Looking at the aggro options, they look way more appealing. I mean healing wave is the only card that will actually slow down the game. Tuskar jouster heals for 1 less and stats are irrelevant for the aggro player on turn 5. Anyway, I put together a few aggro decks, but looking at that warlock deck, it just seems insane. I expect zoo to be top tier again.
Seems like you worked on that real hard. It'll speed up, slow down, or keep the meta the same (aka we can't know yet). I had similar concerns to your thoughts after reading through the card announcements. We'll have to wait and see how it affects the meta. Joust and inspire seem to be very slow mechanics, but could have broader effects that none of us see yet. Personally, I'm mostly excited for a few dragon cards that seem to make a few classes able to now run a mid+ range dragon control (priest and warrior in particularly).
There has to be something better than King's Elekk to include in the Beast deck. I would almost prefer 1 Dire Wolf Alpha and 1 Scavenging Hyena, or maybe just the 2 Hyenas... You're going to win the King's Elekk joust maybe 1/3 of the time... Actually, maybe just 1 Hyena and 1 Bear Trap? That card is really nice value for a 2 drop; you could even include 2 of them.
I agree with OP. Shaman gets one heal spell. Priest got one. And two taunt dragons. I think inspire is a joke. No control deck will survive long enough vs aggro to get value out of that. Zombie chow and ancient healbot are still the best anti-aggro tools. This expansion is a joke. Lots of expensive legendaries that noone can use because they already died turn 6.
I agree with OP. Shaman gets one heal spell. Priest got one. And two taunt dragons. I think inspire is a joke. No control deck will survive long enough vs aggro to get value out of that. Zombie chow and ancient healbot are still the best anti-aggro tools. This expansion is a joke. Lots of expensive legendaries that noone can use because they already died turn 6.
Hearthstone works as a rock, paper, scissors game. TGT brings new cards, new mechanics and new synergies. Yes, the aggro decks wills improve. But so will the control decks, not to mention completely new decks that will influence the meta.
As we've seen from Blackrock Mountain (Emperor Thaurissan and Grim Patron) new decks can rise with the addition of one or two cards. Grim Patron and Malylock, two of the best decks out there today, did not exists before Blackrock Mountain.
If aggro decks infest the meta, the meta will balance itself. That's the beauty of Hearthstone (and the comparison to rock, paper, scissors). If a lot of people are picking rock, eventually people start picking paper, and rock will no longer be a good choice of weapon. There's enough powerful healing and removal in the game. Whether you should play it depends on the metagame.
There has to be something better than King's Elekk to include in the Beast deck. I would almost prefer 1 Dire Wolf Alpha and 1 Scavenging Hyena, or maybe just the 2 Hyenas... You're going to win the King's Elekk joust maybe 1/3 of the time... Actually, maybe just 1 Hyena and 1 Bear Trap? That card is really nice value for a 2 drop; you could even include 2 of them.
I thought about Scavenging but I reconsidered. Too situational for me.
It doesn't matter what you play on turn 2 because it will most likely die. Might as well have a bloodfen raptor that draws you 1/3 of the time. I don't see bear trap being superior to snake trap. Also, it is even more unlikely to activate. With snake, it is because they must trade. They don't have to hit your face for bear trap.
It I disagree with the Bear Trap comment. Snake Trap you want to trigger in a position that is comfortable for you. Leokk and Knife Juggler are pretty bad when they gain Snakes afterwards. With a Juggler on board, do I want to hit Juggler to risk 3 knives, or do I test face and risk a juggle plus a mentionable taunt. With a 2/2 minion both scenes can go horribly wrong.
And, you use your shitty minion to see if face has Explosive trap. You don't do it first with a 3 health minion though because it also could be Freezing. Bear trap will mix that up pretty nicely - I imagine. It's a beast. Grizzly won't die to early game weapons, can't be traded with Haunted Creeper or Dudes. And it just got one mana cheaper in that context.
