Rogue has been the least popular class since GvG. IMO the class suffers from two main problems: A lousy hero power and lack of card draw.
1) In theory, having your hero power give you a 1/2 weapon that can be buffed is pretty efficient. But in order to use your weapon to its fullest effect, you need to draw on your health as a resource. Playing as Rogue, I generally find that my hero power is basically useless after the first half of the game because I simply cannot risk losing any more health, especially against classes with burst damage (i.e. most of the classes). There's no point having a 3-damage or even 6-damage weapon when all the creatures with that much health also have as much, if not more, attack. And with taunts so prevalent you usually cannot just attack face (which is in any case an inefficient use of your hero power if there are still threats on the table).
2) The Rogue class thrives on combos. To pull off combos, you need to stack your deck with cheap cards and play 2 or more cards in one turn. This means that you run out of cards very fast. And yet guess what? Rogue is given the most expensive card draw in the game - Sprint (Shiv and Fan of Knives don't count since there is no net gain in cards). And because you usually only run one of it, if it is stuck in the bottom half of your deck, you're screwed. This shortcoming used to be remedied by Auctioneer (which works well with Rogue's cheap spells), but now that that is nerfed, Rogues are reduced to using Jeeves, which is not ideal.
So, to fix Rogue, Blizzard needs to find a way to make its hero more hardy (maybe a minion that renders your hero immune while attacking) and give it better card draw options.
Gnomish Experimenter: I feel like this card was made specifically for rogue. No single minion is too important for rogue, so this card works very, very well. If you draw a spell, then you just drew a spell practically for free. If you drew a chicken, then you just drew a decent combo starter.
Bloodmage Thalnos: It's 2 mana, it has a draw deathrattle and it's got spell damage. Rogue.
Sprint: Don't think of this as 'the most expensive card draw', but think of it as the card to keep in your hand when you finish your burst. Next turn, play it and you're back in the game.
Shiv, Fan of Knives: It's damage and card draw in one card; it's the essence of rogue.
So, to fix Rogue, Blizzard needs to find a way to make its hero more hardy (maybe a minion that renders your hero immune while attacking) and give it better card draw options.
Rogue needs better card draw... Can't tell if joking or not :/
Gnomish Experimenter: I feel like this card was made specifically for rogue. No single minion is too important for rogue, so this card works very, very well. If you draw a spell, then you just drew a spell practically for free. If you drew a chicken, then you just drew a decent combo starter.
Bloodmage Thalnos: It's 2 mana, it has a draw deathrattle and it's got spell damage. Rogue.
Sprint: Don't think of this as 'the most expensive card draw', but think of it as the card to keep in your hand when you finish your burst. Next turn, play it and you're back in the game.
Shiv, Fan of Knives: It's damage and card draw in one card; it's the essence of rogue.
I disagree on Gnomish Experimenter. Turning a minion into a chicken still hurts even if it is a 3-mana minion. It would be fine if Gnomish himself had competitive stats, but his stats alone are worth less than two mana (basically a Bloodfen Raptor that nobody would run). So you are paying more than 1 mana for highly risky card draw.
Novice Engineer has a worthless body, so you might as well have run the card you wanted to run instead of it. And suggesting we should run Shadowstep to use it on Novice Engineer is just ridiculous. Following that strategy, you start with two cards in hand and pay 2 mana to end up with two cards in hand, two less cards in your deck and a crappy 1/1 body on board. What a winning strategy!
so... shiv and fan of knives doesn't count... so according to your logic cantrips doesn't Count so only the damage/ armor effect or whatever is important for the Cards... even if we have some good effects they still remain cantrips. then let's see:
Paladin
Blessing of wisdom, 1 mana - unreliable in my opinion. Maximum one Card (if even that) so cantrip: doesn't Count.
hammer of wrath and holy wrath are cantrips. doesn't Count.
lay on Hand: 8 mana, 8 health, 3 Cards.
warlock
mortal coil, cantrip (and only a cantrip if it kills something) doesn't Count.
hero power: 2 mana, 2 life
sense demons: too situational or deck dependant to Count that.
Warrior
shield block, cantrip, doesn't count
slam, only a cantrip if the minion survives... according to your logic: doesn't Count.
battle rage: hard to calculate... if you have only one damaged character then it's basically a cantrip and doesn't Count.
