Hearthpwn

Lol the real problem with nerfing either Patron or MC is that if you nerf one, the other one will become the "best and unbeatable deck". So they should've nerf both Patron and MC pally.

Quote from Arkarion >>

Quote from Dalinos >>

Finally! It's about time Warsong Commander was nerfed.

The only reason I'm happy for the nerf is the following: Blizzard is showing consistency. Months (maybe a year?) ago, when Miracle Rogue's tools were nerfed to oblviion (6 mana Auctioneer and 5 mana Leeroy), Blizzard gave a clear and well-thought-out explanation. They did not like it when certain decks killed you in 1 turn. Simple as that. And let's be fair, is it fun? You're sitting in hand with all the removal you might need to counter that OTK combo, yet you can't do shit cause Hearthstone doesn't allow instant-speed casts like MTG Instants and Yugioh Trap Cards. I remember laddering with my Druid deck back in the day, I may have had Swipes in hand but I could not use them on that pesky Leeroy. And I died. From 28 HP. With my Taunts getting prep-sapped. 

Whenever my friends asked me "Hey Dal, whatcha think about Patron Warrior?" that's always the answer I gave them. Yes, it CAN be played around (by certain classes) so you don't get swarmed by the Patrons, but the problem was the OTK kill Frothing Berserker could offer. It was not logical for Blizz to nerf one OTK combo deck such as Miracle Rogue and not the other OTK combo which was Patron Warr. 

Also, the other OTK combo deck (Freeze Mage) actually needs some setup to pull off, so it's fine. (I do remember seeing a mage do the following though: Sorceror's Apprentice, Sorceror's Apprentice, Ancient Mage in between. 8 mana used, 2 spellpower on board. Frostbolt x2 for 0 mana and 10 dmg, Icelance x2 for 0 mana and 12 dmg, and Fireball for 2 mana for the remaining 8 dmg).

Let me say 2 words to your "we don't want OTK decks) post: 

Combo Druid

Combo druid isn't an actual combo deck... It does 14 damage at best, they have to actually get there. Patron just drew cards until they win.

Quote from mrluckypants >>

Quote from Yololi002 >>

Lol the real problem with nerfing either Patron or MC is that if you nerf one, the other one will become the "best and unbeatable deck". So they should've nerf both Patron and MC pally.

just give it another 6 to 12 months.

Those are apples and oranges. Why in the world are people comparing single strong cards that are just played but don't deal 50 damage in one turn comparable to the main issue that was caused by Warsong? People drop a 8 damage minion on turn 6 with a bunch of secrets. Literally, deal with it. You have the tools. If you can't figure out how, then probably play Solitaire.

Strong cards =/= Toxic card design

In  the new Video, Ben Brode talks about how charge and direct damage are not fun to play against, and and yet hunter remains as an almost only face class. Hunter will never be anything besides super aggro or midrange aggro while the hero power remains unchanged. they get cards almost every expansion that encourage face/or aggro decks. Quickshot, brave archer, corehound.. etc, and the cards that dont encourage aggro are pretty much garbage. they release these cards hoping it will the change the hunter meta, but it never will while charge is so powerful and the hero power only encourages aggressive decks.

change the hero power to deal 2 damage to a random enemy character, steemweedle sniper to, hero power can be targeted. buzzard back to original stats (2/1) when you play a beast draw a card.

this next thought is just my opinion and i would like to know what other people think.

Silence needs to be more expensive. how many control or midrange decks run a silence card/minion to establish or retain board control. none. silence is only used in an aggressive manner.

Dealing with either Tirion, MurlocKnight, MC and Dr. 7 can be harrowing. Dealing with all of them in one game can be incredibly difficult, but not impossible.

Whoever said freeze mage counter was damn right. Been playing pally's all day running freeze mage, most of them played the above cards and still ended up losing. 

Divine Favor is an auto-include in most paladin decks and when you play around it, it literally becomes a dead card in their hand, one they cannot even draw 1 measly card off of. 

