Let's give credit where credit was due. They handled the nerfs of Unleash the Hounds, Eaglehorn Bow pretty well - and while not a nerd, the Bane of Doom buff was well done.
They do have many awful nerfs, but its not all awfulness
I seriously don't understand how Blizzard could be so out of touch with what the players actually want. Yeah, players will always complain (even if there isn't sufficient reason to), but in this case, I think Blizzard is either oblivious to how balancing works, or they are doing this because it's somehow financially feasible. Their nerfs make no sense, and when they introduce new cards, some of them are ridiculously powerful - so powerful that it dominates the meta (like secret pally).
It's almost as if they don't want the game to be balanced.
The long and short of it is this; team 5 wasn't prepared for the long term affects of their cards when they created the game. They didn't intend to invest into it this heavily back when they created cards like starving buzzard and warsong commander, and they had much worse designers back then. Those cards limit design space /ridiculously/. Nerfing them into the ground is a better approach than trying to find their sweet spot, as that lets them add 3 or less attack minions, or beasts, without worrying about breaking the game. The results have been excellent, and will continue to be.
Ok, so can you tell me if they're all better now, why did they create Secret Pally? The deck being OP really isn't up for the discussion - it dominates the meta and the results from playing that deck is ridiculous.
Every class now has that one card that was nerfed to the point that it is unplayable.
Except Shaman, the original cards are already unplayable, no nerfs required.
What did they do to Malfurion so far?
Look up Savagery,
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I looked at this card originally and I thought, you know, it's a card, and you play this card. The card will be that card that you play so you're playing a card. So, it is one thing to play a card. If you're opponent doesn't really have any cards, the card will screw up the card pretty hard, and that means it's a pretty good card.
Every class now has that one card that was nerfed to the point that it is unplayable.
Except Shaman, the original cards are already unplayable, no nerfs required.
What did they do to Malfurion so far?
Look up Savagery,
You know that alpha is not the released version, right?
Sure, but you didn't specify. Neither did the person you're responding to.
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I looked at this card originally and I thought, you know, it's a card, and you play this card. The card will be that card that you play so you're playing a card. So, it is one thing to play a card. If you're opponent doesn't really have any cards, the card will screw up the card pretty hard, and that means it's a pretty good card.
the whole reason behind every decision of the developers is money. as much as they say they want a fun game, its all about the money. Hearthstone made Activision/Blizzard Half a Billion dollars last year. A free to play game. Ive said it before, if all the cards were at least semi playable, their revenue would drop like a stone. A tangible TCG makes it money with the purchase of the cards themselves, and since hearthstone is a free to download and own digital card game, the only way to make money is design the game around the premise that they can only make money if success is moslty dependant on microtransactions and an extremely slow progression for "free players".
Blizzard has proven that they can successfully find sweet spots for cards that make them still very relevant but choose not to in most cases. In my opinion blizzard had no idea how powerful secret paladin would be, and the same with grim patron in warrior. the frothing combo always existed, but they have realized (we already know) that most decks become extremely op because of ridiculous synergy between specific cards. they instead destroy the synergy instead of finding an appropriate level of synergy between cards. if warsong commander only gave charge to minions with 3 or less attack played from hand, not summoned, patrons would be interatcitve with opponents board, less able to board clear the turn they are played, while clearing way to face for frothing beserker (which should be a 3/3 or 2/3 instead of being able to survive 3 whirlwind effects).
the notion that trash cards have to exist to teach players not to use them is ignorant. Players learn over time that cards with synergy that dont achieve that synergy consistently enough need to be replaced, the replacement which you discover with some know how but with real testplay. no card should be good enough that it belongs in most or every deck and archetype for all classes. Blizzard is full of it, hearthstone will never be a healthy digital card game while they have to make money off of it.
While I agree they over nerfed Warsong Commander, I truly believe they couldn't let it exist as a minion that grants charge. As they stated the card limited design space. It is difficult to create a creature of 3 or below attack with a powerful effect knowing that it can be abused by warsong.
Still finding it bizarre that they made the Warsong Commander a shitty card though.
Overall I agree with the nerf but it's nerfed too much again. But I'm gonna play the devils advocate here and point out that HS devs did say in the nerf post: "we felt this change was necessary to help expand both future design space and to stand by our overarching game philosophy that battles between minions and fighting for board control is what makes Hearthstone fun and compelling."
