Hearthpwn

I'm not here to say skill isn't a factor, but if you don't have the legendaries you are forced to play Zoo or aggro Hunter to be competitive if that's what you want. And if you don't want to be competitive (which I don't care about) then you either hover at ranks 14-16 or play casual. If you want to try control or mid-range without having many legendaries, you are going to get legend stomped. It is frustrating not having many other options. I just play Arena for that reason.

To explain more if you care why I don't want to try for Legendary. You need to memorize the other Meta decks. That part isn't hard. Then you need to memorize their ideal starting hand. And what your ideal starting hand is against them. Personally, it gets more and more mechanical for me. Like long uninterruptable combos in a fighting game. To be competitive it is necessary, but it makes it feel like work for me. I want to build a deck (which I am pretty good at) and play some other people that just built a deck for fun, with a similar card pool. I'll gladly leave higher ranked play to those that want a different experience.

Quote from Lametastic »

To explain more if you care why I don't want to try for Legendary. You need to memorize the other Meta decks. That part isn't hard. Then you need to memorize their ideal starting hand. And what your ideal starting hand is against them. Personally, it gets more and more mechanical for me. Like long uninterruptable combos in a fighting game. To be competitive it is necessary, but it makes it feel like work for me.

This is the point of legend. It is supposed to be "work", skill and effort. Not a free reward. This is why it gives you a sense of achievement to reach it, and why it is fun to go for it.

Quote from H2050 »

It's the first 10 cards that decide most games, especially against aggro. The more tournaments you watch, the more you understand the "luck" factor matters more than you think.

The only caveat is that most players in tournaments are considered professional; with this their skill levels are roughly the same. When skill is the same, you are correct that luck becomes more of a deciding factor. OP was talking about casual mode though I believe

Quote from Equal1ty »

Quote from Lametastic »

To explain more if you care why I don't want to try for Legendary. You need to memorize the other Meta decks. That part isn't hard. Then you need to memorize their ideal starting hand. And what your ideal starting hand is against them. Personally, it gets more and more mechanical for me. Like long uninterruptable combos in a fighting game. To be competitive it is necessary, but it makes it feel like work for me.

This is the point of legend. It is supposed to be "work", skill and effort. Not a free reward. This is why it gives you a sense of achievement to reach it, and why it is fun to go for it.

That's fine that you feel that way. For me it's a game, and the achievement is making a great play in a deck I actually made. Not a title. That commitment might be for you, but it isn't for everyone, or even the majority. Finding a balance between top tier players, those who want to be, and then the 80% of other players is necessary. They are struggling with that right now.

My point was that even though I had access to any meta deck I want (I played a lot of arenas and did all my dailies when I started to have those cards) and I was even playing control warrior which is a deck I enjoy I decided that dirt-cheap face hunter was a better deck for my situation. And as I said, it was anecdotal evidence.

Also, OP, please stop with the straw man fallacies. Nobody said you're supposed to play War Golem against your opponents Dr. Boom. You're supposed to play Undertakers and Leper Gnomes or Flame Imps and Knife Junglers or Hexes and Fire Elementals. And not to disappoint you, but rank 14 isn't competitive. Of course Blizzard wants you to believe you're an amazing player, but as far as I know they didn't say how many of those accounts were active and how many ranked games they ever played (a lot of people stick to casual and only play enough for the cardback since there is no incentive to climb the ladder).

Anyway, I said what I wanted to say, I'm not going to insist. Yes, it might suck for some new players if they get into the game and instantly believe it's pay-to-win, but on the other hand I know a bunch of casual players and after some time they end up playing against similarly terrible players with non-optimized decks (which is what MMR is supposed to do).

It's casual, so I take it litterally!   I have some very strange deck I like to play in casual, like one with simply most of my legendary (I think there's 9 in that deck!) and some glue to try to hold it around. It's a really, really bad deck, but sometime, things fall into place, and when I win, I may end up with 4 or even 5 legendary on the board before the final blow.  The deck has a 35%-40% win rate at best, but it's fun to play, and I'm sure the 60% players that crush me, and tear apart all those legendaries have fun.  I suspect I'm not alone having fun that way, in casual.

Quote from honj90 »

My point was that even though I had access to any meta deck I want (I played a lot of arenas and did all my dailies when I started to have those cards) and I was even playing control warrior which is a deck I enjoy I decided that dirt-cheap face hunter was a better deck for my situation. And as I said, it was anecdotal evidence.

Also, OP, please stop with the straw man fallacies. Nobody said you're supposed to play War Golem against your opponents Dr. Boom. You're supposed to play Undertakers and Leper Gnomes or Flame Imps and Knife Junglers or Hexes and Fire Elementals. And not to disappoint you, but rank 14 isn't competitive. Of course Blizzard wants you to believe you're an amazing player, but as far as I know they didn't say how many of those accounts were active and how many ranked games they ever played (a lot of people stick to casual and only play enough for the cardback since there is no incentive to climb the ladder).