I like this philosophy in principle. However, you do have to reckon with the aggro mindset, which is not very imaginative or creative. Take (as a random example) Face Punters, who appear to think something along these lines: "Hmm, the opponent just ran out Bloodmage Thalnos. Should I maybe kill it with Glaivezooka? Naahhhhh! HIT FACE! HIT FACE! HIT FACE!"
So presumably the same reasoning would apply in the wider sense. "Hmm, I'm seeing a lot of people try Paper in a vain attempt to suppress players like me. Would it maybe be strategic to switch to Scissors? Naahhhhh! ROCK! ROCK! ROCK!"
True, some players will stick to what they know and sometimes you feel bad (man) when a deck that is terribly positioned in the metagame beats your good deck. But in the grand scheme of things and over many, many games there is no way a player that has such a mindset will consistently do better than a player who possesses the needed adaptability.
I like this philosophy in principle. However, you do have to reckon with the aggro mindset, which is not very imaginative or creative. Take (as a random example) Face Punters, who appear to think something along these lines: "Hmm, the opponent just ran out Bloodmage Thalnos. Should I maybe kill it with Glaivezooka? Naahhhhh! HIT FACE! HIT FACE! HIT FACE!"
So presumably the same reasoning would apply in the wider sense. "Hmm, I'm seeing a lot of people try Paper in a vain attempt to suppress players like me. Would it maybe be strategic to switch to Scissors? Naahhhhh! ROCK! ROCK! ROCK!"
True, some players will stick to what they know and sometimes you feel bad (man) when a deck that is terribly positioned in the metagame beats your good deck. But in the grand scheme of things and over many, many games there is no way a player that has such a mindset will consistently do better than a player who possesses the needed adaptability.
which is one of the reasons why the 'aggro meta' is always at the bottom ranks, even when the legendary players say "what aggro?" I've seen months when the decks most complained about were mocked as trash by the upper ranks since only the lower ranked players use it.
There's two other reasons for the aggro meta though:
1. Ranked by design encourages aggro play. THere was a post a while back that showed that faster games that win less climb the ranks better than slower, but more effective games. Thus a face hunter that wins 60% of the time did better than a control warrior that won 65-70% of the time. This is why you see the Big Aggro Rush at the start of the season. You want to get back to your old rank as soon as possible, and that means aggro.
2. Lower ranked players do some REALLY unstable builds. A lot of them are gimmicky and, thus, have a poor start as they try to set up their EPIC WIN CONDITION!!!11 After about 5 games of folks who have not a single good move for 4 turns you go "why in the world am I not just slamming his face with small fries?" It's like a boss with a big glowing "weakpoint" spot on thier shoulder.
As said it's poor form to use a deck that's badly positioned against the metagame and to NOT use a deck that counters the meta game. Thing is, at the lower ranks, said 'best positioned deck' IS a face deck. As you get closer to rank 5, you start seeing better decks who's weak points aren't on the face at turn 1, so you're better off switching. Thus the line "go face until rank 5, then go control."
I like this philosophy in principle. However, you do have to reckon with the aggro mindset, which is not very imaginative or creative. Take (as a random example) Face Punters, who appear to think something along these lines: "Hmm, the opponent just ran out Bloodmage Thalnos. Should I maybe kill it with Glaivezooka? Naahhhhh! HIT FACE! HIT FACE! HIT FACE!"
So presumably the same reasoning would apply in the wider sense. "Hmm, I'm seeing a lot of people try Paper in a vain attempt to suppress players like me. Would it maybe be strategic to switch to Scissors? Naahhhhh! ROCK! ROCK! ROCK!"
True, some players will stick to what they know and sometimes you feel bad (man) when a deck that is terribly positioned in the metagame beats your good deck. But in the grand scheme of things and over many, many games there is no way a player that has such a mindset will consistently do better than a player who possesses the needed adaptability.
which is one of the reasons why the 'aggro meta' is always at the bottom ranks, even when the legendary players say "what aggro?" I've seen months when the decks most complained about were mocked as trash by the upper ranks since only the lower ranked players use it.
