Hearthpwn

As the title implies i think we dont have good answers against aggro.The problem with the current anti aggro tech cards are that are either dead cards vs control and mid range or even a disadvantage.While i think aggro style is necesarry and should exist,its way to powerfull and simplistic.Players will defend it cause because they like cheaps wins and to tell the truth isnt the aggro decks themselves the problem but the lack of good answers to them.I reached legend last season and i reach always ranks 5-1.I am not saying that i am pro because i obviously i am not but i  have a rather good knowledge of the game.What control decks luck(my favourite type of decks) is anti aggro cards that  dont make you shot your foot against other types of deck and slowly but gradually built you win conditions.I will try to explain why most anti aggro tech cards are bad at least imo.

Firstly the good anti aggro cards we have are

Zombie chow :The king of anti aggro and it's great when you have it early in the game.Useless when it comes later and generally an mediocore overall card but  it gets the job done

Sludge belcher:While it cost 5 mana it's the best taunt in the game,great at defending you against a bunch of smaller minions.

And that's it......Those are the good neutral anti aggro cards we have,the rest are garbage 

Uselless anti aggro cards

Deathlord:2-8 health with taunt useless?Are you stupid bruh?Well it is.While is good against face decks it's a worst than a dead card against everything else.Even against face decks is very good but not great because it will soak 1-2 chargers + weapons and will bring another one in the enemy board when it dies.The only class that can use it efficiently is priest.

Explosive sheep: Ultra useless card.The problem with this card is that only mage can activate the turn that it's played without burning an extra card to do it.Even then it's a 4 mana(cost+hero power) consecration that doesnt hits the enemy's hero but your own minions as well.Every other class has to use 2 cards to do it or just simply put it on board and waiting the enemy to silence it or just ingoring it and smorc you. 

Annoy-o-Tron: It's not as bad as the previous cards but it's not good either unless you play a mech deck.It will soak 2 attacks from smaller minions and then die while not killing anything most of the times.Most aggro minions have 2 health anyway.

Unstable ghoul:Warrior says hi :D Seriously this card is like pressing concede against warrior(patron+control) and  doesnt do much against anything else. As 1/3  it will die to almost anything and do 1 damage to the rest of minions.Even pure face decks wont give a shit about it because most aggro minions have 2 health or divine shield(aggro pally yeaay) .

I mentioned only neutral cards because they are the core of the game.Also i think it's rather unfair that we have to tech bad cards in control decks just not istant lose against aggro while aggro decks dont have to do the same.Anyway thanks for reading and have a nice day.

I'm confused about the last point. You want aggro to have to tech against aggro? Do you feel the same about other "mirror" matchups? 

Also tbh, if decent control was viable for cheap you'd probably see more of it. Unless people dish out some serious mullah (as far as computer game prices go), even half-decent control decks are a long, long way down the grind for most players.

 That said, this seems like a legit constructive thread. So thanks for that.

I was trying to say that aggro doesnt tech against mid range or control.There isnt a good anti aggro card that will make a face deck say''oh look i have to put this x card to my deck otherwise that anti aggro card will  ruin my game'' For control players though thats the norm.

Also i know that control decks are expensive.As a f2p it took me more that 4 months to built the deck i wanted but i dont mind that the majority of decks that i play against are aggro or aggroish  mid range (even in legendary rank :D).What bothers me is that we dont have decent answers to them.That will make the game more intresting and fun.Aggro doesnt have to be coin flip as it is now.

You are most welcome :)

Agreed. Aggro is favored too much. In terms of freedom when creating a deck, no neccessary tech cards to counter other decks, fast games to earn gold. Which is pretty much in aggro' nature. Still sucks though for it doesn't encourage people switching to another play style.

The only good thing about aggro is that the games end fast if I lose.

Here's what I've been proposing for a while: it's not necessarily that aggro is too good or that it's better than control. The problem is there is currently no card that punishes charge minions. Think about it, we have minions that punish spell casting, taunts, deathrattles, weapons, battlecrys, low atk, high atk, rarity and even divine shield. Why is there nothing which punishes charge? I don't understand that at all. This game should have had a neutral card that did that from the start.

Quote from jainaishot jump

I was trying to say that aggro doesnt tech against mid range or control.There isnt a good anti aggro card that will make a face deck say''oh look i have to put this x card to my deck otherwise that anti aggro card will  ruin my game'' For control players though thats the norm.

Also i know that control decks are expensive.As a f2p it took me more that 4 months to built the deck i wanted but i dont mind that the majority of decks that i play against are aggro or aggroish  mid range (even in legendary rank :D).What bothers me is that we dont have decent answers to them.That will make the game more intresting and fun.Aggro doesnt have to be coin flip as it is now.

You are most welcome :)

 

Well, aggro decks are naturally teched against control. The entire's decks premise is that you have oodles of cheap cards. So that criticism is a bit unfair; it's a bit like saying control should have to tech in survival. Balance in HS is made after the rock-paper-scissors logic, not overall balance vs "any given deck". Which is good; it makes HS strategy dynamic, this would be a very boring game otherwise.