Huntard
Tracking: draw one Card and destroy two others... shouldn't Count if we assume that cantrips don't Count because we lose 2 more Cards with this
Flare: cantrip doesn't count
call pet: cantrip doesn't count
Priest
Power word Shield: cantrip doesn't Count.
Mind Vision and thoughtsteal don't draw Cards but copy from enemy... not real a Card draw mechanic
Northshire cleric: if played correctly insane Card draw but risk of fatigue against other priests
Mage
Arcane Intellect - since cantrips doesn't Count i guess you might think you only get one Card net from it
unstable Portal: no Card draw - just create something out of it
Shaman
Far sight - cantrip
Mana Tide Totem - often only draws one Card, maybe 2... so basically a half cantrip...
Druid
Wrath: cantrip
Starfire: cantrip
Nourish: Cards net gain: two Cards (since at least one Card from playing this doesn't Count accourding to your logic
Ancient of Lore: net one Card. the Body doesn't Count since the damage from shiv and fan of knives doesn't Count as well.
Conclusion:
Rogue draws: 4 Cards... or well... 3 Cards net for 7 mana: 2,33 mana per card
Lay on Hands: 2 Cards net for 8 mana: 4 mana per Card. if we estimate that 8 health are worth 3 mana (healing touch, druid Card) then we get two Cards net for 5 mana: 2,5 mana per card
warlock: one Card for 2 mana and 2 life: 2 mana per Card... don't know how to calculate the life
warrior: no Card draw (according two your logic)... or maybe something when this and this happens. meh
huntard: no Card draw that isn't a cantrip - starving buzzard is basically dead and can be played by all classes
Priest: let's assume you get 4 Cards from her through heals... makes 4 Cards for 9 mana or maybe less (circle of healing e.g.) - 2,25 mana and even better if you have a good game.
Mage: one Card net for 3 mana through arcane intellect... 3 mana per Card? geez!
Shaman: mana Tide totem is too dependant from the board. wouldn't cout it. but somethin between 1 and 3 Cards for 3 mana... so let's say 2 mana per card
Druid: nourish: 2 Cards net for 5 mana: 2,5 per Card, ancient of lore: 1 Card net for 7(!) Mana!
so you still want to tell me, that cantrip's doesn't Count? or that the rogue has shitty Card draw mechanics...
if we only Count the "draw a Card" on his Cards then he has three... and None of These Cards are dependent of other circumstances like "if the minion survives" or "one Card per damaged friendly character"... or "discard 2 Cards"... or have to be protected with taunts and not Need to be silenced... you get what i want to tell you? you don't take in consideration how bad the other classes are and only look for direct draw and ignore the other stats and effects a Card gives you.
i mean: gnomish Inventor: 2/4 for 4 mana that draws a Card. if Carddraw is worth around 2 mana then you get a 2/4 body for 2 mana. But hey! it's a cantrip! doesn't Count.
I disagree on Gnomish Experimenter. Turning a minion into a chicken still hurts even if it is a 3-mana minion. It would be fine if Gnomish himself had competitive stats, but his stats alone are worth less than two mana (basically a Bloodfen Raptor that nobody would run). So you are paying more than 1 mana for highly risky card draw.
Novice Engineer has a worthless body, so you might as well have run the card you wanted to run instead of it. And suggesting we should run Shadowstep to use it on Novice Engineer is just ridiculous. Following that strategy, you start with two cards in hand and pay 2 mana to end up with two cards in hand, two less cards in your deck and a crappy 1/1 body on board. What a winning strategy!
The body is not the point, the point is that there is more card draw in your deck. Anyways, a 3/2 body isn't awful. The idea of rogue is to spray all of your minions onto the board, keep the cards flowing, and rush your opponents down with spells, not bodies. Check out this deck that I made specifically around this idea, and I'd say that the Gnomish Experimenter is one of the key cards of the deck:
Referring to your statement about Rogue's card draw, have you ever played any other TCGS? Because the two card combo of Prep/Sprint is easily one of the strongest in this game. In other games, MTG and Yugioh two card combos to draw cards are much more common and Prep into Sprint is the closest thing Hearthstone has to that, but is more powerful than just about any card draw engine in Hearthstone, especially in conjunction with the other rogue cards.
so... shiv and fan of knives doesn't count... so according to your logic cantrips doesn't Count so only the damage/ armor effect or whatever is important for the Cards... even if we have some good effects they still remain cantrips.