The reason people are so fucking pissed off about the patron nerf is because patron allowed a condition to exist where you no longer had to play around aggro decks at all. You could just do your own thing and it literally, like LITERALLY did not matter what the aggro decks did, because either way they would play right into the strategy. What we are left with post GP nerf is the removal of that condition and a bunch of spoiled card players (GP PLAYERS) who have forgotten how to play around an aggro deck, because they have just been brainlessly playing patron with reckless abandon against aggro with great results.

Face it; Grim patron spoiled you. It made you weak and complacent. Patron allowed the game to go without aggro for a time, but guess what bitch, its back and your gonna have to learn how to play around it all over again. And no, you did not have to be a GP player to reap the benefits, it heavily impacted the meta.

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Quote from DatJake >>

Dealing with either Tirion, MurlocKnight, MC and Dr. 7 can be harrowing. Dealing with all of them in one game can be incredibly difficult, but not impossible.

Whoever said freeze mage counter was damn right. Been playing pally's all day running freeze mage, most of them played the above cards and still ended up losing. 

Divine Favor is an auto-include in most paladin decks and when you play around it, it literally becomes a dead card in their hand, one they cannot even draw 1 measly card off of. 

The reason people are so fucking pissed off about the patron nerf is because patron allowed a condition to exist where you no longer had to play around aggro decks at all. You could just do your own thing and it literally, like LITERALLY did not matter what the aggro decks did, because either way they would play right into the strategy. What we are left with post GP nerf is the removal of that condition and a bunch of spoiled card players (GP PLAYERS) who have forgotten how to play around an aggro deck, because they have just been brainlessly playing patron with reckless abandon against aggro with great results.

Face it; Grim patron spoiled you. It made you weak and complacent. Patron allowed the game to go without aggro for a time, but guess what bitch, its back and your gonna have to learn how to play around it all over again. And no, you did not have to be a GP player to reap the benefits, it heavily impacted the meta.

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you're joking right? aggro has been the dominant percent of decks players since beta. Ill agree Grim Patron was overpowered and that it needed a nerf, but not to point where it was an automatic win and have to be destroyed. let me ask, have you ever played Patron Warrior?

People are mad because a non linear deck that required skill to win against at minimum decent players was destroyed. a deck you rarely even saw on ladder after tgt released because people who weren't good enough realized they couldn't win consistently enough with it, so they went back to aggro decks.

Quote from Spice_Weasel >>

At this point I am seriously finding myself wishing that someone who had a remotely decent vision for the direction of Hearthstone would take over.

Between saying that adding RNG adds skill to the game and the absolutely pathetic job the Blizzard team has done with card fixing, I am really losing my drive to play this game. I have put in so much time, multiple seasons of Legend and 6/9 heroes at Gold, over 5000 wins in Ranked alone. But good fucking god, pay attention to what is actually going on.

A month ago I would have been on the "nerf Patron into oblivion" crowd. I hated that deck more than anything. I still think it's dumb. But the deck was no longer an issue on ladder. Dragon priest wrecks it, for instance. Meanwhile, Paladin has about 4 Tier 1 decks, and you can't mulligan against Pally anymore because you have no idea which of the equally viable and overpowered versions you are playing against. On top of having a card so broken in aggro it's not even funny (Divine Favor for those who have a hard time following, aggro should NEVER have OP card draw because it's the only thing keeping decks like that in check), they also have the most mindless and overpowered piece of shit that has ever hit this game (Mysterious Challenger). And clearly one of the best legends in the game (Tirion). The universal consensus is that MC into Dr. Boom into Tirion is completely unbeatable by any class, and that happens a decent amount of games.

So what's the solution? Let's nerf Warsong into oblivion and completely eliminate an archetype. Let's not fix this one card and keep a deck in the spotlight but much more reasonable (Berserker was the real problem card in the deck with Warsong anyways), let's not say "Your minions with 3 or less attack have charge," let's just say fuck this and make ladder go from 80% Paladin to 90% Paladin. Good fucking god.