Anyway, I said what I wanted to say, I'm not going to insist. Yes, it might suck for some new players if they get into the game and instantly believe it's pay-to-win, but on the other hand I know a bunch of casual players and after some time they end up playing against similarly terrible players with non-optimized decks (which is what MMR is supposed to do).

My whole Point is that im NOT trying to be competetive i was trying to complete a warrior Daily on my two week old acount in CASUAL and got pitted vs complete legendary decks (Control warrior etc decks) and with the limited amount of dust ive aquired in those weeks being a casual player i spent trying to make a fairly competetive mage deck.

Anyway im not gonna keep spending my time trying to convince you all cause i feel it´s like talking to a brick wall, lets agree that we disagree.

I´ll take the advice and spend some time conceding my way through 20-30 games now if anyone is looking for some easy wins, so the next time i que up to complete some dailies i´m hoping for some competition with roughly the same cardpool as my own account.

It's always the same, they see the word legendary and start saying things like "legendaries aren't so good" , "you can just play zoo and be competitive" and so on but they just totally miss the point. The things they say do make sense only it's not what the TS is complaining about.

It's no fun for a new player to get his ass kicked all day in casual ( a non competitive mode). Of course they will loose games because they are not good enough (and shouldn't blame everything except themselves) but they will also loose a lot of games just because they got matched against players that have invested enough time and/or money to have a lot of cards. Those players aren't always good but they can just netdeck a really good deck and even if they don't play it that good they still win their fair amount of games.

I also hate it when people are bragging it's still easy to hit legendary with a F2P deck after Naxx and GvG because it isn't. The real F2P decks aren't good enough. For sure somebody will post a link where somebody did it after the release of GvG but i'm pretty certain that player wasn't a new player or a player with average skills.

If you want to see new players keep on playing the game there have to be some adjustments. Not saying give them everything on a silver platter but also don't kick their ass all day.

I also hate it when people are bragging it's still easy to hit legendary with a F2P deck after Naxx and GvG because it isn't. The real F2P decks aren't good enough. For sure somebody will post a link where somebody did it after the release of GvG but i'm pretty certain that player wasn't a new player or a player with average skills.

But people with decks without a lot cards and only average skill have no place in legendary ranks. That's kinda the point. A new player with only the basic cards and average skill will probably get to an average rang. 

If you want more you have to work for it and grind your gold, buy packs or play arena. Either you get good at the game or you don't. 

If you do get good, grind enough to build a zoo or a hunter you can hit legendary in let's say 2 weeks? Mabye a month? F2P does only mean you have to be either better than average or invest more time to achieve what other people do.

It is not the legendaries, it is you being inferior end of story

Well, getting good needs a clever player at the other end. I am the worst of the worst and do have good decks and have played 6 metas now. If you suck, you suck. If your place is rank 20, your place is rank 20. Back in the days, I thought it were my cards, no, it is me being an imbecile.

Thau

Well since no one has brought up Trump's F2P series on his stream and his youtube channel, I guess I will. Trump is a great player and tries to limit the amount of mistakes he makes. He proved that you can get to legend in about 40-50 hours with a F2P deck. He did this with mage, shaman and warlock (but this ended up as zoo so he never uploaded it to youtube). If you think that winning is about having big legendaries, your wrong and probably a mediocre player at best. If you are as good as Trump then you should easily be able to make it to legend with a F2P deck given you have the time to spare and the patience.

And just a word on causal mode: It's constructed without ranks, get over it.

Well, you know, good players learn, bad players whine....

Quote from Duranoar »

I also hate it when people are bragging it's still easy to hit legendary with a F2P deck after Naxx and GvG because it isn't. The real F2P decks aren't good enough. For sure somebody will post a link where somebody did it after the release of GvG but i'm pretty certain that player wasn't a new player or a player with average skills.

But people with decks without a lot cards and only average skill have no place in legendary ranks. That's kinda the point. A new player with only the basic cards and average skill will probably get to an average rang. 

If you want more you have to work for it and grind your gold, buy packs or play arena. Either you get good at the game or you don't. 

If you do get good, grind enough to build a zoo or a hunter you can hit legendary in let's say 2 weeks? Mabye a month? F2P does only mean you have to be either better than average or invest more time to achieve what other people do.

Where do i say you don't have to put in effort?

I'm only saying that people bragging with their basic deck BS doesn't make sense. It's not a good argument.