Congrats on putting a lot of effort into attacking a straw man. The reason why I dismissed Shiv and Fan of Knives is because they are overcosted for their weak effect and you wouldn't usually run them unless you are running a spell damage or miracle deck. So, you are better off running the card you actually wanted to draw in place of them. That's why the fact that they only replace themselves is a bad thing. For many of the other class cards you've mentioned, the cards themselves have useful effects in their own right.
Shiv - Deal 1 damage draw one card for two mana. Compare to Mortal Coil - Deal 1 damage draw one card if minion dies for one mana. Mortal Coil's conditional rarely sets it back since both cards are used to finish off a minion anyway. 90% of the time, Mortal Coil is plain better.
Fan of Knives - Deal 1 damage to all enemy minions draw one card for 3 mana. Compare to Arcane Explosion - Deal 1 damage to all enemy minions for 1 mana (and even then it is not good enough for mages to want to run it). You are paying 2+ mana for one card draw.
I disagree on Gnomish Experimenter. Turning a minion into a chicken still hurts even if it is a 3-mana minion. It would be fine if Gnomish himself had competitive stats, but his stats alone are worth less than two mana (basically a Bloodfen Raptor that nobody would run). So you are paying more than 1 mana for highly risky card draw.
Novice Engineer has a worthless body, so you might as well have run the card you wanted to run instead of it. And suggesting we should run Shadowstep to use it on Novice Engineer is just ridiculous. Following that strategy, you start with two cards in hand and pay 2 mana to end up with two cards in hand, two less cards in your deck and a crappy 1/1 body on board. What a winning strategy!
The body is not the point, the point is that there is more card draw in your deck. Anyways, a 3/2 body isn't awful. The idea of rogue is to spray all of your minions onto the board, keep the cards flowing, and rush your opponents down with spells, not bodies. Check out this deck that I made specifically around this idea, and I'd say that the Gnomish Experimenter is one of the key cards of the deck:
That makes no sense at all. If the body is not the point then why have that card in your deck? Instead of drawing that "pointless" body so that it could (maybe) help you draw another card that actually had a point, you would have immediately drawn the other card.
Referring to your statement about Rogue's card draw, have you ever played any other TCGS? Because the two card combo of Prep/Sprint is easily one of the strongest in this game. In other games, MTG and Yugioh two card combos to draw cards are much more common and Prep into Sprint is the closest thing Hearthstone has to that, but is more powerful than just about any card draw engine in Hearthstone, especially in conjunction with the other rogue cards.
To get that combo you need to run Prep in your deck (thereby taking up a slot for other cards) and wait till you have both cards in your hand. This simply worsens the problem that I mentioned earlier of having only one card as your source of card draw, since it might get buried beneath your deck. Now you need TWO cards to get your card draw.
so... shiv and fan of knives doesn't count... so according to your logic cantrips doesn't Count so only the damage/ armor effect or whatever is important for the Cards... even if we have some good effects they still remain cantrips.
Congrats on putting a lot of effort into attacking a straw man. The reason why I dismissed Shiv and Fan of Knives is because they are overcosted for their weak effect and you wouldn't usually run them unless you are running a spell damage or miracle deck. So, you are better off running the card you actually wanted to draw in place of them. That's why the fact that they only replace themselves is a bad thing. For many of the other class cards you've mentioned, the cards themselves have useful effects in their own right.
Shiv - Deal 1 damage draw one card for two mana. Compare to Mortal Coil - Deal 1 damage draw one card if minion dies for one mana. Mortal Coil's conditional rarely sets it back since both cards are used to finish off a minion anyway. 90% of the time, Mortal Coil is plain better.
Fan of Knives - Deal 1 damage to all enemy minions draw one card for 3 mana. Compare to Arcane Explosion - Deal 1 damage to all enemy minions for 1 mana (and even then it is not good enough for mages to want to run it). You are paying 2 mana for 1 card.