There's two other reasons for the aggro meta though:
1. Ranked by design encourages aggro play. THere was a post a while back that showed that faster games that win less climb the ranks better than slower, but more effective games. Thus a face hunter that wins 60% of the time did better than a control warrior that won 65-70% of the time. This is why you see the Big Aggro Rush at the start of the season. You want to get back to your old rank as soon as possible, and that means aggro.
2. Lower ranked players do some REALLY unstable builds. A lot of them are gimmicky and, thus, have a poor start as they try to set up their EPIC WIN CONDITION!!!11 After about 5 games of folks who have not a single good move for 4 turns you go "why in the world am I not just slamming his face with small fries?" It's like a boss with a big glowing "weakpoint" spot on thier shoulder.
As said it's poor form to use a deck that's badly positioned against the metagame and to NOT use a deck that counters the meta game. Thing is, at the lower ranks, said 'best positioned deck' IS a face deck. As you get closer to rank 5, you start seeing better decks who's weak points aren't on the face at turn 1, so you're better off switching. Thus the line "go face until rank 5, then go control."
While I don't agree with your deck lists I do agree with your sentiment, none of the anti-aggro cards in TGT are going to force the game to slow down as much as Sludge Belcher or Antique Healbot because the set is slow in and of itself. Master Jouster and Tuskar Jouster aren't significantly better than Sunwalker and Antique Heabot and have a % chance to fail. So the most relevant additions are Paladin and Shaman's new sweepers Enter the Coliseum and Elemental Destruction and fringe considerations like Chillmaw and Twilight Guardian in Dragon decks or Bolf Ramshield as the 3rd Antique Healbot. Healing Wave to me is another bad healing card that wont be played, even with the % chance to double the healing I don't think it's a significant improvement over Antique Healbot and there's no gurantee that Shaman will even be viable.
Now compare that to Argent Horserider, which is a possible replacement for Wolfrider in Face Hunter and a definite choice for aggro Paladin and Rogue to take advantage of Blessing of MIght and Cold Blood. Then compare it to Lance Carrier, which extends the reach of Argent Squire and Shielded Mini-Bot. Once you look at the class improvements for aggro, like Mages getting Polymorph: Boar a card that either silences Sludge Belcher or goes face. Paladins getting Seal of Champions a card that lets you play Southsea Deckhand + Seal of Champions on T4 for a 5/1 Charge Divine Shield right after a Muster for Battle. Warlocks getting Wrathguard which lets them play more aggressive forms of Zoo and you do really kind of have to wonder whether or not things are going to slow down or not.
So Paladin and Shaman get a 3rd Sweeper, Dragon decks get 3 Dragon specific taunts that just replace Sludge Belcher and Bolf Ramshield is a 3rd Antique Healbot that can be Silenced, something tells me Facehunter is more worried about Varian Wrynn giving Control Warrior the edge vs Handlock than anything else. Aggro isn't going anywhere, IMO.
The aggro decks will remain to stay and in fact it might be added if pirate rogue deck becomes a thing , in which i highly doubt but hopeful to see play.
And same goes to control decks and im pretty much sure that Dragon Priest and Warrior will have a viable deck
I don't really care if it slows down or not but it would be great to have ALOT of viable decks in each class , variety is awesome
The card thatll shine here is Tuskar Vendor. 4 heal is almost a whole skillcommand with tempo and a body that can at least clear 2 minions, add healbot into the mix and facehunter winrate will drop to like 40% where it belongs. however those tech cards are bad vs. control so you will need to find a good mixture and thats game balance.
Also agro realy didnt get a push in this set. Besides Argent Horserider there is not much for fast decks.
Also with a 2,4 Taunt Priest dragon might be playable and when Priest becomes meta, aggro will be gone anyway.
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Looking at the aggro options, they look way more appealing. I mean healing wave is the only card that will actually slow down the game. Tuskar jouster heals for 1 less and stats are irrelevant for the aggro player on turn 5. Anyway, I put together a few aggro decks, but looking at that warlock deck, it just seems insane. I expect zoo to be top tier again.
