Hearthpwn

Patron is a necessary evil. Patron needs to exist to keep some decks in check.

Quote from smass41 jump

Patron/Frothing combo is the problem.  As others have pointed out already.  I know its called a Patron deck, but the issue that breaks the deck is the combination of patron, board damage (whirlwind, deaths bite, etc), and a frothing on board.  The patron and its endless "get in here" is what buffs the frothing to a broken level, which then gets to charge your face for 30+ damage due to the broken warsong interaction.  That is the deck's broken combo.

So lets not focus on patron - lets focus on the combo - and once you do that the solution to balance the deck is crystal clear:  Warsong should only provide charge to minions with attack of 3 or less.  Done and freaking done.  The warsong/patron combo I can live with.  With just patron and warsong, you at least have a chance to deal with it the next turn with AOE board clear.  What makes the current patron deck broken is the frothing combo, because you have no way to counter it.  You are dead to the charging frothing.  Period.

 

Yes. Exactly this. Anyone can see that the issue is that Frothing should never get a charge if he has 25-30 attack.

Quote from MCFUser175154 jump

Patron is a necessary evil. Patron needs to exist to keep some decks in check.

Decks like... i dunno... Patron Warrior?

I found that this all comes into the issue of this game having a low 30 hp hero health pool, let's say health was 30,000 then then you have a lot for numbers to play with (so 4/3 shredder would be 4,000/3,000, say it needed a nerf you could make it 3,500/3,000) it feels to me like this game is going to have no where to move soon enough, for each point of mana a card needs certain stats along with certain things to needs to do we already saw last expansion not really changing the meta to much for some classes this will only get worse.

Quote from Ricinaz jump

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EInLO6A2Ssw This is a Tutorial of Trump (one of the best Handlock player in the world) and i highly suggest you to watch it.

Also notice the Video description : "Handlock is a heavy control deck that abuses its Hero Power to draw many cards very early on to empower minions like Mountain Giant and Twilight Drake while being very defensive at the same time with Molten Giants and a lot of taunt givers."

So you choose not to think about arguments, but refer to authorities. That's Ad Hominem level of argument. 

The thousands of games from other people do... 

Quote from hebbe84 jump

Quote from Protar jump

 I think Shredder would be much more balanced as a 3/4. The problem as is, is that it's both sticky and aggressive. It can trade up very well and then still leave a body. If you swap its attack and health you focus all of its power into its stickiness. So it would still be very powerful. But it wouldn't be able to kill a lot of minions which are currently out of the meta because they don't stand up to Shredder. 

I'm actually pretty sure that making Piloted Shredder a 3/4 would be a massive buff. It no longer dies to like every 2- and 3-drop currently being played, Fiery War Axe, Frostbolt, Darkbomb, Sludge Belcher and the list goes on and on. What 4-drops exactly would be played, that aren't currently being played, if shredder were to be a 3/4?

No, I say it would be a massive buff.

I'm just remembering when Savage Combatant was unveiled. A powerful card with a great ability on top of vanilla stats...and yet it's rendered useless because Shredder can kill it. The 5/4 for 4 mana distribution is pretty much completely invalidated. I'm talking primarily about Shredder limiting future design space. By switching its attack and health, you don't nerf it, you just make it more specific. It's better at sticking on the board, better at killing two drops. But against other 3 and 4 drops the competition is more even. 

However I could also see it being nerfed straight up to a 3/3. And in fact that might be best. 

Why do people complain so much? I get it if you're complaining about OP classes like secret pally or patron warrior.. but piloted shredder? Wtf? It's powerful but neutral. Being the first one to throw it on the board does not even come close to guaranteeing a win. 

Quote from Cornfalk3 jump

To everyone who says, Patron doesn't need a nerf: Even against "the best counter" in a tournament Patron can get out an OTK without even calculating:

Jump to 35:00

I have to admit, that Trump got 2 and an almost win against the Patron deck, but all of the deck he brought are designed as counter decks to Patron.

 

To everyone, who says Patron and/or OTK needs a nerf: I like the option to run an OTK deck and also Freeze Mage and Oil Rogue perform often OTKs (not 30 damage at once, but almost). Nerfing Patron is still necessary in my eyes, but it is insanely hard to find a balanced nerf, so the deck doesn't become unplayable.

Pavel is a professional player who knows how to pilot Patron Warrior. Once he played Emperor T, he started calculating damage, "Oh good, 4 + 2 + 2 + 2 = 10, I can play all my minions, and Inner Rage and Whirlwind next turn." He passes the turn and thinks like shit crazy on how much damage he is going to do, while the opponent is playing. "So he'll kill Emp T by running drake, unless he has a followup. If not, then there'll be 4 maybe more minions in play... I know I'll play all my minions first, so if there are 8 minions in play, then I use Inner Rage and generate another Patron while getting +1 FB Trigger, and we'll have 9 total minions in play when I use whirlwind, which is 9 extra damage for both berserkers, so they're now 12 power... I'll also have a 5/1, a 3/2, and two 3/3s for 11 power to kill one of the drakes, and 3 left over. If I was to kill the drake with three minions, that's 6 extra triggers on both of my FBs so I'll have two of them at 18 power each, which one can kill the drake, making the other a 20/3 and then him..." By now the opponent made the trade for Thaurisan, plays more minions, and then Heal bot, "Oh good the minion number didn't change! but he's at 23 health... Well since the minion count is still 4 on his field when I burst, I'll have the 20/3 Frothing and a 3/3 Patron, and if anything, I still have my axe."