This game is designed to be fast.  Fast decks have been solidified in the meta for a couple expansions now.  The issue isn't with "accidentally" having too many good aggro minions, the issue is with players expecting this game to be something it's not.  That's not a defense of the game, per se; if you don't like rush hunter and similar decks, the best thing you can do is not buy the next expansion or switch to another game entirely.  That forces Blizzard to evolve their design.  At the end of the day they are a company selling a card game, and they will do what's best for the bottom line.  They think quick games that end by turn 6 is best for their bottom line because they think there are more players who want that than who want slow, calculated, meticulous games that go for 15+ turns.  They may be right - in which case you may be forced to find a new game if that's what you're looking for - but maybe they'll find out they're wrong if enough people put pressure on them.

Quote from GG_Garrison jump

• healing in the current meta: Antique Healbot 
• deathrattle: Earth Shock - Hex best deathrattle counters since the old ages
• taunt wall: Earth Elemental - Feral Spirit
• anti swarm: Forked Lightning - Lightning Storm

I still believe if you want to create an anti-aggro deck on the cheap side, shaman can do the job. The real problem is that you should commit to much to kill them aggros that you wouldn't kill anyone else.

 Yeah and overload doesn't really help either. Also, the times Lightning Storm leaves minion at 1 health is just stupid. Killing your own Explosive Sheep is cheaper for it doesn't come with overload and those two damage are guaranteed.

Quote from GG_Garrison jump

• healing in the current meta: Antique Healbot 
• deathrattle: Earth Shock - Hex best deathrattle counters since the old ages
• taunt wall: Earth Elemental - Feral Spirit
• anti swarm: Forked Lightning - Lightning Storm

I still believe if you want to create an anti-aggro deck on the cheap side, shaman can do the job. The real problem is that you should commit to much to kill them aggros that you wouldn't kill anyone else.

 As someone who routinely tries to build anti-aggro decks on my mage, the biggest problem with anti-aggro decks is the incredibly small window you have to draw cards that will keep you in the game. You have to draw well just to have a fighting chance while the aggro decks don't. Even if you do draw your healbot or whatever in the first couple rounds to counter the early onslaught, you have to continue to draw well enough to make it to the late game.

It's just broken, imo. It makes it feel like you aren't even playing against your opponent, instead it feels like you're playing against the draw of the deck.

Quote from LambMine jump

Quote from GG_Garrison jump

• healing in the current meta: Antique Healbot 
• deathrattle: Earth Shock - Hex best deathrattle counters since the old ages
• taunt wall: Earth Elemental - Feral Spirit
• anti swarm: Forked Lightning - Lightning Storm

I still believe if you want to create an anti-aggro deck on the cheap side, shaman can do the job. The real problem is that you should commit to much to kill them aggros that you wouldn't kill anyone else.

 As someone who routinely tries to build anti-aggro decks on my mage, the biggest problem with anti-aggro decks is the incredibly small window you have to draw cards that will keep you in the game. You have to draw well just to have a fighting chance while the aggro decks don't. Even if you do draw your healbot or whatever in the first couple rounds to counter the early onslaught, you have to continue to draw well enough to make it to the late game.

It's just broken, imo. It makes it feel like you aren't even playing against your opponent, instead it feels like you're playing against the draw of the deck.

 

 This is so true because we haven't  good answers for aggro but many bad ones .What we do have are removals and crappy anti aggro cards so we dont need to draw one of them but many of them just to stand a chance.I am not a game designer but i would love to see a mini blecher 3 mana for 2/3 taunt with  deathrattle summon 1/2 taunt,or a 0/1 taunt with dearthrattle deal 2 damage to all minions for 2 mana, or 0/3 taunt with deathrattle silence all minions for 3 mana. Some cards that unless are silenced will give you a breathing room to work on your winning strategy.I think that will make the game harder but more enjoyable for aggro players too since they will have to think how to play around them and not just vommiting damage to the enemy hero

Quote from Piterik jump

or enlarging HP Pool to 40-50

  It would solve some problems, but it will also make some games fatigue a lot easier and favor specific cards (Alexzstraza) for health reset/regain.

Quote from H2050 jump

Basically we need more taunters on every mana. A good 3 mana taunt goes a long way.

 Deathlord's ineffectiveness should be evidence that a few taunt cards aren't what is needed to balance the aggro.

Silverback Patriarch

Ironfur Grizzly

Not sure if troll or completely forgot about the basic cards. These cards are basic and they have the exact vanilla stats for a Taunter 3 Mana (Patriarch has that -1 probably because Blizz didn't want him to be able to trade while outtrading most 2-3 drops) 2/6 would be too op statwise.

Agreed...I think one of the major problems is Taunt being silencable...I mean you ask a 5 mana sludge and face hunter plays a 2 mana owl and you're dead.

