Many of us are already familiar with The Coin. There has been a bit of rage on the official forums about it recently, saying that it's too powerful and flawed at the same time. I thought I'd drop a thread here and see what others think of it.
The main comments I've seen have been that it's too strong an advantage for the player that goes second, as giving them that bonus mana crystal to use whenever they like is too flexible. Especially when many players don't have anything to play on turn 1 if they go first, or don't want to (tactically) as it's often a bad play. This almost makes going first not much of an advantage anyway.
It has also been mentioned that the coin being awarded as a card is a bad move, as it can trigger a mage's Counterspell when played, which shouldn't happen.
My opinion, for what it's worth, is that it is too powerful. To be able to carry it through and use it whenever you like seems too strong and a tactical advantage waiting to be played. This is even more so when the player that goes first doesn't always seem to have a stronger advantage for going first, if not being at a disadvantage due to passing the first go more often than not, with the player going second having the option of starting with two mana, bypassing that weak one mana turn altogether.
Discuss :)
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"I should have done it all so differently, but I'm just me." - Evergrey
I agree that I'm not really a fan of the current system. It rewards you VERY well for going second. So much so that I usually hate going first, I very rarely can do anything meaningful and usually end up just passing the turn to the person going second.
If they only had 3 cards and then DREW their 4th card (along with getting the Coin) I think it would be a bit more balanced...but right now it's just silly.
Its my opinion that player 2 gets an advantage right now. Especially if they are a rogue. An extra card plus a free mana to play is a tad overpowered.
At the very least I'd like to see the coin not be counted as an actual card. Combos shouldnt be even more powerful and easier to play just because you were lucky enough to go second.
Right now from what I've seen, it seems like going second is much better than going first. Granted, I don't have the first hand experience but that's what it seems like so far.
I think the mechanic 1 more mana at will is fine. In alot of card games it sucks going 2nd and few ways have really fixed this but I think the coin being a card is an issue. It makes it to powerfull with stuff like rogue combo, early azure drakes and even early mountain giants to an extent. I dont think its broken and tbh I think if blizzard did nothing then the diffrence in win rate would slowly move towards 50/50 (if its not already that) since people learn to deal with it in time.
My main problem is that I feel like its very powerfull but I have yet to see any stats on winrate so its hard to tell.
I honestly don't see why getting an extra card isn't enough? I mean you can do some pretty interesting things with the coin, but it just seems like too much especially since it is considered a card and can be used in rogue combos.
If its point is countering momentum gained from a player going first, i think it does its job well. Do I think it needs to count as a spell? Well I would be lying if that I played a late The Coin to proc an ability like Gadgetzan Auctioneer didnt feel a little like cheating, but I think mechanics wise I it has to count as a spell.
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Nozdormu wins you every game where you opponent has to go to the bathroom on turn 9.
The Coin is usually not overpowered or unfair, but in some instances it can be gamebreaking. One example would be using it on turn 1 to summon a pint sized summoner, a 2/2 on turn 1 which makes your next summon cost 2 less. There are not many cards to eliminate a minion with this strong an effect and 2 life when you only have 2 mana available. The few that come to my mind are lightning bolt for shamans and arcane shot for hunters, although I am sure there are a couple more instances. Another instance of it being overpowered is in an early rush deck, for example a murloc oriented deck. Or in any shaman deck which carries Feral Spirits, a 3 mana cost card that summons two 2/3 taunts for only an overload of 2 next turn. Getting Feral Spirits out on turn 2 with the coin is outrageous and incredibly annoying to deal with.
Again, generally it is not too strong but if you grab the perfect starting hand for it things can become a bit unfair. But that is just my two cents.
Agree with everyone stating that it should not count as a card/spell for gameplay- an idea to deal with mana advantage is player one gets the coin after it is used by player two then it disappears.
Agree with everyone stating that it should not count as a card/spell for gameplay- an idea to deal with mana advantage is player one gets the coin after it is used by player two then it disappears.
They could just make it a button that pops up next to your hero power and disappears after one use. This way they can make it not count as a card played without confusing people as to why it didn't count.
