a move that's a game killer, but they don't tend to hunt like crazy for the combo.  However, it doesnt' really work like a midrange deck as it MUST have something of those combo peices to work.  

What it is is a deck that has a combo, but can easily make substitutes or bolster other cards with it to make stronger plays.  Even still, if you stop it's turn 4-7s but didn't keep your health up, you die.  But if it has a strong midgame but no FoN/SR in hand, it can't kill you.  Midrange LOVES double KC, but it doesn't need it make a kill if it's minions can tear you down anyway.  Note that Combo decks CAN have alternative win conditions if the combo fails to develop.

Sort of lilke how Mech mage is considered aggro, with a turn 7 Big Boy as a finisher.  It's aggro because it's mostly reliant on that early game push, but has a fall back plan if they need just a little more fuel.  Or how Handlock is Combo despite turn 4 giants because those tend to not be it's finishing move (unlike, say, fel reaver in Mech shaman)

Quote from Arkarion >>

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Let me say 2 words to your "we don't want OTK decks) post: 

Combo Druid

Combo druid isn't an actual combo deck... It does 14 damage at best, they have to actually get there. Patron just drew cards until they win.

Thaurissan ... and it's ridiculous that you have to empty the druids board every single turn or u loose. No other class can do that and it ruins the fun honestly.

One turn on the board and Force + 2x Savage is no problem at all and that's just fckin broken and boring

Oil Rogue and Arcane Golem.  Mage with 2 fireballs.  There are a ton of ways to do this, you just suck.

Is this really a thread?

Ben Brode and the others on Team 5 are doing their best to make a fun, enjoyable, balanced game. Believe it or not, they're the ONLY team on the planet making a grossly successful online CCG, so it's going to take a while to fine-tune everything (a big part of why there weren't really any Dr. Boom-level cards in TGT).

They're learning how to make the game just as much as we're learning to play it. They're going to make mistakes, and that's ok.

Let he who has never missed lethal cast the first stone :)

All Blizzard care about is money,which is the main reason i stopped playing this game.

Undertaker was only fixed when Goblin vs Gnomes was released,they knew the card was broken but fixing it while Naxx was the newest expansion would have affected sales by making one of the card you can get worthless.

Warsong Commander was the same thing,fixing it while Blackrock Mountain was the newest expansion would have killed sales since it kills Grim Patron.

Not only that but they have showed again and again that they have zero creativity and always end up killing cards instead of fixing them.

people wants nerf and the deck after it should be still playable .

Brode video have no sense - they dont make dreadsteed neutral because of warsong but create a patron - wtf . Hope Ben Brode will be fired ,so many failes ))

Quote from Ace1a >>

Quote from Timeiscandy >>

Quote from Ace1a >>

Calm down and stop defending this broken deck. You hated that deck a month ago so be glad it's going bye. No, dragon priest still lost 70% of the time to it. Only handlock and control Warrior managed to lose slightly less than 50% of the time. I agree divine favor is OP and unfairly punishes slower decks. MC is OP but blizzard is working on a proper counter to secrets, perhaps a minion with flare battlecry? Boom hopefully is next to be nerfed as he restricts design space. Tirion is also OP, but weak to silence. I lost more games to Patron than any other class so there.

 

I'm not sure I understand how Dr. Boom restricts design space. Would you care to clarify?

Post in the Boom thread and ill explain more. But the comparison between OP cards remains valid, they all restrict design space by keeping the meta stale and preventing other cards from seeing play.

bro, you got it backwards, its BGH that restricts design space and why 7+attack cards have to be borderline broken to be playable at all...

Quote from Spice_Weasel >>

At this point I am seriously finding myself wishing that someone who had a remotely decent vision for the direction of Hearthstone would take over.

Between saying that adding RNG adds skill to the game and the absolutely pathetic job the Blizzard team has done with card fixing, I am really losing my drive to play this game. I have put in so much time, multiple seasons of Legend and 6/9 heroes at Gold, over 5000 wins in Ranked alone. But good fucking god, pay attention to what is actually going on.

A month ago I would have been on the "nerf Patron into oblivion" crowd. I hated that deck more than anything. I still think it's dumb. But the deck was no longer an issue on ladder. Dragon priest wrecks it, for instance. Meanwhile, Paladin has about 4 Tier 1 decks, and you can't mulligan against Pally anymore because you have no idea which of the equally viable and overpowered versions you are playing against. On top of having a card so broken in aggro it's not even funny (Divine Favor for those who have a hard time following, aggro should NEVER have OP card draw because it's the only thing keeping decks like that in check), they also have the most mindless and overpowered piece of shit that has ever hit this game (Mysterious Challenger). And clearly one of the best legends in the game (Tirion). The universal consensus is that MC into Dr. Boom into Tirion is completely unbeatable by any class, and that happens a decent amount of games.