If you know game design then you know in a game like this cards sometimes need futureproofing. Maybe they want to release another card similar to patron or some other card that would be overpowered with Warsong Commander. Maybe then want to make a spell that gives all low-attack minions +attack value.. but as long as patron combo exists they can't release these kind of cards as it would be too powerful.
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I didn't have a signature so Flux added one for me.
One issue that kind of bothers me is that both warsong and Buzzard were both basic cards. I hope this won't become a trend where every problematic basic card will be "removed" from the game. I mean if Fire Elemental will ever become a problem, should I fear that it will become a 6 mana 4/4 deal 2.....
If you look closely, you can see this is a signature and not a comment. Why are you reading? Stop reading this. Did you read this too? Dang you must like reading.
The subject of nerfing seems quite complex, and I believe Blizzard has a lot of statistics and behind the scenes knowledge to determine things that may not be apparent to us players. That being said this Warsong Commander nerf seems extreme and ultimately a bit misguided. In the end there will always be people to complain about anything, luckily some of them are hilarious.
Blizzard, the Book Author of the all-time best seller "How to destroy a successful game with shitty patches" .
Actually, they have really, really improved previous amazing and successful games like Diablo 2: Lord of Destruction through those kind of "shitty" patches as you call them.
Their issue is that their production pipeline is 6-12 months long. By the time they had relesed Grim Patron, they were already full-up designing cards for the next set. That means that they couldn't implement any proper counters (like a card that says "Enemy minions cannot Charge" or "When an enemy Charge minion comes into play, Silence it") by the time they realized that Patrons were gonna be a problem. At the earliest, we would have gotten something like that in 2016.
Of course, Blizzard can't wait that long because Blizzcon is coming up, so what we see is what happens when Blizzard tries spends 6 months trying to nerf a card.
Edit: And with this post I earned the title Warsong Commander, the delicious irony.
And, what's the problem with that? Are you working in a bigger company? Are you working in any form? 6 to 12 months is completely normal for something like this.
I am working for the worlds biggest ERP company, and honestly, do you think we are able to catch up on our deadlines? Never, really NEVER. And this company is a multi billion company.
In big companies you have a certain workflow you have to do. From developing to testing to going live takes a long road.
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Let's give credit where credit was due. They handled the nerfs of Unleash the Hounds, Eaglehorn Bow pretty well - and while not a nerd, the Bane of Doom buff was well done.
They do have many awful nerfs, but its not all awfulness
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Every class now has that one card that was nerfed to the point that it is unplayable.
Except Shaman, the original cards are already unplayable, no nerfs required.
Blizzard balance cards as well as a guy with Parkinsons balances spinning playes on sticks.
"Put your face in the light!" - Tirion Fordring
What did they do to Malfurion so far?
Make the Card: The biggest thread on the site!
My mandibles which are capable of pressing down and tearing, my talons which are known to intercept and hold.
I seriously don't understand how Blizzard could be so out of touch with what the players actually want. Yeah, players will always complain (even if there isn't sufficient reason to), but in this case, I think Blizzard is either oblivious to how balancing works, or they are doing this because it's somehow financially feasible. Their nerfs make no sense, and when they introduce new cards, some of them are ridiculously powerful - so powerful that it dominates the meta (like secret pally).
It's almost as if they don't want the game to be balanced.
And this is why you aren't Ben Brode, king of Hearthstone.
Make the Card: The biggest thread on the site!
My mandibles which are capable of pressing down and tearing, my talons which are known to intercept and hold.
Ok, so can you tell me if they're all better now, why did they create Secret Pally? The deck being OP really isn't up for the discussion - it dominates the meta and the results from playing that deck is ridiculous.
Look up Savagery,
I looked at this card originally and I thought, you know, it's a card, and you play this card. The card will be that card that you play so you're playing a card. So, it is one thing to play a card. If you're opponent doesn't really have any cards, the card will screw up the card pretty hard, and that means it's a pretty good card.
You know that alpha is not the released version, right?
Make the Card: The biggest thread on the site!
My mandibles which are capable of pressing down and tearing, my talons which are known to intercept and hold.
And the game goes on.
Check out my Custom Undead Expansion!
...Or my Custom Elemental Expansion!
Sure, but you didn't specify. Neither did the person you're responding to.
I looked at this card originally and I thought, you know, it's a card, and you play this card. The card will be that card that you play so you're playing a card. So, it is one thing to play a card. If you're opponent doesn't really have any cards, the card will screw up the card pretty hard, and that means it's a pretty good card.