He was doing math before his turn even started, and you have to in order to be a good patron player or else you may misplay or take too long. Pavel did calculate. The announcers didn't.

Quote from MCFUser175154 jump

Patron is a necessary evil. Patron needs to exist to keep some decks in check.

Patron is absolutely NOT a necessary evil. Every time this kind of "evil" has existed in the game previously it has been fixed and removed, the only reasons it still exists is because of Blizzard's insistence on waiting x amount of months before a fix "in principle" and probably mild embarrassment at the fact that this deck even occurred in their game. Ben Brode admitted himself on the TAC podcast that it concerns the team and that they would rather it's OTK didn't exist, and another dev admitted shortly after BRM that they didn't thoroughly playtest Grim Patron.

Quote from Serology jump

Quote from MCFUser175154 jump

Patron is a necessary evil. Patron needs to exist to keep some decks in check.

Patron is absolutely NOT a necessary evil. Every time this kind of "evil" has existed in the game previously it has been fixed and removed, the only reasons it still exists is because of Blizzard's insistence on waiting x amount of months before a fix "in principle" and probably mild embarrassment at the fact that this deck even occurred in their game. Ben Brode admitted himself on the TAC podcast that it concerns the team and that they would rather it's OTK didn't exist, and another dev admitted shortly after BRM that they didn't thoroughly playtest Grim Patron.

Well, it's good to hear that they know Patron OTK is a problem that should probably be looked into.

Also happy to hear he's negative on GPW, so we'll see.

Quote from BrosephStalin jump

Why do people complain so much? I get it if you're complaining about OP classes like secret pally or patron warrior.. but piloted shredder? Wtf? It's powerful but neutral. Being the first one to throw it on the board does not even come close to guaranteeing a win. 

My complaint with Shredder is not that it's a game winner. It's that it makes it incredibly hard for Blizzard to make new four drops which are worth considering over Shredder. Blizzard wants their new cards to be played presumably and Shredder either stops that or encourages power creep. 

What a bunch of crybabies, it seems a lot of people doesn't enjoy competitive play.

The game is very young still it will take time for it tomature and I think the current Blizzard strategy of avoid nerfs and release hard counters is a good one.

Back when I played Magic people din't complained as much as this, even when the game was way more expensive, you needed some very expensive decks to be competitive at all in some expansions (urza Sagas, tempest,  mirrodin). It was all about finding new decks, counters, practicing all the time, having fun while being competitive. I really miss playing it, sadly no time at all to get in to it again this days.

Hearthstone is a good game, it will only get better in time, and surely at one point Blizzard will start implementing "blocks" to restrict the card pool and new strategies and decks will arise. Give it time, have fun, experiment, it's a rare opportunity to get so early in a game that has the chance to grow very big and learn it inside out.

Quote from Primalthirst jump

 I think they were correct in allowing the community time to identify a counter, one just hasn't really appeared.

This ^

Part of the issue is that there *may* just not be one :(

Another issue is Emperor. Reducing a 13 ish mana combo down to 9 is just gross, its the only real reason that Patron can pull off the combo. There are a million combinations of OTK in Hearthstone, but none of them cost 10 mana. If they did, it would be broken. Emperor lets this combo happen, he lets a lot of combos happen. He is the number one instigator of combos like this. I like emperor as a card, I think he is the only reason control decks have a chance in alot of hyper aggro metas (control needs ramp, until BRM only druid had it and they were shite at control). Unfortunately he is just used for enabling OTK and blizzard has never liked OTK.

I vote give Emperor the Paegle nerf, something like this:

Yes they are slow and over the last year this has been their MO. With miracle they let it live for many months, too, until they had a chance to release Naxx and see if it helped. After Naxx they didn't nerf a card until after GvG to see if it would help fight Undertaker. People are really impatient. THey are giving the meta a chance to solve itself before daddy brode has to come in and take our toys away. They say this time and time again, nerfing cards is a last resort, and people are all like "waaaaah waaaaah game not fair make me happy now." They are being slow purposefully. Before release they were a little quicker because the game wasn't release. They had the space to say "let's get everything we can right before release". Now it's release and they have to take extra precautions. They really don't want to ever nerf anything, so they'll wait to see if people can figure it out first.

Quote from Jazio jump

And it's understandable - every day they're waiting, the more money they make. It's annoying, but it's obvious they want to make money on their work.

Up to a point it will make money, but eventually it will kill the game. Everyone wanted/thought TGT would slow down the game. Didn't even make a dent, still fast as ever. Blizzard even said that they were trying to slow it down because of so many complaints about aggro. They failed. Eventually people will just stop playing if they don't fix the things everyone wants to be fixed.

They may be bringing in immediate cash, but they are hurting the the long term future of the game, both in number of players, and in cash flow.

Not listening to customers is how many games die. And I'm not saying bend a knee to every voiced opinion, but when something like Dr. Boom Nerf thread has 1400+ posts and still rising, it's pretty obvious that the community agrees with nerfing it. Not a flippant statement.

Hopefully they wise up sooner rather than later. I for one have been playing a lot less, and it's a game I actually really like, great game initially, bad implementation by devs.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised to learn that the number of Hearthstone players is actually decreasing. Sure, they got a slight bump from the expansion, but it dies down quickly when it is another expansion that's just more of the same speed/aggro that people have already stated they are sick of.