Warsong Commander has been reworked and now reads: Whenever you play a minion with 3 or less Attack, give it Charge. [This patch note is mistaken: the card was in fact changed to read "Whenever you summon a minion with 3 or less Attack, give it Charge". Previously: Your other minions have Charge.]
Charge (the spell, not the keyword) has been reworked and now costs 3 mana. The card’s new power reads: “Give a friendly minion +2 Attack and Charge”. [Previously: Give a friendly minion Charge. (0 mana)]
Both of these cards were key components in “One Turn Kill” or “OTK” decks that kill your opponent in one turn without requiring any cards on the board. We want the game to be about playing minions and fighting for board control rather than just waiting until you can play your big combo and win in one turn with no interaction from your opponent.
Defender of Argus is now a 2/3 (down from 3/3)
Defender of Argus was a card that found itself automatically included in many decks due to its power and stats. We want players to have an option of what cards they put in their decks, so cards that feel like they must be in all decks (especially Neutral ones) are not ideal.
Argent Commander is now a 4/2 (was a 4/3).
Argent Commander is played more often than we’d like, so we are reducing its power slightly to increase the variety of cards being played
Leeroy Jenkins now costs 5 (up from 4)
Leeroy Jenkins created a strategy that revolved around trying to defeat your opponent in one turn without requiring any cards on the board. Fighting for board control and battles between minions make an overall game of Hearthstone more fun and compelling, but taking 20+ damage in one turn is not particularly fun or interactive. This was occurring when Leeroy was used in combination with other cards like Power Overwhelming, Faceless Manipulator, Cold Blood, Shadowstep, and Unleash the Hounds, among others.
This was pulled from a post on reddit, but I think it should be discussed here too. These are all old patch notes regarding nerfs. Thanks to Blizzard now being so afraid of nerfing cards, or buffing for that matter, I think its not only affecting content that's out there currently but future content too.
To pluck an example, though there are many possibles, i choose the cutpurse. It must have been patently obvious this card would not work as a 2/2 as they were testing it, in the past they would have just made it a 2/3 and nerf it if it was game breaking.
The inspire mechanic in general must have terrifying for them....talk about potential OP snowballing decks that everyones crying about within days if they're any good, so play safe and make the cards and indeed the decks poor, just allowing for one or two usable cards with the new mechanic that will slot into existing decks.
This is supposed to be an online CCG, can we please get back to the beneifits of that, rather than playing some old physical card game? It was great when Blizzard buffed bane of doom, great when they nerfed undertaker, why is it these are the last changes I remember? They were ages ago.
Yup these quotes have been brought up time and time again and by this point Blizzard knows the current state of the game. Whether or not they decide to tinker around with problematic cards that's up to them. Ben Brode for example seems a bit conservative, not wanting to make any drastic changes that could break current decks while also wanting to implement more cards to deal with these cards and decks.
A bunch of suggestions have already arisen as well like the concept of a sideboard, where you can have your tech cards, so if you know you're playing against a handlock you can add in a bgh, etc.
That there's a set rotation similar to MTG where there's the current format "standard" (which in this case would be ranked) then "legacy" where anything goes.
Blizzard has a few options all of which have their upsides and downsides.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"In this world where time is your enemy, it is my greatest ally. This grand game of life that you think you play in fact plays you. To that I say... Let the games begin!" - Nefarian
If you hear "The angry chicken podcast number 100" Ben Brode is on the show and he answers some questions, also some regarding nerfs. You can find on youtube, and earlier there was a link on the frontpage of hearthpwn (a week ago or so).
Like, why did they nerf a card that felt like an auto-include, but still don't do ANYTHING about shredder?
Or allow Froth, Patr, Wars OTK from empty board, yet nerfed a previous warrior OTK?
Is 'card value' really thhe term used here? I'm sorry, but in that case, why did they set the rule in stone that they must give refunds for GAME BALANCING?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Give a man a Murloc, and he'll eat for a day.