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Seems like you worked on that real hard. It'll speed up, slow down, or keep the meta the same (aka we can't know yet). I had similar concerns to your thoughts after reading through the card announcements. We'll have to wait and see how it affects the meta. Joust and inspire seem to be very slow mechanics, but could have broader effects that none of us see yet. Personally, I'm mostly excited for a few dragon cards that seem to make a few classes able to now run a mid+ range dragon control (priest and warrior in particularly).
m8 you only added in like 2 or 3 cards in each just saying
There has to be something better than King's Elekk to include in the Beast deck. I would almost prefer 1 Dire Wolf Alpha and 1 Scavenging Hyena, or maybe just the 2 Hyenas... You're going to win the King's Elekk joust maybe 1/3 of the time... Actually, maybe just 1 Hyena and 1 Bear Trap? That card is really nice value for a 2 drop; you could even include 2 of them.
I agree with OP. Shaman gets one heal spell. Priest got one. And two taunt dragons. I think inspire is a joke. No control deck will survive long enough vs aggro to get value out of that. Zombie chow and ancient healbot are still the best anti-aggro tools. This expansion is a joke. Lots of expensive legendaries that noone can use because they already died turn 6.
Why would I choose an Argent Horserider over a Wolfrider in a face huter deck
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Shaman also gets a 2 mana 3/4 and the totemic
Hearthstone works as a rock, paper, scissors game. TGT brings new cards, new mechanics and new synergies. Yes, the aggro decks wills improve. But so will the control decks, not to mention completely new decks that will influence the meta.
As we've seen from Blackrock Mountain (Emperor Thaurissan and Grim Patron) new decks can rise with the addition of one or two cards. Grim Patron and Malylock, two of the best decks out there today, did not exists before Blackrock Mountain.
If aggro decks infest the meta, the meta will balance itself. That's the beauty of Hearthstone (and the comparison to rock, paper, scissors). If a lot of people are picking rock, eventually people start picking paper, and rock will no longer be a good choice of weapon. There's enough powerful healing and removal in the game. Whether you should play it depends on the metagame.
No. There's rock scissors paper and bazooka. Everyone's gonna pick bazooka because the other three can't beat bazooka.
Alright, beast hunter is kind of mediocre. I just carried away while making the deck. I really just included it for fun. It isn't an aggro deck.
Still will speed up those deck won't they? I mean undertaker was only a 1 card change for zoo and that was enough to make it top tier.
I thought about Scavenging but I reconsidered. Too situational for me.
It doesn't matter what you play on turn 2 because it will most likely die. Might as well have a bloodfen raptor that draws you 1/3 of the time. I don't see bear trap being superior to snake trap. Also, it is even more unlikely to activate. With snake, it is because they must trade. They don't have to hit your face for bear trap.
Because, it does more damage over time. Wolf rider dies the turn it's played dealing 3 damage. Argent lives and does 4 damage.
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Guess many people have high hopes for the Joust mechanic. We won't have to wait long to find out how the meta will change.
BTW yeah Beast Hunter ain't evil.
It I disagree with the Bear Trap comment. Snake Trap you want to trigger in a position that is comfortable for you. Leokk and Knife Juggler are pretty bad when they gain Snakes afterwards. With a Juggler on board, do I want to hit Juggler to risk 3 knives, or do I test face and risk a juggle plus a mentionable taunt. With a 2/2 minion both scenes can go horribly wrong.
And, you use your shitty minion to see if face has Explosive trap. You don't do it first with a 3 health minion though because it also could be Freezing. Bear trap will mix that up pretty nicely - I imagine. It's a beast. Grizzly won't die to early game weapons, can't be traded with Haunted Creeper or Dudes. And it just got one mana cheaper in that context.
True, some players will stick to what they know and sometimes you feel bad (man) when a deck that is terribly positioned in the metagame beats your good deck. But in the grand scheme of things and over many, many games there is no way a player that has such a mindset will consistently do better than a player who possesses the needed adaptability.
which is one of the reasons why the 'aggro meta' is always at the bottom ranks, even when the legendary players say "what aggro?" I've seen months when the decks most complained about were mocked as trash by the upper ranks since only the lower ranked players use it.