Referring to your statement about Rogue's card draw, have you ever played any other TCGS? Because the two card combo of Prep/Sprint is easily one of the strongest in this game. In other games, MTG and Yugioh two card combos to draw cards are much more common and Prep into Sprint is the closest thing Hearthstone has to that, but is more powerful than just about any card draw engine in Hearthstone, especially in conjunction with the other rogue cards.
To get that combo you need to run Prep in your deck (thereby taking up a slot for other cards) and wait till you have both cards in your hand. This simply worsens the problem that I mentioned earlier of having only one card as your source of card draw, since it might get buried beneath your deck. Now you need TWO cards to get your card draw.
so regarding your shiv example: it's not what you plan to do with your Cards. it's the Card text together with your class that defines the Price.
i mean: don't you think that it would be a Little bit unfair if a rogue would pay 1 mana to deal 1 damage and draw 1 Card without any prerequisites while the warlock has to kill something? also the warlock can only target minions while the rogue can target everything. i think this clearly better Card should cost more. fan of knives: well yeah. this one Card costs me 2 mana but again: other classes are so much worse in Card draw mechanics. Let's take warrior again: 2 mana for 2 damage and only Card draw if the enemy survives. Battle rage: one Card for two mana... IF you are damaged. more Cards only IF there are damaged minions. Mage draws two Cards for 3 mana. the rogue draws only 1 but has the Chance to damage and potentially kill a minion in the same turn (if we are in turn 3) The shaman don't has a reliable Card draw engine at all (far sight only thins out my deck and with luck let me take the three mana spent into another turn... if the drawn Card only costs 1 than i ultimatley paid more for that Card as if i had drawn it anyways...) and the totem... well... silence, damage, removal...)
Rogue is fine atm. If you are going to do some college tournaments and have to play Rogue, you can turn to the old-fashioned Backspace Burn with Sharpsword Oil. I just couldn't see other way out right at this version. In response to the poor drawing, you must employ some extreme cards like Coldlight Oracle and Sprint.
And the hero power of Rogue is not as weak as you decribe. It creates a permanent like Paladin's and Shaman's, and you can use it right away. It's weak in the late game but strong in the first half. So the only reasonable solution is to go burn and aggro so that the game is short enough.
That makes no sense at all. If the body is not the point then why have that card in your deck? Instead of drawing that "pointless" body so that it could (maybe) help you draw another card that actually had a point, you would have immediately drawn the other card.
The point is to play it as a crappy 1/1 for 2 and keep the cards flowing. The whole idea is to draw as many cards as possible. If you were to draw a body, you would just play it; that's it. If you play this, though, you could combo it with an eviscerate, questing adventurer, shadowstep, or just to straight up hurry your game.
Ok people I used to be one of u guys who feels rogue is the worst class and that since rogue got very few good new cards that class was unplayable. Last season a player hit rank 1 legend on EU server. I checked out the deck made a few changes and tested it on ladder. I have climbed from rank 11 to rank 3. Prep, Sprint, fan, and shiv give huge card draw and the tempo that can be gained using preparation is tremendous. I feel this new style of Rogue is much stronger than miracle. You can check out my decklist under my username. Trust me rogue is still quite a good class.
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Not being able to hero power as well when u have a weapon equipped is such a big handicap as well. Other classes are able to armor up heal or do some form of damage, rogue is left waiting to use the weapon before it can hero power again. It is a lousy hero power especially in late game as well it must be said.
Main problem i see is weak hero power and lousy class cards in GvG. Sure Goblin auto barber is a good card but it's a 2 mana card that really cant be used till turn 3 if u want to get the full potential out of it. Also feel like right now i am running Rag and Boom in my deck and i just dont have enough late game stuff to finish my opponent.
Rogue is just not in a great place atm and it is too weapon dependant imo, one harrison and your game can be just over where as other weapon classes can recover Rogue just dont seem to be able too have the tools to just get over the line.
While I do agree that rogue is in a bad spot right now, I certainly wouldn't pin point their hero power as one of the culprits. Card draw is an issue and I don't necessarily believe Auctioneer was nerfed just because of miracle rogue, but instead nerfed because with spare parts, it would have just turned insane and unfortunately one of the best rogue builds had to suffer because of that. With that said, I did play a couple individuals were were running an older school version of miracle with the 6 mana auctioneers and it still wasn't that bad, they just started the card draw a turn later than before, wasn't really that insanely different.