Good nerfing. I want every deck that isn't my deck to disappear. Hence, I approve of this nerf.
My legendary count excluding adventure legendaries, dupes and old murk eye: 40
$$$ spent on this game: 0
Check out my card collection: http://www.hearthpwn.com/members/MCFUser175154/collection
the whole reason behind every decision of the developers is money. as much as they say they want a fun game, its all about the money. Hearthstone made Activision/Blizzard Half a Billion dollars last year. A free to play game. Ive said it before, if all the cards were at least semi playable, their revenue would drop like a stone. A tangible TCG makes it money with the purchase of the cards themselves, and since hearthstone is a free to download and own digital card game, the only way to make money is design the game around the premise that they can only make money if success is moslty dependant on microtransactions and an extremely slow progression for "free players".
Blizzard has proven that they can successfully find sweet spots for cards that make them still very relevant but choose not to in most cases. In my opinion blizzard had no idea how powerful secret paladin would be, and the same with grim patron in warrior. the frothing combo always existed, but they have realized (we already know) that most decks become extremely op because of ridiculous synergy between specific cards. they instead destroy the synergy instead of finding an appropriate level of synergy between cards. if warsong commander only gave charge to minions with 3 or less attack played from hand, not summoned, patrons would be interatcitve with opponents board, less able to board clear the turn they are played, while clearing way to face for frothing beserker (which should be a 3/3 or 2/3 instead of being able to survive 3 whirlwind effects).
the notion that trash cards have to exist to teach players not to use them is ignorant. Players learn over time that cards with synergy that dont achieve that synergy consistently enough need to be replaced, the replacement which you discover with some know how but with real testplay. no card should be good enough that it belongs in most or every deck and archetype for all classes. Blizzard is full of it, hearthstone will never be a healthy digital card game while they have to make money off of it.
While I agree they over nerfed Warsong Commander, I truly believe they couldn't let it exist as a minion that grants charge. As they stated the card limited design space. It is difficult to create a creature of 3 or below attack with a powerful effect knowing that it can be abused by warsong.
Still finding it bizarre that they made the Warsong Commander a shitty card though.
Overall I agree with the nerf but it's nerfed too much again. But I'm gonna play the devils advocate here and point out that HS devs did say in the nerf post: "we felt this change was necessary to help expand both future design space and to stand by our overarching game philosophy that battles between minions and fighting for board control is what makes Hearthstone fun and compelling."
If you know game design then you know in a game like this cards sometimes need futureproofing. Maybe they want to release another card similar to patron or some other card that would be overpowered with Warsong Commander. Maybe then want to make a spell that gives all low-attack minions +attack value.. but as long as patron combo exists they can't release these kind of cards as it would be too powerful.
I didn't have a signature so Flux added one for me.
Why is the card being nerfed to unplayability rather than
- a more subtle nerf that just stops patron going off (eg 4 power patron)
- a nerf that kills the mechanic but leaves a non-embarrasing card (eg 3 mana stat warsong commander with the new ability)
i'm assuming that the existence of warsong commander in current form is somehow impeding a mechanic in a new set that theyre developing.
Personally, I think its a shame to lose the game's only real combo deck, but the deck was so cheap it was asking to be overused.
One issue that kind of bothers me is that both warsong and Buzzard were both basic cards. I hope this won't become a trend where every problematic basic card will be "removed" from the game. I mean if Fire Elemental will ever become a problem, should I fear that it will become a 6 mana 4/4 deal 2.....
If you look closely, you can see this is a signature and not a comment. Why are you reading? Stop reading this. Did you read this too? Dang you must like reading.
Blizzard, the Book Author of the all-time best seller "How to destroy a successful game with shitty patches" .
The subject of nerfing seems quite complex, and I believe Blizzard has a lot of statistics and behind the scenes knowledge to determine things that may not be apparent to us players. That being said this Warsong Commander nerf seems extreme and ultimately a bit misguided. In the end there will always be people to complain about anything, luckily some of them are hilarious.
10/10 BM
Actually, they have really, really improved previous amazing and successful games like Diablo 2: Lord of Destruction through those kind of "shitty" patches as you call them.
And, what's the problem with that? Are you working in a bigger company? Are you working in any form? 6 to 12 months is completely normal for something like this.
I am working for the worlds biggest ERP company, and honestly, do you think we are able to catch up on our deadlines? Never, really NEVER. And this company is a multi billion company.
In big companies you have a certain workflow you have to do. From developing to testing to going live takes a long road.