There's two other reasons for the aggro meta though:
1. Ranked by design encourages aggro play. THere was a post a while back that showed that faster games that win less climb the ranks better than slower, but more effective games. Thus a face hunter that wins 60% of the time did better than a control warrior that won 65-70% of the time. This is why you see the Big Aggro Rush at the start of the season. You want to get back to your old rank as soon as possible, and that means aggro.
2. Lower ranked players do some REALLY unstable builds. A lot of them are gimmicky and, thus, have a poor start as they try to set up their EPIC WIN CONDITION!!!11 After about 5 games of folks who have not a single good move for 4 turns you go "why in the world am I not just slamming his face with small fries?" It's like a boss with a big glowing "weakpoint" spot on thier shoulder.
As said it's poor form to use a deck that's badly positioned against the metagame and to NOT use a deck that counters the meta game. Thing is, at the lower ranks, said 'best positioned deck' IS a face deck. As you get closer to rank 5, you start seeing better decks who's weak points aren't on the face at turn 1, so you're better off switching. Thus the line "go face until rank 5, then go control."
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While I don't agree with your deck lists I do agree with your sentiment, none of the anti-aggro cards in TGT are going to force the game to slow down as much as Sludge Belcher or Antique Healbot because the set is slow in and of itself. Master Jouster and Tuskar Jouster aren't significantly better than Sunwalker and Antique Heabot and have a % chance to fail. So the most relevant additions are Paladin and Shaman's new sweepers Enter the Coliseum and Elemental Destruction and fringe considerations like Chillmaw and Twilight Guardian in Dragon decks or Bolf Ramshield as the 3rd Antique Healbot. Healing Wave to me is another bad healing card that wont be played, even with the % chance to double the healing I don't think it's a significant improvement over Antique Healbot and there's no gurantee that Shaman will even be viable.
Now compare that to Argent Horserider, which is a possible replacement for Wolfrider in Face Hunter and a definite choice for aggro Paladin and Rogue to take advantage of Blessing of MIght and Cold Blood. Then compare it to Lance Carrier, which extends the reach of Argent Squire and Shielded Mini-Bot. Once you look at the class improvements for aggro, like Mages getting Polymorph: Boar a card that either silences Sludge Belcher or goes face. Paladins getting Seal of Champions a card that lets you play Southsea Deckhand + Seal of Champions on T4 for a 5/1 Charge Divine Shield right after a Muster for Battle. Warlocks getting Wrathguard which lets them play more aggressive forms of Zoo and you do really kind of have to wonder whether or not things are going to slow down or not.
So Paladin and Shaman get a 3rd Sweeper, Dragon decks get 3 Dragon specific taunts that just replace Sludge Belcher and Bolf Ramshield is a 3rd Antique Healbot that can be Silenced, something tells me Facehunter is more worried about Varian Wrynn giving Control Warrior the edge vs Handlock than anything else. Aggro isn't going anywhere, IMO.
Never said anything, Meta will hopefully slow down, if not, I crush aggro decks because they are mostly played by bad players. Can stay if they want
This is not Eboladin. Hobgoblin version is Eboladin.
The aggro decks will remain to stay and in fact it might be added if pirate rogue deck becomes a thing , in which i highly doubt but hopeful to see play.
And same goes to control decks and im pretty much sure that Dragon Priest and Warrior will have a viable deck
I don't really care if it slows down or not but it would be great to have ALOT of viable decks in each class , variety is awesome
The card thatll shine here is Tuskar Vendor. 4 heal is almost a whole skillcommand with tempo and a body that can at least clear 2 minions, add healbot into the mix and facehunter winrate will drop to like 40% where it belongs. however those tech cards are bad vs. control so you will need to find a good mixture and thats game balance.
Also agro realy didnt get a push in this set. Besides Argent Horserider there is not much for fast decks.
Also with a 2,4 Taunt Priest dragon might be playable and when Priest becomes meta, aggro will be gone anyway.