I've got to agree with Brohanro, somewhat. I actually am not a big fan of that deck (I don't like shiv/fan and would rather run Loot Hoarder and other draw) but have been experimenting with similar ideas. The biggest problem is that Rogue was the only class that needs to innovate with very little to build on. Hunter is still running agro with a deathrattle focus, Warriors are control, Warlocks are zoo and hand. Mage saw a big change but it wasn't exactly a new playstyle. It was a refining of aggro with the most obvious mechanic in GvG.
Rogues are starting from scratch and imo should create the standard for midrange decks in HS. If built correctly they can manage against aggro and burst for 15+ unexpected damage against control. That kind of potential is amazing but needs to be well refined. Look at Shaman. Rogue should be played very similar and imo have better tools to do so.
Imo rogue doesn't need a rework. Our approach to rogue needs a rework.
I disagree on Gnomish Experimenter. Turning a minion into a chicken still hurts even if it is a 3-mana minion. It would be fine if Gnomish himself had competitive stats, but his stats alone are worth less than two mana (basically a Bloodfen Raptor that nobody would run). So you are paying more than 1 mana for highly risky card draw.
Novice Engineer has a worthless body, so you might as well have run the card you wanted to run instead of it. And suggesting we should run Shadowstep to use it on Novice Engineer is just ridiculous. Following that strategy, you start with two cards in hand and pay 2 mana to end up with two cards in hand, two less cards in your deck and a crappy 1/1 body on board. What a winning strategy!
The body is not the point, the point is that there is more card draw in your deck. Anyways, a 3/2 body isn't awful. The idea of rogue is to spray all of your minions onto the board, keep the cards flowing, and rush your opponents down with spells, not bodies. Check out this deck that I made specifically around this idea, and I'd say that the Gnomish Experimenter is one of the key cards of the deck:
That is ... a very interesting deck. Given that you're the designer of the deck, could you tell me/us how good this deck have been doing? No offense but I just simply can't imagine this kind of deck works. You've 17 minions in the deck, so Gnomish Experimenter will give you a Chicken more than half of the time. You may able to make a ridiculously huge Edwin VanCleef or Questing Adventurer but the deck doesn't play Conceal means that your opponent will have initiative to remove it with his hard removal or BGH. If you don't get your VanCleef or Questing to hit your opponent's face, you have no other way to efficiently finish your opponent off. Again, I just have really hard time visioning how this deck works, but it's a really interesting concept. I think I'll give it a try to see how it works.
I've been playing around with it around ranks 8~7 and I'd say that my win ratio is around 50%-ish. There are three key minions to the deck: violet teacher, questing adventurer, and gnomish experimenter. While it may hurt to turn your violet teacher into a chicken, you're often playing so fast that you don't really care. Just finish off your opponent's minions and keep the cards drawing. Once you can manage to play a violet teacher, go hard with the spells to make tokens. Use the tokens to keep board control and give you a turn or so to plop a gadgetzan, questing adventurer, or edwin. The deck is a bit of a glass cannon, as I either win at turn 8-ish or lose to 'no deck' turn 14-ish. The hard removal of the deck btw is the Sap, as you really only need to slow the opponent down to get your final damage in.
Imo rogue doesn't need a rework. Our approach to rogue needs a rework.
So you are saying rogue is fine and that its our fault because no one managed to make a good rogue deck yet?
Maybe because its almost impossible to make a good one, the most consistent rogue deck so far is the controle token deck. But this also depends on the right draws.
I was definitely not saying it was anyones "fault". I wasn't blaming anyone. I was saying that it obviously is underpowered in the way that we are trying to use it but that there may be other ways to use it. Maybe I'm wrong and Rogue just sucks. Or maybe we are going about it all wrong and once we find our niche, we will explode. There are definitely strong cards and synergies in the Rogue cardpool and there are terrible cards, just like every other class cardpool. We are limiting ourselves if we just say its impossible to make a good deck instead of trying to find an archetype that incorporates the good cards and synergies. Right now people are saying Rogue can only be played certain ways without attempting other ways to play. I'm just saying lets give those others ways a chance before we dismiss it as impossible.