Give him a Murloc Knight, and people will hate him.
i agree, the beauty of a virtual ctg is that they can balance they game pretty easily, unlike physical games like magic, where the only way is to ban cards. it just seems like blizz can't admit that they fuck up sometimes. the game doesn't fix itself , like this expansion for example , they clearly tried to slow down the game, but it's not like releasing a bunch of slow ass cards is gonna slow it, because the good quick ones still exist and they're gonna farm the new crap. on a side note i can't believe they didn't nerf patron, just look at the similarities with my beloved miracle rogue, the reasons they gave to nerf it and compare it to patron. it just blows my mind , it's not even a matter of the deck being OP or whatever, it's just consistency. i remember clearly one of the reasons they nerfed leroy was because they said it wasn't fun to get burst down from 20 something life, but i guess getting burst from 30 life 20 armor or more is ok.
Nobody is ignoring this, even if these cards were around since the beta they've always had problems, with the new cards it's even more prevalent. It's the synergy that Warsong + Patron + Frothing have and the natural card cycle of the class and the cost reduction from Emperor that make the deck absolutely nasty. Warsong + worgens + frothings hasn't been a thing since the beta, so it'd make sense why people are complaining about a much stronger variation of the OTK warrior.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"In this world where time is your enemy, it is my greatest ally. This grand game of life that you think you play in fact plays you. To that I say... Let the games begin!" - Nefarian
Its just weird because patron is much better than miracle rogue ever was. It has more draw consistency since it doesnt rely on you drawing into an auctioneer early, it has better board clears with the patron combo, and it has potential for 40+ damage in a single turn with only one tick from emperor. Miracle was nerfed out of existence very purposely; the leeroy nerfs honestly didnt do much, rogues just started running coldblood. But with the 6 mana auctioneer it finally died.
They've talked about this subject countless times and they have given clear reasons on why they are reluctant to nerf cards. They may not be reasons that you have considered, and they may not be reasons you agree with, but they are somewhat logical reasons.
Let the argument about Grim Patron aside and not discuss if the deck is OP. Its maybe not. It maybe is. But the fact that Miracle Rogue got nerfed trough its Burst Potential or trough its Card Draw Mechanics via Auctioneer and this Patron Deck still exists in its current form with even better Damage Output, Card Draw is kinda bonkers. Its the definition of inconsistancy.
There is a big difference that you are forgetting, that was then and this is now. Just like all card game Hearthstone has seen a power creep and Patron is no more dominant in this meta than Miracle rogue was in its meta, in fact I think it is much less dominant than Miracle was. Add on top of that that Leeroy was nerfed due to its burst potential in all three of the top decks of that meta, and not only because of Miracle Rogue. The situations are quite different in my opinion.
It's like if you took a new average card for YuGiOh and compared it to the cards that were so broken that they had to ban them years ago, the average card now is much better, it's just not as broken because everything in the game is now better as well.
"We dont like nerfing [anymore] because players will feel BAD and not like they have real cards" - most bs excuse i ever heard. I feel bad enough already because of stupid excuses and op cancer decks that you refuse to nerf.
Instead of buffing bad and unplayable cards they may release better versions of them in the future - Evil Heckler, Ice Rager.
Instead of nerfing op cancer cards-comboes-decks they just release new even more op cancer combo-cards-decks so people will forget about old one and play them less - Gp, Mysterious Challenger, Boom.
And cards-classes-comboes that were already nerfed to shit... lets just pretend that never happened. Aucteoneer, Leeroy, Buzzard.
Well played blizzard. Nerf miracle rogue because it otk, keep otk patron. Nice balance.
"We dont like nerfing [anymore] because players will feel BAD and not like they have real cards" - most bs excuse i ever heard. I feel bad enough already because of stupid excuses and op cancer decks that you refuse to nerf.
Wow, that's a very frustrating and confusing statement from him, since Hearthstone cards AREN'T real cards, regardless of how people feel about them. They can't be traded, and technically players don't even really own them - if Blizzard ever decides to pull the plug on Hearthstone, and inevitably they will (decades from now if we're being generous), everyone's collection is gone for good. That's not the case with cards IRL, which can be traded, sold, or simply preserved, potentially forever.