I get that it helps the tournament scene, which became "Patron, deck that counters Patron, deck that counters deck that counter Patron." But ladder is continually becoming more and more Paladin dominant, and most classes just don't have the early game tools to deal with Paladin. And if they do, then they lose ground midgame to insane cards like Quartermaster, Murloc Knight, and MC. Oh you survived ALL of those threats? K cool here's Tirion, and then Lay on Hands to refuel while you are running out of resources dealing with all my bullshit. Ladder is becoming a fucking twisted nightmare of Paladin, and unlike decks in the past that were dominant, there are NO hard counters to Paladin.

Can someone who actually plays the game seriously be put in charge of development? Patron is VERY clearly not the monster it was pre-TGT, so why the fuck wait to nerf it until it ISN'T a problem? Good fucking god.

Calm down and stop defending this broken deck. You hated that deck a month ago so be glad it's going bye. No, dragon priest still lost 70% of the time to it. Only handlock and control Warrior managed to lose slightly less than 50% of the time. I agree divine favor is OP and unfairly punishes slower decks. MC is OP but blizzard is working on a proper counter to secrets, perhaps a minion with flare battlecry? Boom hopefully is next to be nerfed as he restricts design space. Tirion is also OP, but weak to silence. I lost more games to Patron than any other class so there.

Quote from Ace1a >>

Calm down and stop defending this broken deck. You hated that deck a month ago so be glad it's going bye. No, dragon priest still lost 70% of the time to it. Only handlock and control Warrior managed to lose slightly less than 50% of the time. I agree divine favor is OP and unfairly punishes slower decks. MC is OP but blizzard is working on a proper counter to secrets, perhaps a minion with flare battlecry? Boom hopefully is next to be nerfed as he restricts design space. Tirion is also OP, but weak to silence. I lost more games to Patron than any other class so there.

 

I'm not sure I understand how Dr. Boom restricts design space. Would you care to clarify?

Quote from YouCantFreezingTrapChuckNorris >>

Quote from DatJake >>

Dealing with either Tirion, MurlocKnight, MC and Dr. 7 can be harrowing. Dealing with all of them in one game can be incredibly difficult, but not impossible.

Whoever said freeze mage counter was damn right. Been playing pally's all day running freeze mage, most of them played the above cards and still ended up losing. 

Divine Favor is an auto-include in most paladin decks and when you play around it, it literally becomes a dead card in their hand, one they cannot even draw 1 measly card off of. 

The reason people are so fucking pissed off about the patron nerf is because patron allowed a condition to exist where you no longer had to play around aggro decks at all. You could just do your own thing and it literally, like LITERALLY did not matter what the aggro decks did, because either way they would play right into the strategy. What we are left with post GP nerf is the removal of that condition and a bunch of spoiled card players (GP PLAYERS) who have forgotten how to play around an aggro deck, because they have just been brainlessly playing patron with reckless abandon against aggro with great results.

Face it; Grim patron spoiled you. It made you weak and complacent. Patron allowed the game to go without aggro for a time, but guess what bitch, its back and your gonna have to learn how to play around it all over again. And no, you did not have to be a GP player to reap the benefits, it heavily impacted the meta.

=

you're joking right? aggro has been the dominant percent of decks players since beta. Ill agree Grim Patron was overpowered and that it needed a nerf, but not to point where it was an automatic win and have to be destroyed. let me ask, have you ever played Patron Warrior?

People are mad because a non linear deck that required skill to win against at minimum decent players was destroyed. a deck you rarely even saw on ladder after tgt released because people who weren't good enough realized they couldn't win consistently enough with it, so they went back to aggro decks.

But GP didn't impact the aggro played at all, right? Aggro played was not the lowest SINCE beta, right? -_-

Patron is the definition of a linear deck in hearthstone with a minimal amount of RNG involved. 

Aggro was less prominent for a while when Patron become prominent on ladder and then....99% percent of those players realized they couldnt play the deck proficiently, so they dropped it and started playing aggro again. 

There is a reason secret paladin is all over the ladder. Its a powerful deck but more importantly because it doenst require you to make complex decisions based on your opponent unless at very low ranks.  

