Hearthpwn

Quote from ContentsMayVary jump

This is one of the more stupid ideas for a while.

Such a mechanic (where you can choose which card is discarded) would remove combo decks from the game and boost aggro even more.

but such a card is useless vs aggressive decks so its a liability against like 50% of the matchups

you can even increase the mana cost of the card if it gets out of control.

<snip> more balanced options = better game

Quote from Skiddo_Publiq jump

Quote from Sinti jump

So your idea is for everyone to just play arena decks with late game legendaries and fight for board control, cause u cant rely on your other strategies, cause they might go up in smoke due to BS RNG. Wow such a grea idea, why noone thought of that yet?:O That would surely make for some new and innovative decks .. of wait, just one (the strongest one), which every single person would play :P

i think what he meant is that if a new mechanic like discard is introduced in the game and has an impact on the meta you should rethink and rework your current decks (or w8 for others to do it and copy pasta) and strategys without whining about it and doing nothing as has been the case since forever.

Yeah i got that ... but what possible decks can u build other then arena decks, that fight for board control, if u cant be sure that your "combo pieces" or just cards u need for your chosen strategy will be removed without you being able to do anything about it? Thats rly not what this game needs, definitely not right now. I get he just wants an option to remove "OP" and annyoing cards, so he doesnt get crushed all the time, but this is not the way.

Quote from Sinti jump

Quote from Skiddo_Publiq jump

Quote from Sinti jump

So your idea is for everyone to just play arena decks with late game legendaries and fight for board control, cause u cant rely on your other strategies, cause they might go up in smoke due to BS RNG. Wow such a grea idea, why noone thought of that yet?:O That would surely make for some new and innovative decks .. of wait, just one (the strongest one), which every single person would play :P

i think what he meant is that if a new mechanic like discard is introduced in the game and has an impact on the meta you should rethink and rework your current decks (or w8 for others to do it and copy pasta) and strategys without whining about it and doing nothing as has been the case since forever.

Yeah i got that ... but what possible decks can u build other then arena decks, that fight for board control, if u cant be sure that your "combo pieces" or just cards u need for your chosen strategy will be removed without you being able to do anything about it? Thats rly not what this game needs, definitely not right now. I get he just wants an option to remove "OP" and annyoing cards, so he doesnt get crushed all the time, but this is not the way.

sorry i cnt create new decks at the top of my head without even knowing any discard card in HS. It seems you have given it much more thought than me, rly sweated over it and came to the conclusion that discard forces us to play arena.. which sounds totally normal. I mean sure an 8 mana target discard will all force us to play arena, its especially good vs hunter,zoo and face paladin. oh w8 u didnt have that card in mind? silly me.

How about a more balanced version of it that lets say wont kill combo decks and maybe shake up the meta?

Quote from partybuild jump

Oponions?

hmm its tough, the discard 3 cards from the top of the deck seems Op especially in rog since they have already an ok mill version. Id rework it as 1 from hand and 1 from deck

Yes i understand, i also think blizzard cn test discard mechanics in general and see whats the best way to go if they decide to do it.

Good try though m8.

So discard is not fun?

Okay, on that basis, let us remove Dr. Boom from the game. And any two card combo, because THAT is not fun! And let us rid the game of the shaman's overload mechanic and the warlock's discard. Because those are not fun. Can't have that. Counterspell? Get out of here!

I think there is a very polarized opinion here from players who know this would put a serious dent in their very consistent combo deck. The idea that it is not fun depends on what you are given to defend against this. If you were able to say, hide cards from your hand by putting them on your deck again, or counter those spells, this could be a fun minigame that you and your opponent are playing.

The thing is, the main problem here is that it is too easy to combo players out. And that is mainly because you are able to draw your entire deck quite easily in this game. There needs to be an answer to this kind of deck spawned by the weakness of this card game. Personally I do not think discard is the answer, because counterplay to it would need to be added as well. It is possible though. You could make the discard tied to a minion that only removes a card from your opponent's hand and puts it in custody with this minion. You get it back after it dies. Or you could have a minion that raises the cost of cards in your opponents hand on combat damage to a maximum of ten, which is really screwing up a combo. Loatheb is already a good example of how these cards should be.