So what's the solution? Let's nerf Warsong into oblivion and completely eliminate an archetype. Let's not fix this one card and keep a deck in the spotlight but much more reasonable (Berserker was the real problem card in the deck with Warsong anyways), let's not say "Your minions with 3 or less attack have charge," let's just say fuck this and make ladder go from 80% Paladin to 90% Paladin. Good fucking god.

I get that it helps the tournament scene, which became "Patron, deck that counters Patron, deck that counters deck that counter Patron." But ladder is continually becoming more and more Paladin dominant, and most classes just don't have the early game tools to deal with Paladin. And if they do, then they lose ground midgame to insane cards like Quartermaster, Murloc Knight, and MC. Oh you survived ALL of those threats? K cool here's Tirion, and then Lay on Hands to refuel while you are running out of resources dealing with all my bullshit. Ladder is becoming a fucking twisted nightmare of Paladin, and unlike decks in the past that were dominant, there are NO hard counters to Paladin.

Can someone who actually plays the game seriously be put in charge of development? Patron is VERY clearly not the monster it was pre-TGT, so why the fuck wait to nerf it until it ISN'T a problem? Good fucking god.

While your points are valid I can't help feeling and saying:

EVERYONE GET THE FUCK OUT!

Now that the complete trash warsong commander is gone they can focus on Mysterious Challenger which is equally a fucked up card. Warsong had so many problems to go with it. Your solution "your minions with 3 or less attack have charge" was about as dumb as it gets.

That still means they have to pay attention to every single fucking 3 attack or less neutral minion in the game that they might want to add a cool mechanic to. Now they put that focus to rest and only focus on the charged minions for warsong.

We should start a tear collector for all of these threads.

Quote from Arkarion >>

Quote from Meeow >>

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Quote from Dalinos >>

 

Let me say 2 words to your "we don't want OTK decks) post: 

Combo Druid

Combo druid isn't an actual combo deck... It does 14 damage at best, they have to actually get there. Patron just drew cards until they win.

Thaurissan ... and it's ridiculous that you have to empty the druids board every single turn or u loose. No other class can do that and it ruins the fun honestly.

One turn on the board and Force + 2x Savage is no problem at all and that's just fckin broken and boring

Not only that but FoN + x2 Roar is 22 damage in 1 turn from an empty board. Druids already have sturdy taunt minions + the choose one mechanic gives them flexibility, while other classes have to include extra cards to cover all techs. At least in the past they needed innervate to play this combo but now with Thaurissan they can do everything in one turn with these cards and more...

Quote from Human_Guy >>

If Ben Brode really is going the route of "limits desgin space" on warsong comander, what about Emperor? Emperor has way more limiting effects than war song since its neutral.

Remember malyagos? Unplayable since it needed to survive one turn. Now you can just emporer it and 2x dark bomb + soulfire for otk.

2x Savage roar anyone? How about Infinte damage archmage + 4 sorceress. 

And you know why this is a problem that will never go away? <insert lack of counter here>
Card games need counters to everything, yet hearthstone has very little. We need counter to charge, spells, stealth, freeze on heroes, card draw etc.
Pretty much everything definsive has a counter (aoe = deathrattle, taunt = silence, black knight, Big minions = bgh) Yet counter to simple damage are apparently too much to ask from an developer like blizzard.

 

You want to give every class an Ice Block?

As lifecoach pointed out:

All eu qualifiers have patron, druid and handlock as their decks. Patron has died. Handlock was mainly brought for handlock, so there is no point as handlock is a subpar deck. Druid does good versus patron and handlock, so it's strength is diminished (but still good enough).

As a result, 2 decks out of 3 need to be changed for those players. So they will need to practice with 2 decks and consider matchups etc.

AND THIS NERF HAPPENED JUST A WEEK BEFORE BLIZZCON!

good job blizzard lol. Fucking up their own tournament. This can be either atrributed to malice or incompetence. I would go with incompetence. If the sunk cost fallacy didn't prevent me, I would leave up this game in an instant. I think many players here are in a similar spot. I have not spent any money on the game, but a lot of time (so I have a very large collection) I will try to find ways to sell my account to be honest. This game is becoming worse and worse.

You missed the point. Nerf grim patron 1-2 months before blizzcon, it's ok. Nerf it after blizzcon, it's ok. Nerf it exactly 1 week before blizzcon (in an environment everyone picks up and practices decks based on grim patron dominant meta), you fuck your players. It is just unprofessional.

I hate gpw as much as you do, and I also agree it is better to see a tournament without it. The timing is the incompetent part of it. (also the fact that they waited 6 months and after they created the cancer shit called mysterious shit)

Welcome to the Internet. People doesn't know what they want. They simply want some attention... 

To be fair, Patron IS what prompted her nerfing, even if the final decision was for the long term.

I do agree though (and I've never really understood the "how this makes them money" logic) even if Ben Brode is probably used to it at this point.

I think the point that the card limited future card designs is the perfect counter to the people saying the nerf wasn't necessary. I believe the nerf of Warsong Commander over any of the other cards (Grim Patron, etc.) was the perfect move for the future of the game.