Quote from Timeiscandy >>

Quote from Ace1a >>

Calm down and stop defending this broken deck. You hated that deck a month ago so be glad it's going bye. No, dragon priest still lost 70% of the time to it. Only handlock and control Warrior managed to lose slightly less than 50% of the time. I agree divine favor is OP and unfairly punishes slower decks. MC is OP but blizzard is working on a proper counter to secrets, perhaps a minion with flare battlecry? Boom hopefully is next to be nerfed as he restricts design space. Tirion is also OP, but weak to silence. I lost more games to Patron than any other class so there.

 

I'm not sure I understand how Dr. Boom restricts design space. Would you care to clarify?

Post in the Boom thread and ill explain more. But the comparison between OP cards remains valid, they all restrict design space by keeping the meta stale and preventing other cards from seeing play.

Quote from thepoxbox >>

Quote from Timeiscandy >>

Well if we're taking all our cues from WotC then you're going to have to wait a long time for some nerfs. Like, years. Also the only format they consistently ban stuff in is Modern, and a lot of people really don't like the approach they're taking with that format. If Patron had been a thing in MTG, it probably would have taken years to see a ban. Many of the cards that were more broken and dominant in Modern were around a lot longer than Patron was in Hearthstone. 

They used to ban cards within a month. 
I remember Urza's Saga lol. What a monumental screw up, which they fixed real fast. They didn't wait 6 months like idiots, they knew they had failed. 
They are much better now at balancing, which is why they more rarely restrict or ban anything.
They also unban / unrestrict cards sometimes.

They're a paper game too so they have an excuse for not doing this whereas blizzard really has none. They're really just clinging desperately to this idea that the players will always find some kind of magical answer, and they "help them along" with failures like Lil Exorcist. Just boggles the mind. What were they thinking with that card? Is it just a flavorful card or was it a serious attempt at balancing the game without nerfs?

The only time WotC has made changes quickly are when they've made incredibly spectacular failures, such as in Urza block or with Affinity. Those changes had to happen immediately because the percentage of people playing with the cards was insane. Like 70%+ of tournament attendees insane (you could make the same argument for some decks in Hearthstone tournaments but it's a little different since MtG tournaments only allow you one deck). The most recent example of emergency bannings were with Jace the Mind Sculptor and Stoneforge Mystic and those had both been around for a year already at that point. The deck they were broken in existed for about 4 months before they were banned anyway, so it wasn't like it was a super fast response.

The argument that because this is an online CCG they should make changes more often and more quickly has never made that much sense to me. The more often they make changes the more often people will expect them to make changes in the future. Every time any deck or card becomes good everyone will just scream for a nerf. I mean, they do that now, but it would likely get much worse since people would actually expect it to happen whereas now people don't really expect fast nerfs. 

Quote from Ace1a >>

Quote from Timeiscandy >>

Quote from Ace1a >>

Calm down and stop defending this broken deck. You hated that deck a month ago so be glad it's going bye. No, dragon priest still lost 70% of the time to it. Only handlock and control Warrior managed to lose slightly less than 50% of the time. I agree divine favor is OP and unfairly punishes slower decks. MC is OP but blizzard is working on a proper counter to secrets, perhaps a minion with flare battlecry? Boom hopefully is next to be nerfed as he restricts design space. Tirion is also OP, but weak to silence. I lost more games to Patron than any other class so there.

 

I'm not sure I understand how Dr. Boom restricts design space. Would you care to clarify?

Post in the Boom thread and ill explain more. But the comparison between OP cards remains valid, they all restrict design space by keeping the meta stale and preventing other cards from seeing play.

Eeeeeeh not sure I'm interested enough in hearing your explanation to go find another thread. I feel like we have different definitions of what design space means so it wouldn't likely be a productive conversation anyway. 

Quote from Ricinaz >>

Quote from Spice_Weasel >>

Let's not fix this one card and keep a deck in the spotlight but much more reasonable (Berserker was the real problem card in the deck with Warsong anyways), let's not say "Your minions with 3 or less attack have charge," let's just say fuck this and make ladder go from 80% Paladin to 90% Paladin. Good fucking god.