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Rogue has been the least popular class since GvG. IMO the class suffers from two main problems: A lousy hero power and lack of card draw.
1) In theory, having your hero power give you a 1/2 weapon that can be buffed is pretty efficient. But in order to use your weapon to its fullest effect, you need to draw on your health as a resource. Playing as Rogue, I generally find that my hero power is basically useless after the first half of the game because I simply cannot risk losing any more health, especially against classes with burst damage (i.e. most of the classes). There's no point having a 3-damage or even 6-damage weapon when all the creatures with that much health also have as much, if not more, attack. And with taunts so prevalent you usually cannot just attack face (which is in any case an inefficient use of your hero power if there are still threats on the table).
2) The Rogue class thrives on combos. To pull off combos, you need to stack your deck with cheap cards and play 2 or more cards in one turn. This means that you run out of cards very fast. And yet guess what? Rogue is given the most expensive card draw in the game - Sprint (Shiv and Fan of Knives don't count since there is no net gain in cards). And because you usually only run one of it, if it is stuck in the bottom half of your deck, you're screwed. This shortcoming used to be remedied by Auctioneer (which works well with Rogue's cheap spells), but now that that is nerfed, Rogues are reduced to using Jeeves, which is not ideal.
So, to fix Rogue, Blizzard needs to find a way to make its hero more hardy (maybe a minion that renders your hero immune while attacking) and give it better card draw options.
Every class eventually comes out with a good deck to battle with. Maybe give it more than a season?
If you're happy and you know it... well that's good :)
There are plenty of card draw options for rogue:
Gnomish Experimenter: I feel like this card was made specifically for rogue. No single minion is too important for rogue, so this card works very, very well. If you draw a spell, then you just drew a spell practically for free. If you drew a chicken, then you just drew a decent combo starter.
Novice Engineer: The card draw is in it's battlecry and it's 2 mana. Shadowstep.
Bloodmage Thalnos: It's 2 mana, it has a draw deathrattle and it's got spell damage. Rogue.
Sprint: Don't think of this as 'the most expensive card draw', but think of it as the card to keep in your hand when you finish your burst. Next turn, play it and you're back in the game.
Shiv, Fan of Knives: It's damage and card draw in one card; it's the essence of rogue.
Azure Drake: Spell damage and card draw.
Gadgetzan Auctioneer: It's still very good. Preparation still costs 0.
Nat Pagle: I feel like he is viable in Rogue. Just stick him on the field and see what happens.
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While I disagree with your premise, I actually think the idea of a Rogue minion that make your hero immune whilst attacking is awesome!
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Rogue needs better card draw... Can't tell if joking or not :/
Unbowed. Unbent. Unbroken.
I disagree on Gnomish Experimenter. Turning a minion into a chicken still hurts even if it is a 3-mana minion. It would be fine if Gnomish himself had competitive stats, but his stats alone are worth less than two mana (basically a Bloodfen Raptor that nobody would run). So you are paying more than 1 mana for highly risky card draw.
Novice Engineer has a worthless body, so you might as well have run the card you wanted to run instead of it. And suggesting we should run Shadowstep to use it on Novice Engineer is just ridiculous. Following that strategy, you start with two cards in hand and pay 2 mana to end up with two cards in hand, two less cards in your deck and a crappy 1/1 body on board. What a winning strategy!
so... shiv and fan of knives doesn't count... so according to your logic cantrips doesn't Count so only the damage/ armor effect or whatever is important for the Cards... even if we have some good effects they still remain cantrips. then let's see:
Conclusion:
so you still want to tell me, that cantrip's doesn't Count? or that the rogue has shitty Card draw mechanics...
if we only Count the "draw a Card" on his Cards then he has three... and None of These Cards are dependent of other circumstances like "if the minion survives" or "one Card per damaged friendly character"... or "discard 2 Cards"... or have to be protected with taunts and not Need to be silenced... you get what i want to tell you?
you don't take in consideration how bad the other classes are and only look for direct draw and ignore the other stats and effects a Card gives you.
i mean: gnomish Inventor: 2/4 for 4 mana that draws a Card. if Carddraw is worth around 2 mana then you get a 2/4 body for 2 mana. But hey! it's a cantrip! doesn't Count.