Pesonally, I think we need bigger decksizes to make the combo harder to pull off.

Milling actually is like shuffling ones deck, until the last card is milled out. I suppose it hurts if you were trying to combo someone out and they randomly hit your two force of natures. Asides that, I think it is a legit way to win. That said, it is not really supported in Hearthstone. Currently overdrawing your opponent or somehow having them play a fell reaver is pretty much the strategy there.

On Dr. Boom: Yes, and how exactly would you play "around" that card? I have played the BGH and a mass dispel against Dr. Boom, and those things STILL did not cover the value of the two damage that the two boom bots did. That asides, my main point is that it is a very weak argument to not include things because *you* do not find them fun. I personally really enjoy mechanics like overload or discard.

And about discard not having any counterplay? That is nonsense. You can simply empty your hand, or have excess cards to discard to it. Remember that your opponent is paying a cost in mana, deck slots and cards for having you discard. Against discard that would let your opponent choose the card you could obviously also play that same card against them in order to not have them disrupt your combo, or ideally some other play like a creature on which you can attach some cards so that they're 1. Not able to let you discard them and 2. Increase your hand size by whatever amount of cards that creature was allowed to carry.

Maybe we could use a more subtle way of stopping combo decks. A card like Meddling Mage: You name(or select a card from your opponent's hand) a card on playing it, and say that your opponent cannot play that card until this mage gets dealt with.

Quote from djtwilite jump

Absolutely not what this game needs. Ive played Duel of Champions for a while (ubisoft cardgame based on Might & Magic) and there used to be an Academy deck there (one of the classes available) that was totally centered on discard. Even though it was relatively rare for it to hit their combo off the bat with a minimum deck size of 59, they got it into swing fairly quickly in alot of games and boy was that painful; discard after discard after discard. An endless cycle of vanishes put into HS terms. If you thought patron was uninteractive its got NOTHING on pure discard decks with alot of tools at hand. Rogue and druid mill are a walk in the park compared to that DOC deck i faced, and you really dont want to enable that sort of game.

Discard *decks* are shit. A handful of viable discards to counter fragile combos is not.

They've kept a tight reign on silence cards, similar would have to be done with good discard. Like silence it could be a great counterplay tool without getting out of hand.

I love the discard mechanic, I wish this game had it, I don't get why so many people are so sour about it.

I dunno why everybody say that MTG have more card draw. It's not, actually. You draw useless lands, and MTG have way stronger power difference between different manacosts. So in MTG it's not that uncommon for both players to sit and topdeck lands with no cards at hand, while in HS even aggro players still have like ~2-3 cards at ~6 mana.

Discard won't kill your hand entirely. Discard don't even work when you topdeck, since you play it as fast as you draw it. But discard will break combo decks like nothing else. Discard malygos, for example...

But it can be worked out. Like creature with target discard, and bring back that card on deathrattle. So full discard is silencing it, otherwise enemy is just slowed down.

Or like putting card from hand in opponent's deck (or on the bottom of the deck). This sounds like druid discard option, maybe even choose one on Recycle.

It may discard another random card from your hand as warlock option (so 2 to 1 trade).

Something can be done for it to not be autoinclude, be class-flavoured and balanced.

To be fair, magic the gathering definitely has the ability to draw your entire deck. There are even very degenerate decks that can do so on turn one. These decks are however NOT allowed under most tournament rules and settings. In the standard tournament setting, the equivalent of what hearthstone has in card quantity, this sort of thing does not exist or you REALLY need to work for it and be very lucky, mainly because it makes it very easy for degenerate combo decks to thrive.

Now, perhaps discard is not the answer. If so, I think many will agree we need to have some tool to fight these decks. Instants will never be a thing, random discard is probably too back-breaking. I think nerfing any card would not be good either, because it sets a bad precedent. I would not like a silver bullet either like a card that says "minions cannot come onto the battlefield unless if they were put into play as a card", because that would just be yet another big game hunter I would need to pollute my decks with. But if not these, then what?

Quote from needmoredesu jump

I dunno why everybody say that MTG have more card draw.