Quote from Wolfino99 »

Well since no one has brought up Trump's F2P series on his stream and his youtube channel, I guess I will. Trump is a great player and tries to limit the amount of mistakes he makes. He proved that you can get to legend in about 40-50 hours with a F2P deck. He did this with mage, shaman and warlock (but this ended up as zoo so he never uploaded it to youtube). If you think that winning is about having big legendaries, your wrong and probably a mediocre player at best. If you are as good as Trump then you should easily be able to make it to legend with a F2P deck given you have the time to spare and the patience.

And just a word on causal mode: It's constructed without ranks, get over it.

Trump series is before naxx and GvG and that's a big difference not to mention Trump is a way better player than most new players.  His youtube channel and stream are really good for better insights in the game.

And maybe you should read where he's "whining" about because that's that casual is constructed without ranks and therefor you face people who are better players and/or have better decks. Of course he has to look in to the mirror and see his own mistakes but i agree with him that it's difficult to enjoy a game if you get your ass kicked all the time.

Why do people have this idea that casual should mean "I should win at least 50% of the time with any deck I choose to play, no matter how familiar I am with it". I never have a problem in Casual. You know why? Because I didn't ruin my MMR by playing a bunch of casual games when I was too scared to ruin my ranking. If you're at a less prestigious rank than "5", you shouldn't care at all about your ranking. You can sit down some time and winstreak it back if you're that good.

Pre-Naxx I got to a highish ranking with a junky Priest deck that I liked playing. I probably could have got there sooner if I had played a T1 competitive deck, but there's not a dichotomy between "Have money for cards" and "Play zoo or hunter".

I haven't played Casual in months, only Ranked because then every win matters. People play competitive decks in both and for some reason I face far more golden lgndry CW and "turn 5 Doomguard zoo wins again" decks in Casual. At least on the ladder you're matched against those of roughly the same experience 9 out of 10 times. As for lgndrys, everybody who's been playing more than a few weeks has at least a few, and if your games last longer than 8 turns you're going to see some. That's where BGH and Mind Control come in to deal with them.

Quote from reservedforoffense »

Quote from Lametastic »

Quote from Equal1ty »

Quote from Lametastic »

To explain more if you care why I don't want to try for Legendary. You need to memorize the other Meta decks. That part isn't hard. Then you need to memorize their ideal starting hand. And what your ideal starting hand is against them. Personally, it gets more and more mechanical for me. Like long uninterruptable combos in a fighting game. To be competitive it is necessary, but it makes it feel like work for me.

This is the point of legend. It is supposed to be "work", skill and effort. Not a free reward. This is why it gives you a sense of achievement to reach it, and why it is fun to go for it.

That's fine that you feel that way. For me it's a game, and the achievement is making a great play in a deck I actually made. Not a title. That commitment might be for you, but it isn't for everyone, or even the majority. Finding a balance between top tier players, those who want to be, and then the 80% of other players is necessary. They are struggling with that right now.

then only relevant distinction isn't between the pros and the majority but between those that buy and those that dont. im pretty sure that the buying players dont have a problem with what is being discussed here.

You need to keep the majority playing FOR those paying a lot. If the player base drops too low, the game falls apart. Those paying more are kinda hiring those that don't pay. This partially applies to new players as well.

Quote from LolBapper »

It's always the same, they see the word legendary and start saying things like "legendaries aren't so good" , "you can just play zoo and be competitive" and so on but they just totally miss the point. The things they say do make sense only it's not what the TS is complaining about.

It's no fun for a new player to get his ass kicked all day in casual ( a non competitive mode). Of course they will loose games because they are not good enough (and shouldn't blame everything except themselves) but they will also loose a lot of games just because they got matched against players that have invested enough time and/or money to have a lot of cards. Those players aren't always good but they can just netdeck a really good deck and even if they don't play it that good they still win their fair amount of games.

I also hate it when people are bragging it's still easy to hit legendary with a F2P deck after Naxx and GvG because it isn't. The real F2P decks aren't good enough. For sure somebody will post a link where somebody did it after the release of GvG but i'm pretty certain that player wasn't a new player or a player with average skills.

If you want to see new players keep on playing the game there have to be some adjustments. Not saying give them everything on a silver platter but also don't kick their ass all day.

http://loseloose.com/

New players should start in ranked to get an even matching, this has been already discussed. And if you play a lot of casual your MMR will adjust to your skill over time. This can still mean that you will face people with some legendary cards, in that case they are equally bad as you and they also have the same low MMR if you have played enough games for the algorythm to work well.

Also the distinction between payers and non-payers is bad. Everyone pays, either time or money, because free to play only means that you can choose to buy cards or slowly collect them. There are no other collectible card games that don't work like this, so any complaints regarding the money or time investment is dumb. Blizzard is generous with their free to play model, if you started early enough you can be competetive without investing a penny and even if you pay it costs you way less than in MtG. In a lot of other similar games you are forced to pay a lot of money to just be able to compete. Not in HS. But this is off topic and not closely related to legend cards being played in casual.