The body is not the point, the point is that there is more card draw in your deck. Anyways, a 3/2 body isn't awful. The idea of rogue is to spray all of your minions onto the board, keep the cards flowing, and rush your opponents down with spells, not bodies. Check out this deck that I made specifically around this idea, and I'd say that the Gnomish Experimenter is one of the key cards of the deck:
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Referring to your statement about Rogue's card draw, have you ever played any other TCGS? Because the two card combo of Prep/Sprint is easily one of the strongest in this game. In other games, MTG and Yugioh two card combos to draw cards are much more common and Prep into Sprint is the closest thing Hearthstone has to that, but is more powerful than just about any card draw engine in Hearthstone, especially in conjunction with the other rogue cards.
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Congrats on putting a lot of effort into attacking a straw man. The reason why I dismissed Shiv and Fan of Knives is because they are overcosted for their weak effect and you wouldn't usually run them unless you are running a spell damage or miracle deck. So, you are better off running the card you actually wanted to draw in place of them. That's why the fact that they only replace themselves is a bad thing. For many of the other class cards you've mentioned, the cards themselves have useful effects in their own right.
Shiv - Deal 1 damage draw one card for two mana. Compare to Mortal Coil - Deal 1 damage draw one card if minion dies for one mana. Mortal Coil's conditional rarely sets it back since both cards are used to finish off a minion anyway. 90% of the time, Mortal Coil is plain better.
Fan of Knives - Deal 1 damage to all enemy minions draw one card for 3 mana. Compare to Arcane Explosion - Deal 1 damage to all enemy minions for 1 mana (and even then it is not good enough for mages to want to run it). You are paying 2+ mana for one card draw.
That makes no sense at all. If the body is not the point then why have that card in your deck? Instead of drawing that "pointless" body so that it could (maybe) help you draw another card that actually had a point, you would have immediately drawn the other card.
To get that combo you need to run Prep in your deck (thereby taking up a slot for other cards) and wait till you have both cards in your hand. This simply worsens the problem that I mentioned earlier of having only one card as your source of card draw, since it might get buried beneath your deck. Now you need TWO cards to get your card draw.
so regarding your shiv example: it's not what you plan to do with your Cards. it's the Card text together with your class that defines the Price.
i mean: don't you think that it would be a Little bit unfair if a rogue would pay 1 mana to deal 1 damage and draw 1 Card without any prerequisites while the warlock has to kill something? also the warlock can only target minions while the rogue can target everything. i think this clearly better Card should cost more.
fan of knives: well yeah. this one Card costs me 2 mana but again: other classes are so much worse in Card draw mechanics.
Let's take warrior again: 2 mana for 2 damage and only Card draw if the enemy survives. Battle rage: one Card for two mana... IF you are damaged. more Cards only IF there are damaged minions.
Mage draws two Cards for 3 mana. the rogue draws only 1 but has the Chance to damage and potentially kill a minion in the same turn (if we are in turn 3)
The shaman don't has a reliable Card draw engine at all (far sight only thins out my deck and with luck let me take the three mana spent into another turn... if the drawn Card only costs 1 than i ultimatley paid more for that Card as if i had drawn it anyways...) and the totem... well... silence, damage, removal...)
Rogue is fine atm. If you are going to do some college tournaments and have to play Rogue, you can turn to the old-fashioned Backspace Burn with Sharpsword Oil. I just couldn't see other way out right at this version. In response to the poor drawing, you must employ some extreme cards like Coldlight Oracle and Sprint.
And the hero power of Rogue is not as weak as you decribe. It creates a permanent like Paladin's and Shaman's, and you can use it right away. It's weak in the late game but strong in the first half. So the only reasonable solution is to go burn and aggro so that the game is short enough.
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Ok people I used to be one of u guys who feels rogue is the worst class and that since rogue got very few good new cards that class was unplayable. Last season a player hit rank 1 legend on EU server. I checked out the deck made a few changes and tested it on ladder. I have climbed from rank 11 to rank 3. Prep, Sprint, fan, and shiv give huge card draw and the tempo that can be gained using preparation is tremendous. I feel this new style of Rogue is much stronger than miracle. You can check out my decklist under my username. Trust me rogue is still quite a good class.