Wow, good discussion going and front page link *feels chuffed* :D
I have to admit that I've got no suggestion about what could be done about the coin, though I do agree that it's a fairer alternative than the previous +5 health. I've not played the game yet, but it does seem that the a lot of players skip the first go without doing anything. I've also seen it appear in tips several times that it's often a bad move to play the first minion on turn one as it's too easily dealt with. Both good reasons that the first move isn't an advantage. It might become an advantage later on, as you'll get the increase in mana before your opponent, but rewarding your opponent with a flexible +1 mana boost outweighs that advantage tactically.
It's the flexible nature of the coin that I believe makes it too strong, but I can't think of any way to make it fixed and stay fair.
To those that play other CCG/TCGs - what have they used in the past, or use now to solve the first turn problem? Just hunting for ideas to see how the Coin balances with other games.
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"I should have done it all so differently, but I'm just me." - Evergrey
There is a bunch of plays you can make even with 1 mana (consider druid and innervate).
To keep the discussion going and I my disagreement visible - I am calling bull on that statement. Ok, consider you are not the only class that manipulates the amount of mana you have - lets say you are playing control and tempo is playing first. The coin can keep you competitive in the early stages of the game, rather than being roflstomped on turn 4.
At 1 mana, there are few significant plays but gives the first player advantage in the fact they get to 2 mana first, if playing tempo may play a beater on turn 1 as well, which can start hitting next turn. At 2 mana there are more options for every class and first to 3 mana start makes signifcant plays.
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Nozdormu wins you every game where you opponent has to go to the bathroom on turn 9.
Beta is very new, and I think the best way to establish how strong/weak the coin is would be to look at numbers. Internally the dev's must have some way to see the win/loose ratio of going first and going second.
If players 2 has an average 60% win rate, while player 1 has 40%, well then the coin is too strong. If it's vice versa, well then it's too weak. Prime spot is 50%, I'd say 48/52 is about acceptable at release. I think this is the best way to establish the coins impact, rather than speculating in scenarios where it's overpowered/underpowered.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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Many of us are already familiar with The Coin. There has been a bit of rage on the official forums about it recently, saying that it's too powerful and flawed at the same time. I thought I'd drop a thread here and see what others think of it.
The main comments I've seen have been that it's too strong an advantage for the player that goes second, as giving them that bonus mana crystal to use whenever they like is too flexible. Especially when many players don't have anything to play on turn 1 if they go first, or don't want to (tactically) as it's often a bad play. This almost makes going first not much of an advantage anyway.
It has also been mentioned that the coin being awarded as a card is a bad move, as it can trigger a mage's Counterspell when played, which shouldn't happen.
My opinion, for what it's worth, is that it is too powerful. To be able to carry it through and use it whenever you like seems too strong and a tactical advantage waiting to be played. This is even more so when the player that goes first doesn't always seem to have a stronger advantage for going first, if not being at a disadvantage due to passing the first go more often than not, with the player going second having the option of starting with two mana, bypassing that weak one mana turn altogether.
Discuss :)
"I should have done it all so differently, but I'm just me." - Evergrey
I agree that I'm not really a fan of the current system. It rewards you VERY well for going second. So much so that I usually hate going first, I very rarely can do anything meaningful and usually end up just passing the turn to the person going second.
If they only had 3 cards and then DREW their 4th card (along with getting the Coin) I think it would be a bit more balanced...but right now it's just silly.
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some plays only really work if you start first.
You can more or less make sure a one drop gets to do something.
For example with mark of nature on turn two you can do alot of hurt before they can actually counter it without spending their coin.
Its my opinion that player 2 gets an advantage right now. Especially if they are a rogue. An extra card plus a free mana to play is a tad overpowered.
At the very least I'd like to see the coin not be counted as an actual card. Combos shouldnt be even more powerful and easier to play just because you were lucky enough to go second.
I think the only thing that needs to be fixed is if you win the coin toss, you can choose 1st or 2nd.
Nozdormu wins you every game where you opponent has to go to the bathroom on turn 9.
Right now from what I've seen, it seems like going second is much better than going first. Granted, I don't have the first hand experience but that's what it seems like so far.
Who isn't going to pick second at the moment though? I know I would basically every game...
Corrupted Djinn will make all your wishes come true
Vote for Corrupted Djinn in the Card Competition!
Also, btw i see it as a path to get 4-6 mana rather than a first turn 2 mana.
Nozdormu wins you every game where you opponent has to go to the bathroom on turn 9.