As a Patron player, Patron had to be tuned down. The only real counter to the deck was CW with double brawl (and a skilled player piloting it) or Handlock and that's just wrong, no doubt about it.

That said it's sad to see how Blizzard is once again unable to fix cards without killing them. The starving buzzard/nat pagle and now warsong "fix" is just a sign of a poor development team.

As you wisely said, the same people cheering for this nerf today will ask for a nerf to paladin in the next week, since it will be uncontested on the field. Enjoy the Paladin/hunter/tempo mage ladder guys

I agree with this. The nerf on Warsong Commander is more than patron  deck. It also killed the entire meta. I do not know about CW but Handlock will be next to useless as well. After the meta became a little bit slower, they just decided to kill patron deck which is why there are slower decks like Handlock and CW. Moreover, without Patron deck, the cheaper decks that will exist now would be face hunter which I think will come back and these paladins. It would be hard for some players to create a new deck.

While it will repopularize some decks like Midrange Paladin, it killed more decks. I also get frustrated by the combo of Grim Patron decks but there are ways to counter that like how you could play around other combos. In our region, almost 90% of the match up would be Paladins, Mage or Hunter. Patron's popularity declining on its own because people now can find ways to beat it. There was no need to kill the deck.

I know that there is a better way on how they could balance the deck assuming that it does need some fix. Patron is hard to play on its own. You cannot win with a patron deck without using skills. If there is something that needs fixing, it would be the brains of some people who think that this thing will solve many problems in the meta.

It is ironic that the very creativity that they are promoting is the reason that they killed the card and the deck. The unique effect of the card opens the possibilities for more decks but since they nuked it into oblivion, there is one less card that can be used in order to satisfy such creativity.

They killed the card cause it might open up an enhanced version of the deck in future expansions/adventures.

Maybe there is/are new cards currently being made that would open up a more terrifying combo using Warsong Commander .

Quote from fuhllen >>

Quote from Ricinaz >>

Quote from Spice_Weasel >>

Let's not fix this one card and keep a deck in the spotlight but much more reasonable (Berserker was the real problem card in the deck with Warsong anyways), let's not say "Your minions with 3 or less attack have charge," let's just say fuck this and make ladder go from 80% Paladin to 90% Paladin. Good fucking god.

As a Patron player, Patron had to be tuned down. The only real counter to the deck was CW with double brawl (and a skilled player piloting it) or Handlock and that's just wrong, no doubt about it.

That said it's sad to see how Blizzard is once again unable to fix cards without killing them. The starving buzzard/nat pagle and now warsong "fix" is just a sign of a poor development team.

As you wisely said, the same people cheering for this nerf today will ask for a nerf to paladin in the next week, since it will be uncontested on the field. Enjoy the Paladin/hunter/tempo mage ladder guys

I agree with this. The nerf on Warsong Commander is more than patron  deck. It also killed the entire meta. I do not know about CW but Handlock will be next to useless as well. After the meta became a little bit slower, they just decided to kill patron deck which is why there are slower decks like Handlock and CW. Moreover, without Patron deck, the cheaper decks that will exist now would be face hunter which I think will come back and these paladins. It would be hard for some players to create a new deck.

While it will repopularize some decks like Midrange Paladin, it killed more decks. I also get frustrated by the combo of Grim Patron decks but there are ways to counter that like how you could play around other combos. In our region, almost 90% of the match up would be Paladins, Mage or Hunter. Patron's popularity declining on its own because people now can find ways to beat it. There was no need to kill the deck.

I know that there is a better way on how they could balance the deck assuming that it does need some fix. Patron is hard to play on its own. You cannot win with a patron deck without using skills. If there is something that needs fixing, it would be the brains of some people who think that this thing will solve many problems in the meta.