I sense the level of MTG experience and discussion is very low on Hearthstone forums. For the record, I do not consider myself a very experienced Magic player; but, I can't take anyone who compares Vintage MTG to Hearthstone seriously because of the number of players who play Vintage. It's not representative of the game most Magic players know and love or largely play.

Yet what do we find when discussing MTG on Hearthstone forums? Constant discussion of cards legal only in scarcely played formats. I thought that the players only pointed out cards like the Power 9 for shock value at first; but, some seriously believe that Vintage Magic is a valid comparison when drawing an analogy between the current state of MTG and Hearthstone. 

Anyway, it saddens me how few Hearthstone players know Magic and it makes me feel old. =[

This would just make the meta pure face aggro, decks that dont care about what they draw.

You kill all the control and combo decks that make this game fun.

This would be worse then undertaker meta.

Quote from dscarmo jump

This would just make the meta pure face aggro, decks that dont care about what they draw.

You kill all the control and combo decks that make this game fun.

How adding control tool kills control? This "fun" unineractive combo decks is the only thing stops pure control decks now.

Quote from EchelonHD jump

Quote from needmoredesu jump

I dunno why everybody say that MTG have more card draw.

I sense the level of MTG experience and discussion is very low on Hearthstone forums. For the record, I do not consider myself a very experienced Magic player; but, I can't take anyone who compares Vintage MTG to Hearthstone seriously because of the number of players who play Vintage. It's not representative of the game most Magic players know and love or largely play.

Yet what do we find when discussing MTG on Hearthstone forums? Constant discussion of cards legal only in scarcely played formats. I thought that the players only pointed out cards like the Power 9 for shock value at first; but, some seriously believe that Vintage Magic is a valid comparison when drawing an analogy between the current state of MTG and Hearthstone. 

Anyway, it saddens me how few Hearthstone players know Magic and it makes me feel old. =[

Not so much OLD as you are..well.. wealthier.  had MTG started off as a F2P game I would've been ALL on it decades ago.  

Well F2P and with the internet existing, given how MTG didnt' exist in my world for a lot of that time :P.  

Note that over 50% of HP players never pay a dime, and over 80% only pay about $20. 

How adding control tool kills control? This "fun" unineractivecombo decks is the only thing stops pure control decks now.

Actually control decks are better suited to fighting Combo than Aggro.  handlock and control warrior are pretty much the only decks that can reliably do great against a well used patron deck.  And combo is what's keeping aggro at bay, which control has a problem with.

from-the-hand discards don't harm aggro much, but can REALLY kill off control.  That's why decks FULL of such things, mill, are deemed anti-control decks.

How to fix discard: Make a 10 mana 1/1. It discards two opponent cards. It draws you four cards and then discards four cards from your hand. Control decks are limited because they are sent into fatigue. Aggro decks cant go that slow.

But mill IS the ultimate control deck. There isn't more control oriented deck than druid mill or dreadsteed warlock. Handlock has ramp-midrangy stuff (hand cards), control warrior has late game combo setups on it's own (and have armor to counter enemy OTKs, which is why it's better at control than many other classes).

When you play druid mill / dreadsteed lock, you remove every threat opponent plays. You can remove every threat from control decks too. So if a deck plays control game vs control deck, it's more control than that "control" deck.

And I do make a statement that the only REAL problem for this sort of decks is OTKs. I never ever beated patron with dreadsteed deck (unless they were greedy and put frothings without charge), tho I kill anything from aggro to control. If I had discard for warsongs, even with "discard random card from your hand" effect on it - it would be different game entirely.

I am a Magic Player. What works to balance Magic won't necessarily work the same way in Hearthstone.

Your suggestion will shift the balance of the game towards aggro decks and make combo decks unplayable.

Aggro decks don't care about key cards being discarded because, hey, they have no key cards.

It eliminates the need for aggro players to try and play around what he thinks is in the opponent's hand, which is where some of the depth in decision-making in Hearthstone comes from.

Discard is a good idea, but it need to be adapted to hearthstone. A "put a (random or choiced) card of your opponents' hand after the first x (5?) cards of his deck, you opponent draw a card" would be interesting...it dont destroy vital cards of combo decks, but it slows them if you play it at the right time.