I think Hearthstone being a digital game is precisely why changes should be made - namely, because they actually CAN be made. It's fair to say that there are a plethora of cards that if buffed or nerfed, even just the tiniest bit, would make for a better and more balanced game overall.
"We dont like nerfing [anymore] because players will feel BAD and not like they have real cards" - most bs excuse i ever heard. I feel bad enough already because of stupid excuses and op cancer decks that you refuse to nerf.
Wow, that's a very frustrating and confusing statement from him, since Hearthstone cards AREN'T real cards, regardless of how people feel about them. They can't be traded, and technically players don't even really own them - if Blizzard ever decides to pull the plug on Hearthstone, and inevitably they will (decades from now if we're being generous), everyone's collection is gone for good. That's not the case with cards IRL, which can be traded, sold, or simply preserved, potentially forever.
I think Hearthstone being a digital game is precisely why changes should be made - namely, because they actually CAN be made. It's fair to say that there are a plethora of cards that if buffed or nerfed, even just the tiniest bit, would make for a better and more balanced game overall.
Exactly. In other card games, card that were OP would be straight up BANNED. Blizzard has the freedom to simply change a card and they ain't even doing that.
This was pulled from a post on reddit, but I think it should be discussed here too. These are all old patch notes regarding nerfs. Thanks to Blizzard now being so afraid of nerfing cards, or buffing for that matter, I think its not only affecting content that's out there currently but future content too.
To pluck an example, though there are many possibles, i choose the cutpurse. It must have been patently obvious this card would not work as a 2/2 as they were testing it, in the past they would have just made it a 2/3 and nerf it if it was game breaking.
The inspire mechanic in general must have terrifying for them....talk about potential OP snowballing decks that everyones crying about within days if they're any good, so play safe and make the cards and indeed the decks poor, just allowing for one or two usable cards with the new mechanic that will slot into existing decks.
This is supposed to be an online CCG, can we please get back to the beneifits of that, rather than playing some old physical card game? It was great when Blizzard buffed bane of doom, great when they nerfed undertaker, why is it these are the last changes I remember? They were ages ago.
They don't want to give dust refunds.
Unless they nerf Warsong Commander. You can't dust that.
Give a man a Murloc, and he'll eat for a day.
Give him a Murloc Knight, and people will hate him.
Yup these quotes have been brought up time and time again and by this point Blizzard knows the current state of the game. Whether or not they decide to tinker around with problematic cards that's up to them. Ben Brode for example seems a bit conservative, not wanting to make any drastic changes that could break current decks while also wanting to implement more cards to deal with these cards and decks.
A bunch of suggestions have already arisen as well like the concept of a sideboard, where you can have your tech cards, so if you know you're playing against a handlock you can add in a bgh, etc.
That there's a set rotation similar to MTG where there's the current format "standard" (which in this case would be ranked) then "legacy" where anything goes.
Blizzard has a few options all of which have their upsides and downsides.
"In this world where time is your enemy, it is my greatest ally. This grand game of life that you think you play in fact plays you. To that I say... Let the games begin!" - Nefarian
You should probaply send a link to these messages to Brode or someone who will interview Ben on it.
I want some insight on why they are letting those standerds down.
Give a man a Murloc, and he'll eat for a day.
Give him a Murloc Knight, and people will hate him.
If you hear "The angry chicken podcast number 100" Ben Brode is on the show and he answers some questions, also some regarding nerfs. You can find on youtube, and earlier there was a link on the frontpage of hearthpwn (a week ago or so).
Like, why did they nerf a card that felt like an auto-include, but still don't do ANYTHING about shredder?
Or allow Froth, Patr, Wars OTK from empty board, yet nerfed a previous warrior OTK?
Is 'card value' really thhe term used here? I'm sorry, but in that case, why did they set the rule in stone that they must give refunds for GAME BALANCING?
Give a man a Murloc, and he'll eat for a day.