I think the mechanic 1 more mana at will is fine. In alot of card games it sucks going 2nd and few ways have really fixed this but I think the coin being a card is an issue. It makes it to powerfull with stuff like rogue combo, early azure drakes and even early mountain giants to an extent. I dont think its broken and tbh I think if blizzard did nothing then the diffrence in win rate would slowly move towards 50/50 (if its not already that) since people learn to deal with it in time.
My main problem is that I feel like its very powerfull but I have yet to see any stats on winrate so its hard to tell.
I honestly don't see why getting an extra card isn't enough? I mean you can do some pretty interesting things with the coin, but it just seems like too much especially since it is considered a card and can be used in rogue combos.
The coin makes for some fairly interesting play, anyways I like it better than some of the other things they had in alpha.
Yea I like it a lot better then the second player having an extra 5 health.
the idea is ok, but need to be forced on use at the turn u get it or something and should not count as a card to activates Rogue combos
If its point is countering momentum gained from a player going first, i think it does its job well.
Do I think it needs to count as a spell? Well I would be lying if that I played a late The Coin to proc an ability like Gadgetzan Auctioneer didnt feel a little like cheating, but I think mechanics wise I it has to count as a spell.
Nozdormu wins you every game where you opponent has to go to the bathroom on turn 9.
The Coin is usually not overpowered or unfair, but in some instances it can be gamebreaking. One example would be using it on turn 1 to summon a pint sized summoner, a 2/2 on turn 1 which makes your next summon cost 2 less. There are not many cards to eliminate a minion with this strong an effect and 2 life when you only have 2 mana available. The few that come to my mind are lightning bolt for shamans and arcane shot for hunters, although I am sure there are a couple more instances. Another instance of it being overpowered is in an early rush deck, for example a murloc oriented deck. Or in any shaman deck which carries Feral Spirits, a 3 mana cost card that summons two 2/3 taunts for only an overload of 2 next turn. Getting Feral Spirits out on turn 2 with the coin is outrageous and incredibly annoying to deal with.
Again, generally it is not too strong but if you grab the perfect starting hand for it things can become a bit unfair. But that is just my two cents.
Agree with everyone stating that it should not count as a card/spell for gameplay- an idea to deal with mana advantage is player one gets the coin after it is used by player two then it disappears.
They could just make it a button that pops up next to your hero power and disappears after one use. This way they can make it not count as a card played without confusing people as to why it didn't count.
Wow, good discussion going and front page link *feels chuffed* :D
I have to admit that I've got no suggestion about what could be done about the coin, though I do agree that it's a fairer alternative than the previous +5 health. I've not played the game yet, but it does seem that the a lot of players skip the first go without doing anything. I've also seen it appear in tips several times that it's often a bad move to play the first minion on turn one as it's too easily dealt with. Both good reasons that the first move isn't an advantage. It might become an advantage later on, as you'll get the increase in mana before your opponent, but rewarding your opponent with a flexible +1 mana boost outweighs that advantage tactically.
It's the flexible nature of the coin that I believe makes it too strong, but I can't think of any way to make it fixed and stay fair.
To those that play other CCG/TCGs - what have they used in the past, or use now to solve the first turn problem? Just hunting for ideas to see how the Coin balances with other games.
"I should have done it all so differently, but I'm just me." - Evergrey
To keep the discussion going and I my disagreement visible - I am calling bull on that statement.
Ok, consider you are not the only class that manipulates the amount of mana you have - lets say you are playing control and tempo is playing first. The coin can keep you competitive in the early stages of the game, rather than being roflstomped on turn 4.
At 1 mana, there are few significant plays but gives the first player advantage in the fact they get to 2 mana first, if playing tempo may play a beater on turn 1 as well, which can start hitting next turn. At 2 mana there are more options for every class and first to 3 mana start makes signifcant plays.
Nozdormu wins you every game where you opponent has to go to the bathroom on turn 9.
Beta is very new, and I think the best way to establish how strong/weak the coin is would be to look at numbers. Internally the dev's must have some way to see the win/loose ratio of going first and going second.
If players 2 has an average 60% win rate, while player 1 has 40%, well then the coin is too strong. If it's vice versa, well then it's too weak.
Prime spot is 50%, I'd say 48/52 is about acceptable at release.
I think this is the best way to establish the coins impact, rather than speculating in scenarios where it's overpowered/underpowered.