Time is precious. Waste it wisely. Legend Seasons: 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 17
Current deck: Not playing much anymore
Highest rank: legend rank 9 Highest finish: legend rank 103 Infinite Arena Player
Not being able to hero power as well when u have a weapon equipped is such a big handicap as well. Other classes are able to armor up heal or do some form of damage, rogue is left waiting to use the weapon before it can hero power again. It is a lousy hero power especially in late game as well it must be said.
Main problem i see is weak hero power and lousy class cards in GvG. Sure Goblin auto barber is a good card but it's a 2 mana card that really cant be used till turn 3 if u want to get the full potential out of it. Also feel like right now i am running Rag and Boom in my deck and i just dont have enough late game stuff to finish my opponent.
Rogue is just not in a great place atm and it is too weapon dependant imo, one harrison and your game can be just over where as other weapon classes can recover Rogue just dont seem to be able too have the tools to just get over the line.
While I do agree that rogue is in a bad spot right now, I certainly wouldn't pin point their hero power as one of the culprits. Card draw is an issue and I don't necessarily believe Auctioneer was nerfed just because of miracle rogue, but instead nerfed because with spare parts, it would have just turned insane and unfortunately one of the best rogue builds had to suffer because of that. With that said, I did play a couple individuals were were running an older school version of miracle with the 6 mana auctioneers and it still wasn't that bad, they just started the card draw a turn later than before, wasn't really that insanely different.
I've got to agree with Brohanro, somewhat. I actually am not a big fan of that deck (I don't like shiv/fan and would rather run Loot Hoarder and other draw) but have been experimenting with similar ideas. The biggest problem is that Rogue was the only class that needs to innovate with very little to build on. Hunter is still running agro with a deathrattle focus, Warriors are control, Warlocks are zoo and hand. Mage saw a big change but it wasn't exactly a new playstyle. It was a refining of aggro with the most obvious mechanic in GvG.
Rogues are starting from scratch and imo should create the standard for midrange decks in HS. If built correctly they can manage against aggro and burst for 15+ unexpected damage against control. That kind of potential is amazing but needs to be well refined. Look at Shaman. Rogue should be played very similar and imo have better tools to do so.
Imo rogue doesn't need a rework. Our approach to rogue needs a rework.
That is ... a very interesting deck. Given that you're the designer of the deck, could you tell me/us how good this deck have been doing? No offense but I just simply can't imagine this kind of deck works. You've 17 minions in the deck, so Gnomish Experimenter will give you a Chicken more than half of the time. You may able to make a ridiculously huge Edwin VanCleef or Questing Adventurer but the deck doesn't play Conceal means that your opponent will have initiative to remove it with his hard removal or BGH. If you don't get your VanCleef or Questing to hit your opponent's face, you have no other way to efficiently finish your opponent off. Again, I just have really hard time visioning how this deck works, but it's a really interesting concept. I think I'll give it a try to see how it works.
Meta changes the moment you switch your deck.
I've been playing around with it around ranks 8~7 and I'd say that my win ratio is around 50%-ish. There are three key minions to the deck: violet teacher, questing adventurer, and gnomish experimenter. While it may hurt to turn your violet teacher into a chicken, you're often playing so fast that you don't really care. Just finish off your opponent's minions and keep the cards drawing. Once you can manage to play a violet teacher, go hard with the spells to make tokens. Use the tokens to keep board control and give you a turn or so to plop a gadgetzan, questing adventurer, or edwin. The deck is a bit of a glass cannon, as I either win at turn 8-ish or lose to 'no deck' turn 14-ish. The hard removal of the deck btw is the Sap, as you really only need to slow the opponent down to get your final damage in.
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I was definitely not saying it was anyones "fault". I wasn't blaming anyone. I was saying that it obviously is underpowered in the way that we are trying to use it but that there may be other ways to use it. Maybe I'm wrong and Rogue just sucks. Or maybe we are going about it all wrong and once we find our niche, we will explode. There are definitely strong cards and synergies in the Rogue cardpool and there are terrible cards, just like every other class cardpool. We are limiting ourselves if we just say its impossible to make a good deck instead of trying to find an archetype that incorporates the good cards and synergies. Right now people are saying Rogue can only be played certain ways without attempting other ways to play. I'm just saying lets give those others ways a chance before we dismiss it as impossible.