Give him a Murloc Knight, and people will hate him.
i agree, the beauty of a virtual ctg is that they can balance they game pretty easily, unlike physical games like magic, where the only way is to ban cards. it just seems like blizz can't admit that they fuck up sometimes. the game doesn't fix itself , like this expansion for example , they clearly tried to slow down the game, but it's not like releasing a bunch of slow ass cards is gonna slow it, because the good quick ones still exist and they're gonna farm the new crap. on a side note i can't believe they didn't nerf patron, just look at the similarities with my beloved miracle rogue, the reasons they gave to nerf it and compare it to patron. it just blows my mind , it's not even a matter of the deck being OP or whatever, it's just consistency. i remember clearly one of the reasons they nerfed leroy was because they said it wasn't fun to get burst down from 20 something life, but i guess getting burst from 30 life 20 armor or more is ok.
I don't think they have a proper way of nerfing it without completely turning something else to shit.
So we're all just ignoring most of this was in beta, right?
Nobody is ignoring this, even if these cards were around since the beta they've always had problems, with the new cards it's even more prevalent. It's the synergy that Warsong + Patron + Frothing have and the natural card cycle of the class and the cost reduction from Emperor that make the deck absolutely nasty. Warsong + worgens + frothings hasn't been a thing since the beta, so it'd make sense why people are complaining about a much stronger variation of the OTK warrior.
"In this world where time is your enemy, it is my greatest ally. This grand game of life that you think you play in fact plays you. To that I say... Let the games begin!" - Nefarian
Its just weird because patron is much better than miracle rogue ever was. It has more draw consistency since it doesnt rely on you drawing into an auctioneer early, it has better board clears with the patron combo, and it has potential for 40+ damage in a single turn with only one tick from emperor. Miracle was nerfed out of existence very purposely; the leeroy nerfs honestly didnt do much, rogues just started running coldblood. But with the 6 mana auctioneer it finally died.
Ben brode has talked about multible times go look it up
They've talked about this subject countless times and they have given clear reasons on why they are reluctant to nerf cards. They may not be reasons that you have considered, and they may not be reasons you agree with, but they are somewhat logical reasons.
There is a big difference that you are forgetting, that was then and this is now. Just like all card game Hearthstone has seen a power creep and Patron is no more dominant in this meta than Miracle rogue was in its meta, in fact I think it is much less dominant than Miracle was. Add on top of that that Leeroy was nerfed due to its burst potential in all three of the top decks of that meta, and not only because of Miracle Rogue. The situations are quite different in my opinion.
It's like if you took a new average card for YuGiOh and compared it to the cards that were so broken that they had to ban them years ago, the average card now is much better, it's just not as broken because everything in the game is now better as well.
"We dont like nerfing [anymore] because players will feel BAD and not like they have real cards" - most bs excuse i ever heard. I feel bad enough already because of stupid excuses and op cancer decks that you refuse to nerf.
Instead of buffing bad and unplayable cards they may release better versions of them in the future - Evil Heckler, Ice Rager.
Instead of nerfing op cancer cards-comboes-decks they just release new even more op cancer combo-cards-decks so people will forget about old one and play them less - Gp, Mysterious Challenger, Boom.
And cards-classes-comboes that were already nerfed to shit... lets just pretend that never happened. Aucteoneer, Leeroy, Buzzard.
Well played blizzard. Nerf miracle rogue because it otk, keep otk patron. Nice balance.
Wow, that's a very frustrating and confusing statement from him, since Hearthstone cards AREN'T real cards, regardless of how people feel about them. They can't be traded, and technically players don't even really own them - if Blizzard ever decides to pull the plug on Hearthstone, and inevitably they will (decades from now if we're being generous), everyone's collection is gone for good. That's not the case with cards IRL, which can be traded, sold, or simply preserved, potentially forever.
I think Hearthstone being a digital game is precisely why changes should be made - namely, because they actually CAN be made. It's fair to say that there are a plethora of cards that if buffed or nerfed, even just the tiniest bit, would make for a better and more balanced game overall.
Exactly. In other card games, card that were OP would be straight up BANNED. Blizzard has the freedom to simply change a card and they ain't even doing that.
Hearthstone...I play that.
Music...I make that.
Youtube...I have that.
https://www.youtube.com/user/FreeloaderMC