It is ironic that the very creativity that they are promoting is the reason that they killed the card and the deck. The unique effect of the card opens the possibilities for more decks but since they nuked it into oblivion, there is one less card that can be used in order to satisfy such creativity.

if you are so scared of all the aggro decks out there - move forward and pick some solid midrange anti aggro options - such as Dragon Priest, or Midrange Paladin - and maybe you might also use your brain and tech your deck a little more against all these nasty brainless aggro players by removin 2 lategame cards and adding somethin like 2 defender of argus - *abra cadabra* you have a good deck for the "so called new meta" 

Hearthstone ever was and always will be a game of information and of understanding changes and adapting to them - that is what seperates a really good player from a brainless netdeck user

I agree. I've decided to play Midrange Pally next week after the nerf since aggro will re emerge in ranked. The look on aggro/face deck players once i pop them heals out will be glorious XD

Quote from Linklaters >>

Quote from fuhllen >>

Quote from Ricinaz >>

Quote from Spice_Weasel >>

Let's not fix this one card and keep a deck in the spotlight but much more reasonable (Berserker was the real problem card in the deck with Warsong anyways), let's not say "Your minions with 3 or less attack have charge," let's just say fuck this and make ladder go from 80% Paladin to 90% Paladin. Good fucking god.

As a Patron player, Patron had to be tuned down. The only real counter to the deck was CW with double brawl (and a skilled player piloting it) or Handlock and that's just wrong, no doubt about it.

That said it's sad to see how Blizzard is once again unable to fix cards without killing them. The starving buzzard/nat pagle and now warsong "fix" is just a sign of a poor development team.

As you wisely said, the same people cheering for this nerf today will ask for a nerf to paladin in the next week, since it will be uncontested on the field. Enjoy the Paladin/hunter/tempo mage ladder guys

I agree with this. The nerf on Warsong Commander is more than patron  deck. It also killed the entire meta. I do not know about CW but Handlock will be next to useless as well. After the meta became a little bit slower, they just decided to kill patron deck which is why there are slower decks like Handlock and CW. Moreover, without Patron deck, the cheaper decks that will exist now would be face hunter which I think will come back and these paladins. It would be hard for some players to create a new deck.

While it will repopularize some decks like Midrange Paladin, it killed more decks. I also get frustrated by the combo of Grim Patron decks but there are ways to counter that like how you could play around other combos. In our region, almost 90% of the match up would be Paladins, Mage or Hunter. Patron's popularity declining on its own because people now can find ways to beat it. There was no need to kill the deck.

I know that there is a better way on how they could balance the deck assuming that it does need some fix. Patron is hard to play on its own. You cannot win with a patron deck without using skills. If there is something that needs fixing, it would be the brains of some people who think that this thing will solve many problems in the meta.

It is ironic that the very creativity that they are promoting is the reason that they killed the card and the deck. The unique effect of the card opens the possibilities for more decks but since they nuked it into oblivion, there is one less card that can be used in order to satisfy such creativity.

if you are so scared of all the aggro decks out there - move forward and pick some solid midrange anti aggro options - such as Dragon Priest, or Midrange Paladin - and maybe you might also use your brain and tech your deck a little more against all these nasty brainless aggro players by removin 2 lategame cards and adding somethin like 2 defender of argus - *abra cadabra* you have a good deck for the "so called new meta" 

Hearthstone ever was and always will be a game of information and of understanding changes and adapting to them - that is what seperates a really good player from a brainless netdeck user

And then what would counter Dragon Priests and Midrange Paladin? The reason why these two decks don't overrule the game is because Patron serves as a solution against these two. Secondly, Patron Warrior serves a cheap and decent competitive deck for players. Third, the existence of patron warrior makes some deck still playable.

I'm not afraid of the possible change in the meta. I'm reacting to the very act of killing the deck without thinking of the possible repercussions of such acts. I'm not upset on the agro in the meta. I'm actually glad that my Midrange Paladin and Zoo can get back in the game. My problem is that by removing the unique card text of Warsong Commander, they killed the card and the possibilities that the card could contribute in the future just like how Nat Pagle and Starving Buzzard entered seinsvergessenheit.