We need maybe a new mechanic where Taunt minion cannot be targeted by other minion.

Another suggestion might be something that deals 1 damage to minions attacking you....e.g. Druid - Thorn Armor - Equal just like weapon and has X charges.....whenever a minion attacks you, remove 1 charge and deal 1 damage to that minion before you receive damage.

Aggro is just too disgusting at the moment.

Well I'm not the pro that reached legend multiple times, as I've never achieved such a thing but I always finish the season in ranks 5-3 so I can say I'm somewhat experienced about this kind of topic. I think aggro is fine right now generally, if you're talking about all the classes. Nearly all classes do have the early pressure to push aggro back, or at least enough sustain to handle the aggro threat until they get the mana pool to deal with them. But Shaman and Druid doesn't have that, at least not as good as other classes do.

Shaman has an RNG AoE for 3+2 mana which doesn't hit face. Compared to Paladin's Concentrate, Lightning Storm can punish the player just by not being guaranteed to hit exact 3 damage and screwing your tempo. On the other hand, Druids are too slow early and they got the out-tempo'ing mechanic to turn the tides mid-game to have better late game, but against aggro late game is nonsense and if the aggro deck you face uses some spells as well, chances you lose are doubled. Druid might have a sick, frustrating combo but that doesn't even win you games if you at least don't have a board, or unless you dealt enough damage to pull your opponent down to 14 Health threshold. This combo won't work against aggro and Druid's only board clear being Swipe and an overcosting Concentrate/Lava Burst, aka. Starfall, which doesn't even hit face at all. Well maybe aggro should be weaknesses of these two classes but Shaman is definitely the one that needs some boost to claim his seat back as a top-tier class.

As for Taunters, I remember even pros treated them as garbage back in days when Ysera was auto-win. Now every non-Aggro deck has at least one or two taunts. But do taunts always save you in an Aggro match-up? Let me analyze the sleeper cards that are actually an answer against aggro, but not very popular.

1) Arcane Nullifier X-21: Only reason this card's isn't picked over Taz'dingo is because it's outpaced by any mid-game drop and Grim Patron exists. But it's way better against Face Hunter or Zoolock because it'll be able to kill the same things as Sen'jin Shieldmasta, thus not being a target for Kill Command, Hunter's Mark or Imp-losion. There's no card that can't be silenced, so silence has the same effect on this card as any other taunter.

2) Spectral Knight I feel like this in any deck that runs Argus would be pretty damn good. Solid body that has no cons but vulnerable to silence, so does every other card.

3)Baron Geddon Never actually tried out, sounds pretty crazy and looks only viable to Warrior, if not, Druid because of early ramp power.

4)Sunwalker You only see this lady in Taunterino Drood but most of the time she should be able to 3-for-1 so why not.

5)Wild Pyromancer Priest gets nice use of this card but some other classes like Paladin used to play this card in some decks. It'd also work with Warrior as well.

6)Stampeding Kodo Solid 5 drop that has it's place taken away from him by Sludge Belcher. Mostly will do work against any match-up as almost all decks do run a couple of early game creatures. If not, go play some Pally with the old-school combo lel kek.

Yeah those are the non-used cards that still has a couple of things to say against aggro. Maybe some of them are actually pretty slow while being useful (like Kodo), but there's no reason to not to run Nullifier (depending on your match-ups) or Sunwalker.

Have a good day everyone!

Well I admit that Kodo and Knight is slow for what they do but Sunwalker and Geddon is fine I think. Mostly you won't be losing too bad to let your opponent finish the game before turn 6-7 unless they got the perfect curve that is pretty rare, Sunwalker and Geddon will always do their job, especially Geddon has the immediate effect that has a little bit of backfire. Still, most classes actually have answers early for aggro decks. Even Druid can take advantage of Anodized Robo Cub, but Shaman :'(

Quote from Piterik jump

or enlarging HP Pool to 40-50

 This would be my preferred solution. Perhaps increase deck size as well, so games won't go into fatigue too easily. 

Quote from Radikalist jump

Quote from LambMine jump

Quote from H2050 jump

Basically we need more taunters on every mana. A good 3 mana taunt goes a long way.

 Deathlord's ineffectiveness should be evidence that a few taunt cards aren't what is needed to balance the aggro.

 

What?
Deathlord is amazing versus aggro. The problem is that it sucks at pretty much all other matchups.

 I'm not sure we're playing the same game...

Play Deathlord against a Hunter: They laugh at you, silence it, then do 12 damage to your face.
Play Deathlord against a Lock: They laugh at you, siphon soul it, then play 12 minions.
Play Deathlord against a Mage: They laugh at you, fireball + (insert any of a million options), then say, "Hello" to their new Flamewaker.
Play Deathlord against... bah, you get the idea.

The card is just bad against aggro--except for priests who can buff it (in my opinion, of course), specifically because it pulls a free minion for an opponent whose strategy is based on applying a lot of pressure. It's just a giant liability in too many situations.